EU Antitrust Chief Warns Apple About App Store Fees and Safety Warnings

[Amazing Iceman]

By the time all this gets implemented, the EU may dissolve.
Perhaps Apple should allow them to install whatever they want, and charge them a fee to reset their virus infested devices.
Once users realize how unsafe and bad support have the 3rd party AppStores, they will return to Apple: Safe, Secure, hassle free. There have been times when I requested a refund to Apple, and they handled it very quickly.

 

[hans1972]

Some people seem to forget that the “they wouldn’t have been successful” thing cuts both ways. Does anyone imagine the iPhone would still be here if devs had flocked to BlackBerry instead?

But why didn't developers flock to Blackberry? Or Windows mobile? Or Symbian?
They're all presents for many years before the App Store.

 

[surferfb]

I just gave two examples, Epic/Set App, which means there are more than one alt store. It is not for Apple to worry about the security of the Apps on the alt store. The store owners will worry about them or face the consequences. There is nothing for DMA to hide. Under DMA, it is not Apple's job to worry about the app security in the alt stores.

And if you think the media will make that distinction when there is a huge security incident then I have a bridge to sell you. The headline will be "iPhone hack compromises user data"

 

[vipergts2207]

It does answer the question. Did the EU say 30% commissions were unfair? No. Did the EU say that certain price levels for apps were unfair? No.

No it doesn't. My question isn't about whether the commissions are unfair or price levels for apps are unfair. It's about your implication that operating a smartphone platform like a PC platform will raise app prices. Thus far, you've been unable to explain that logic. To refer to your original statement:

The EU is demanding that mobile phones operate like desktop/laptop computers. In other words, they want to go backwards in time to a platform that is known for higher prices and lower security.

 

[Beautyspin]

What is the benefit of the DMA supposed to be beyond interoperability and the option to do an alt store or web store? It doesn't actually set standards for fees or commissions or prices. For example: if Apple undercut all other alt store or web store terms what would the EU do? Would that be considered anticompetitive too?

The DMA is asking for actions from Apple to make it easy for developers "to use the benefits of the DMA."

Is loss leader pricing illegal? This pricing strategy is illegal in some European countries and Australia. In the US, it has been banned in several states like Oklahoma, California, and Colorado. Loss leading is anti-competitive and can negatively affect customers.

 

[ct2k7]

Just have no App Store in the EU and tell their customers to signup a new Apple ID under a US account if they want an App Store. **** these people.

What's the point of that?

 

[jarman92]

Explain it to me then.

I'm pretty sure I understand how Apples lawyers are mangling it to justify the CTF. They are reading it to mean that "interoperability is required to have the same level of access as Apples own apps" and that that (same level of access) is provided "free of charge". Rather than "interoperability is free of charge" and "interoperability is required to have the same level of access as Apples own apps". It's smart, but it isn't what the law intends (spirit of the law), and they aren't even really complying with their own interpretation unless they themselves were paying the CTF for their own default apps, which isn't possible unless App Store sales in the EU were to be routed through an EU intermediary, but they'd never be able to balance those numbers without the EU intermediary going bankrupt.

The fact that you seem to understand how impossibly vague and capricious this regulation is yet are defending it with citations to the elusive “spirit of the law,” as if that doesn’t just mean “Vestager will interpret it however she wants to maximize fines and PR wins,” is absolutely blowing my mind.

 

[Beautyspin]

Gruber makes a pretty compelling argument that Apple has been told that the Core Technology Fee is allowable. Of course that doesn't mean the EU can't change their mind.

From the article:

Yeah. Even I was surprised with Gruber's conclusion because all along Vestager and Thiery Breton have been telling that any impediments to alt appstores will not be tolerated. It is there even in the interview Vestager gave on March 7th. Wishful thinking from a long-term Apple shill, I guess.

 

[gnipgnop]

The customers can decide. They simply download apps from the AppStore, exactly the same way they do now. This system has existed since the beginning on the Mac and nobody’s complaining…

And closed platforms existed since Nintendo launched the NES in 1985. You can't really make an argument about "it's always been that way" when closed platforms existed in parallel with things like the Macintosh.

 

[hans1972]

My Mac seems safe and reliable. Well other than the hardware issue every single one has had. GPU on the first, GPU on the second, and keyboard on the third.

Then you should ask yourself why Apple has closed down macOS for over 10 years now.
It's because the open nature of OS X wasn't safe enough.

 

[gnipgnop]

No it doesn't. My question isn't about whether the commissions are unfair or price levels for apps are unfair. It's about your implication that operating a smartphone platform like a PC platform will raise app prices. Thus far, you've been unable to explain that logic. To refer to your original statement:

Are desktop/laptop app prices higher? Yes. Are other closed platform app prices higher? Yes. Your argument that it can't be about raising prices isn't supported by any known popular platform.

 

[wanha]

Companies can tolerate only so much overregulation before exiting an unprofitable market.

True, but $100 billion in yearly revenue from the EU means that Apple (i.e. Apple's shareholders) are going to tolerate a lot more over-regulation

 

[Beautyspin]

And if you think the media will make that distinction when there is a huge security incident then I have a bridge to sell you. The headline will be "iPhone hack compromises user data"

This actually supports my point. The alt stores cannot be lax like Apple. They do not have any other choice than be better than Apple. Apple could get away with mediocrity, but not the alt appstores. Thanks for reinforcing my argument.

 

[bcortens]

Yeah. Even I was surprised with Gruber's conclusion because all along Vestager and Thiery Breton have been telling that any impediments to alt appstores will not be tolerated. It is there even in the interview Vestager gave on March 7th. Wishful thinking from a long-term Apple shill, I guess.

Gruber seems to be very pro big corporation lately. For example, he seems to think that requiring companies to stop tracking of users without their consent is some horrible thing that we should view the EU poorly for (Daring Fireball: REUTERS: ‘EU’S VESTAGER WARNS ABOUT APPLE, META FEES, DISPARAGING RIVAL PRODUCTS’ )

 

[gnipgnop]

The DMA is asking for actions from Apple to make it easy for developers "to use the benefits of the DMA."

Is loss leader pricing illegal? This pricing strategy is illegal in some European countries and Australia. In the US, it has been banned in several states like Oklahoma, California, and Colorado. Loss leading is anti-competitive and can negatively affect customers.

Epic's current store is a loss leader. They already testified in a court case that their 12% commission was not profitable.

 

[hans1972]

From the start Apple built something that was meant to be as easy and intuitive as iPod was and that helped drive it forward. [...] Ease of use did.

So the success of the iPhone was largely dependent of Apple and not developers then?

 

[vipergts2207]

But why didn't developers flock to Blackberry? Or Windows mobile? Or Symbian?
They're all presents for many years before the App Store.

Small, business-oriented userbase using unsophisticated devices. What do you imagine they should've been doing under such a paradigm?

 

[bcortens]

So the success of the iPhone was largely dependent of Apple and not developers then?

Don't change the subject, the point I was responding to was that the iPhone was successful because it was closed. I think Apple's UX design (pre-iOS 7) was critical to its success. Developer support became important later but wasn't key to its early success.

 

[wanha]

EU users who don’t like this should move to china where apple doesn’t bow to government pressure….

Are you not against some things in the country you live in... or are you planning a move abroad anytime soon?

 

[surferfb]

This actually supports my point. The alt stores cannot be lax like Apple. They do not have any other choice than be better than Apple. Apple could get away with mediocrity, but not the alt appstores. Thanks for reinforcing my argument.

"Apple will get blamed for third-party App Store hack" doesn't reinforce your argument that third party app stores will have to be better than Apple; it refutes it.

Also, why are you assuming all third party app stores are going to be rational, safe actors? You don't think China or Russia might have reason to spin up a third party App Store and trick users into downloading apps that compromise security and/or privacy?

 

[Beautyspin]

Epic's current store is a loss leader. They already testified in a court case that their 12% commission was not profitable.

I do not play games, Epic or otherwise, so I cannot say for sure.

"Yes, Epic Games Store's free games are legal demos that you can buy from other stores. The games are yours to keep forever, even after they are no longer available to new customers for free."

Is this true?

 

[b4rtw]

You make no sense. Obviously you are sipping the EU cool aid. ✌️

You sippin' the Apple cool aid?

 

[b4rtw]

Companies can tolerate only so much overregulation before exiting an unprofitable market.

Unprofitable market? Lol

As if profits solely depend on the App Store

 

[wanha]

For people depending Apple and their supposed right to tax all software on iOS because "reasons", I really really hope Apple bring it to macOS to learn how they like it.

I love buying software for my Mac through the App Store.

The single biggest limitation is that Mac App Store apps are sandboxed, which means there are certain app categories that cannot exist within the App Store (Little Snitch, for example).

Before you jump up and yell "Gotcha!", I hold the same opinion with the iOS App Store, too.

If Apple insist on having a proprietary App Store, they should open it up for ALL app categories and only monitor against malware, scam, and otherwise illegal apps instead of being the moral police.

IMO the single best part of the EU DMA act is that we get alternative app stores and thus access to apps apple thought were "immoral" or otherwise not allowed.

However, what I am strongly against is forcing Apple to give access to their platform to for-profit companies (Epic, Spotify, etc) for zero cost.

What other industry would we be okay with that? And what kind of precedent does it set?

 

[gnipgnop]

I do not play games, Epic or otherwise, so I cannot say for sure.

"Yes, Epic Games Store's free games are legal demos that you can buy from other stores. The games are yours to keep forever, even after they are no longer available to new customers for free."

Is this true?

You don't need to say anything. Epic testified in court that the store was currently unprofitable with a 12% commission. I guess there is the possibility that they're perjuring themselves with that statement.