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So if customers in the EU have other alternatives, then why is the EU forcing Apple to be like all the others? If EU users want something different, they should use one of the alternatives! You said it yourself...there are alternatives. If that's true, then the EU should stop their incessant meddling and let the customers decide!
The iOS developers and iOS customers have no alternatives within the iOS platform. That is why.
 
That doesn't answer the question of why they would raise the price they're charging consumers though. Devs aren't lobbying the government to raise prices. They're lobbying the government to not be beholden to Apple and their platform fees. Those are two completely different things. I'll ask again, how will letting a dev keep the 30% Apple had been taking cause them to raise the price of their product?
It does answer the question. Did the EU say 30% commissions were unfair? No. Did the EU say that certain price levels for apps were unfair? No.
 
If iOS was open I wouldn't have picked iOS. I would most likely not have bought a smartphone to begin with. Apple phones are quite expensive and offer quality user experience. Something no open system ever had. On Windows: you'd better install 5 virusscanners and you may be safe, Android riddled with malware as well, Mac OS a bit safer because by default third party installs are blocked, Linux <1% of global (desktop) userbase, and not user friendly to begin with.

iOS is just a lot better than all of them. Because you have a very advanced system that is designed to protect you.

On iOS I chose to not have a lot of freedom for security. That's my choice.
did you ever or do you own a computer? You know those are open right?
 
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Maybe you should quote the entirety of point 7?

"7. The gatekeeper shall allow providers of services and providers of hardware, free of charge, effective interoperability with, and access for the purposes of interoperability to, the same hardware and software features accessed or controlled via the operating system or virtual assistant listed in the designation decision pursuant to Article 3(9) as are available to services or hardware provided by the gatekeeper.

Furthermore, the gatekeeper shall allow business users and alternative providers of services provided together with, or in support of, core platform services, free of charge, effective interoperability with, and access for the purposes of interoperability to, the same operating system, hardware or software features, regardless of whether those features are part of the operating system, as are available to, or used by, that gatekeeper when providing such services.

The gatekeeper shall not be prevented from taking strictly necessary and proportionate measures to ensure that interoperability does not compromise the integrity of the operating system, virtual assistant, hardware or software features provided by the gatekeeper, provided that such measures are duly justified by the gatekeeper."

It's about interoperability. Apple's core platform fee isn't a fee to gain access to the hardware or software features. That's why it's not entirely clear whether it's complaint or not.

You notice that Vestager doesn't say the fee is illegal.
Well, actually she says it here.


""There are things that we take a keen interest in, for instance, if the new Apple fee structure will de facto not make it in any way attractive to use the benefits of the DMA. That kind of thing is what we will be investigating," she told Reuters in an interview."
 
Cool. Thanks for letting me know not to believe anything else you say.

I never owned an Android smartphone (personally). And all the time I have to use one professionally makes me very happy about my choice. Before I bought the iPhone 6, which was my first, I had a Windows Phone. WP was a lot more open than iOS is, but not completely. It was a lot more closed off than Windows on PC. (strangely, the same thing with iOS and MacOS)

By the time Microsoft stopped making Windows Phone, I had a choice: go back to using a dumb phone (old Nokia) or buy into the Apple ecosystem or go Android. That was the first time I ever tried Android, and very quickly created my opinion about it (which holds to this day), I already owned an iPad and iPod Touch. So I bough the iPhone 6.
 
And then there is the smartphone that sits in the middle. the "trailblazer" of the App Store. Apple did the work, created a huge user base. And if you want access to that user base you should have to pay for it. you can argue that the 30% is exorbitant. but what number is OK. you and I cant really make that call we dont have access to the numbers to justify that.
Its largely about the end user not being able to install whatever they want though rather than developers. The 15% cut is a fair one. Its not like Heinz don't pay Walmart a commission on stocking groceries. I'm not really that bothered by a lack of sideloading on iOS but having a company tell you what you can and cannot do with your property is not cool.

Enterprising developers managed to circumvent Nintendo's licencing and release games without their stamp of approval like UK dev powerhouse Codemasters. They also built the Game Genie cheat cart as well which Nintendo tried to ban.

The difference with consoles though is that whilst their respective digital portals have a monopoly on sales I as a consumer have the option of buying physical games from a variety of retailers. Its not like iOS takes carts!

The reason mobile phones should have a single app portal though is because phones contain a lot more personal data than a computer does and security is a lot more important.
 
did you ever or do you own a computer? You know those are open right?

I own multiple. But I use my computers very differently from my phone. And that is exactly why I'm against this. I treat every computer as a potential spy. I lock all outgoing ports, I disable and tape over every camera and microphone, I run every app in a fully sandboxed environment, I have multiple antivirus, antimalware and antitracking installed. On multiple levels even.

I don't want to do this to my phone. Because that would render it useless.
 
I'm sure you've held on to the first gen iPhone for many years
I still use the apps I purchased for it that were never available on Android to begin with. Whilst nobody is holding a gun to my head I rely on a library of software I have spent 16 years building. I am, by my own volition locked in to iOS. We don't buy handsets as stand alone hardware but rather as empty shells for our operating system of choice. I've made my bed and now lie in it but I couldn't move to Android even if I wanted to.
 
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How do you know that the alt store doesn't have better security? Appstore has 2 million Apps. Set App/Epic will probably have a handful. Who do you think can vet the apps better? Appstore can get away with scam apps because it has captive audience. Not so with Alt Appstores.
There isn't a single alt store. There will be multiple alt stores and multiple web based stores. And the DMA doesn't set a security standard. So saying there is a risk is true. Why would the EU want to hide that truth from customers?
 
Well, actually she says it here.


""There are things that we take a keen interest in, for instance, if the new Apple fee structure will de facto not make it in any way attractive to use the benefits of the DMA. That kind of thing is what we will be investigating," she told Reuters in an interview."
Gruber makes a pretty compelling argument that Apple has been told that the Core Technology Fee is allowable. Of course that doesn't mean the EU can't change their mind.

From the article:

Pushed again on the CTF, Apple re-asserts that it is fully compliant with the DMA. It isn’t charging an additional fee for interoperability, but compensation for technologies that it was previously monetising through its original model (effectively tolling digital app sales).
We know from today’s workshop that (a) Apple has already gotten specific pushback from the EC on aspects of its DMA compliance plan; and (b) Apple continues to think the CTF is perfectly cromulent under the terms of the DMA. That to me says the CTF is going to fly. The idea that the entire CTF is disallowed under the DMA is an argument that the DMA disallows a company from monetizing access to its own platform and IP. EC fans may be surprised to hear this but the EC is a capitalist body. I really don’t think they want to send a message to the world that the EU will strip companies of their own platforms. As Jebelli writes in an aside in his thread:

It’s pretty incredible if you take a step back, in what other industry do entire regulatory frameworks pop up to address a dispute between different businesses over the question of “Why can’t I have gratuitous access to this infrastructure, at zero cost to myself?”
 
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Did you just do a Ctrl+F for the word “free?” Read the actual law, that’s not what that section means.
Explain it to me then.

I'm pretty sure I understand how Apples lawyers are mangling it to justify the CTF. They are reading it to mean that "interoperability is required to have the same level of access as Apples own apps" and that that (same level of access) is provided "free of charge". Rather than "interoperability is free of charge" and "interoperability is required to have the same level of access as Apples own apps". It's smart, but it isn't what the law intends (spirit of the law), and they aren't even really complying with their own interpretation unless they themselves were paying the CTF for their own default apps, which isn't possible unless App Store sales in the EU were to be routed through an EU intermediary.
 
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EU: "Customers need to be told inside the app about a different price for the app on the internet."
Also EU: "Customers don't need to be told inside the App Store about different security standards on the internet."
Apple shouldn't be forced to allow App Store apps link out in my opinion, the only reason that's happening is because they didn't self-regulate by allowing free external app installation under their own terms, now they're under a microscope and are having rules dictated to them.

They f-ed around and are now finding out.
 
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So if customers in the EU have other alternatives, then why is the EU forcing Apple to be like all the others? If EU users want something different, they should use one of the alternatives! You said it yourself...there are alternatives. If that's true, then the EU should stop their incessant meddling and let the customers decide!
The customers can decide. They simply download apps from the AppStore, exactly the same way they do now. This system has existed since the beginning on the Mac and nobody’s complaining…
 
Apple makes 25% of their total revenue in the EU, but only 7% of their app store revenue. They would still be very profitable even if they had zero profits from the app store in the EU.

No, about 25% of their revenue is from Europe, Middle East and Africa.

Yes, but a company like Apple, wouldn't say we can stay here because we're profitable elsewhere. Apple will look at the profitable of iPhone + services connected to iPhones.

One of the problem is that services revenue has a very high profit margin and with strong competition from Chinese brands in the EU on the hardware side, it could erode Apple's profit in the EU, long term.
 
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There isn't a single alt store. There will be multiple alt stores and multiple web based stores. And the DMA doesn't set a security standard. So saying there is a risk is true. Why would the EU want to hide that truth from customers?
I just gave two examples, Epic/Set App, which means there are more than one alt store. It is not for Apple to worry about the security of the Apps on the alt store. The store owners will worry about them or face the consequences. There is nothing for DMA to hide. Under DMA, it is not Apple's job to worry about the app security in the alt stores.
 
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Well, actually she says it here.


""There are things that we take a keen interest in, for instance, if the new Apple fee structure will de facto not make it in any way attractive to use the benefits of the DMA. That kind of thing is what we will be investigating," she told Reuters in an interview."
What is the benefit of the DMA supposed to be beyond interoperability and the option to do an alt store or web store? It doesn't actually set standards for fees or commissions or prices. For example: if Apple undercut all other alt store or web store terms what would the EU do? Would that be considered anticompetitive too?
 
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Yeah about that...
View attachment 2361024

Not even the letter of the law is being followed by Apple.

From https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32022R1925

That part of the DMA deals with interoperability. Apple's core platform fee isn't paid to get access to hardware and software features directly.

Which is why it's not entirely clear if it's legal or not.

If the EU finds the fee illegal, I don't think it will be for breaking Article 6, point 7.
 
I just gave two examples, Epic/Set App, which means there are more than one alt store. It is not for Apple to worry about the security of the Apps on the alt store. The store owners will worry about them or face the consequences. There is nothing for DMA to hide. Under DMA, it is not Apple's job to worry about the app security in the alt stores.
Apple isn't allowed to be concerned about their iPhone customers? That's bizarre.
 
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