EU: Facebook and Instagram's Infinite Scroll May Break Digital Rules

[turbineseaplane]

The fact a governing body is getting involved to this level of detail is absurd.

Is it really fundamentally different than regulating food safety?

I would say it's very similar actually.

Just because it's digital, doesn't mean it's not possibly very detrimental and like food it's something people are "ingesting" (visually and with motor control interaction and habituation.)

If we are going to have more and more "AI", we sure as shinola better get going on regulations around a lot of digital things, or society is going to collapse.

 

[I7guy]

If discipline and self-control were the answer, then "addiction" would not be an established clinical disorder.

Telling someone suffering from a form of addiction to "have more self-control" will not magically make the addiction disappear.

Additional regulating bars on bars and liquor stores is not going to make alcoholism go away.

 

[apparatchik]

I'm going to get hate for this but this just shows how out of touch the EU is:

"did not adequately assess the risks of their addictive design on the physical and mental wellbeing of users, including minors and vulnerable adults."

While I know addictive design is a thing, you can't expect every app maker out there to do some kind of risk assessment, it's just ridiculous to even think about it. The onus is on the end user to regulate themselves with whatever hobby they have.

Would you provide free drugs to children at their homes? Is it ok to promote a pound of sugar as breakfast to kids?

 

[NightFox]

I'm going to get hate for this but this just shows how out of touch the EU is:

"did not adequately assess the risks of their addictive design on the physical and mental wellbeing of users, including minors and vulnerable adults."

While I know addictive design is a thing, you can't expect every app maker out there to do some kind of risk assessment, it's just ridiculous to even think about it. The onus is on the end user to regulate themselves with whatever hobby they have.

And how's that working out?

 

[sw1tcher]

Meta should be happy the EU is giving them a heads up that their apps may have a design defect. This could help Meta avoid costly lawsuits from users. Meta has already been found guilty in 2 jury trials for defective apps.

Jury finds Meta and Google negligent in social media harms trial

The jury ordered the companies to pay $6 million in damages over defective design. The landmark verdict may influence the outcome of 2,000 other pending lawsuits.

www.npr.org

Jury finds Meta's platforms are harmful to children in 1st wave of social media addiction lawsuits

A New Mexico jury found Tuesday that social media conglomerate Meta is harmful to children's mental health and in violation of state consumer protection law. The case was among the first to reach trial in a wave of litigation involving social media platforms and their impacts on children.

www.pbs.org

 

[turbineseaplane]

Additional regulating bars on bars and liquor stores is not going to make alcoholism go away.

No, but it does reduce harm levels.
This has also been shown when advertising is reduced or constrained, as well as access.

I wish folks could appreciate that a desirable endgame for society and real human "people" is not to just let business run fully amok and have the chips fall where they may.

All of this is in our control.

People and our societies have made markets and allow and enable things to be as they are. We can also change them for the better and we should.

 

[PowerButton]

Hahaha, I can just see a South Park episode on this.

Mark: “How do we keep people on the app longer?”

Executive: “Easy. Make it so there’s no bottom.”

Mark: “So… they can never be done, Brilliant.”

Executive: “What should we call it?”

-Long pause-

Intern: “…Doomscrolling.”

-Everyone starts clapping-

-Cut to EU scene-

 

[NightFox]

This is not the EUs call. Not even close.

Regulatory leviathan.

Then seriously, whose call is it?

 

[GrumpyOldGuy52]

She was COMPLETELY doom scroll addicted. We weren't even able to watch a show or movie without her having the phone out and checking it and just "scrolling" for no discernible purpose often.

I'm a high school teacher. Honestly, I think phones have become really expensive fidget spinners—our attention is lost for a second, we grab the phone because we have nothing else to do till our attention refocuses. Then we see a notification, we get pulled into an app… and we're done for.

I have no social media on my phone (I'm working on not checking my newsfeeds as often). My screentime plummeted after I deleted my Facebook and Twitter accounts (I have an Instagram account, but it's only for school-related stuff and I don't post; I also have LinkedIn, but it's LinkedIn so... ), and I'm a much happier person because of it.

And for everyone saying "iT's teh paRenTs' reSponsIBILity!!!!!1!!!": The parents need help. They have no idea where to start or how. I don't know how many I've talked with who didn't know about the parental controls in the operating systems or the family functions in various social media apps. So, before you start talking out of your rear, start by working with your local school and volunteer to do some workshops showing parents how to lock down these devices. Otherwise, if you aren't willing to help, keep quiet.

 

[NightFox]

How dare Häagen-Dazs make their ice cream so delicious! I CAN'T CONTROL MYSELFZ!

REGULATE! REGULATE! REGULATE! SUE! SUE! SUE!

Ironic comment from somebody who, guessing by their user name, lives in a country with one of the highest death linked to obesity rates in the world

 

[Big_D]

I'm going to get hate for this but this just shows how out of touch the EU is:

"did not adequately assess the risks of their addictive design on the physical and mental wellbeing of users, including minors and vulnerable adults."

While I know addictive design is a thing, you can't expect every app maker out there to do some kind of risk assessment, it's just ridiculous to even think about it. The onus is on the end user to regulate themselves with whatever hobby they have.

No, it is exactly the thing they should be looking at when building their products… Well, actually, they do, which is why we have these problems, because instead of making them safer, they make them more addictive instead, because that is better for the short term profit of the comapny.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Honestly, I think phones have become really expensive fidget spinners—our attention is lost for a second, we grab the phone because we have nothing else to do till our attention refocuses. Then we see a notification, we get pulled into an app… and we're done for.

I'm totally with you. I've caught myself in the checkout line at a store, unable to stop myself from pulling out my phone for no actual reason ... just to tap and click a few things and scroll and put it away.

It's incredible and so disheartening when one realizes what they are doing. It makes one feel powerless and anxious, to be controlled by an addiction and/or addictive behavior.

I'm someone who is quite vulnerable to this stuff with my addictive tendencies and so I'm acutely aware of it. It took turning my world upside down to finally quit drinking 2.5 years ago, so this stuff is all very top of mind for me.

 

[AppleWes]

Is it really fundamentally different than regulating food safety?

Yes it is different. Government doesn't stop you from eating 10 candy bars a day (aka doom scrolling.)

It's about learning self control and personal responsibility. IMO government doesn't need to hold our hands from moment we wake up until bedtime.

 

[chrono1081]

The problem is Meta’s internal ethics groups has documented the addictive nature of the way the endless scroll is designed.

That’s why people compare it to the time when tabbaco company’s knew about the cancer risks but buried the results of their studies and instead kept pushing cigarette.

I'm aware but the problem isn't so much meta, it's if every small indie dev has to follow suit.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Yes it is different. Government doesn't stop you from eating 10 candy bars a day (aka doom scrolling.)

It's about learning self control and personal responsibility.

No, it's not about that.
You're focusing on the wrong part of it.

The ingredients in the food do get regulated and we are talking about the ingredients of the digital experience. This isn't about restricting what users do, but the techniques the tech is built with and around.

As someone who is susceptible to the addictive techniques in use, let me promise you that self control can be wholly insufficient when they are building things to BE addictive.

Please have some compassion and grace and understanding that not everyone can just "not do things".

 

[chrono1081]

Maybe we need the equivalent of the Consumer Product Safety Commission for apps then.

If an app is found to have a design/safety defect (e.g. being too addictive), then the Commission should be able to stop the distribution of the defective app. And since apps cannot be recalled like defective/unsafe products, the app developer would have to disable service to the app until they can roll out a fixed app and require users to update to it to continue using the service.

So games should not try and be fun and addictive? Can you and everyone else not see the flaw in this reasoning?

 

[Happy_John]

I'm a high school teacher. Honestly, I think phones have become really expensive fidget spinners—our attention is lost for a second, we grab the phone because we have nothing else to do till our attention refocuses. Then we see a notification, we get pulled into an app… and we're done for.

I have no social media on my phone (I'm working on not checking my newsfeeds as often). My screentime plummeted after I deleted my Facebook and Twitter accounts (I have an Instagram account, but it's only for school-related stuff and I don't post; I also have LinkedIn, but it's LinkedIn so... ), and I'm a much happier person because of it.

And for everyone saying "iT's teh paRenTs' reSponsIBILity!!!!!1!!!": The parents need help. They have no idea where to start or how. I don't know how many I've talked with who didn't know about the parental controls in the operating systems or the family functions in various social media apps. So, before you start talking out of your rear, start by working with your local school and volunteer to do some workshops showing parents how to lock down these devices. Otherwise, if you aren't willing to help, keep quiet.

Yep, I know professionally that social media, especially on smartphones, has had a terrible impact on learning - I've been involved in a study on this topic, specifically reading proficiency.

Kids are reaching basic competency in reading in both their first languages and additional languages far later, and, later in education, the ability to analyze tests and extrapolate implicit meaning has lowered significantly.

And yes, the reality is parents don't know how to deal with social media use amongst their kids, primarily because they don't know how to deal with social media usage amongst themselves.

As I said above, just saying "it's their fault" achieves nothing. Tut-tut-ing achieve nothing.

The only pragmatic way to affect change with this is to change how people interact with devices and platforms.

But all of this is drifting away from the initial point - it is not accidental that social media platforms are highly addictive, they have been deliberately optimized for this, with full awareness of the negative consequences of the addiction.

"Who knew?" - Meta did. That has already been established as fact.

 

[siddavis]

Lots of fair comparisons to tobacco companies and the reveal of the addictive nature of their product. We are entering the phase where this should not be a secret to anyone. At some point personal responsibility has to kick in just as it is when someone decides to light up their first cigarette.

 

[triumvirate]

But just saying this won't actually achieve anything. It might be true, but it's not a pragmatic solution, it's simply another way of "shoulder-shrugging".

When a problem arises, say a car crash, pointing the finger and saying "they're to blame" doesn't rewind time and magically erase the car crash, and its effects, from history.

Doing nothing will achieve nothing.

Which is why I also say that regulation on meta is generally needed. But it also cannot take the focus away from the fundamental problem of an overall lack of accountability, if not for oneself then also for the children you watch over.

If it isn’t meta / doomscrolling it will be something else for people who never bother to develop these life skills. We can’t regulate everything away in the end.

 

[Happy_John]

Which is why I also say that regulation on meta is generally needed. But it also cannot take the focus away from the fundamental problem of an overall lack of accountability, if not for oneself then also for the children you watch over.

If it isn’t meta / doomscrolling it will be something else for people who never bother to develop these life skills. We can’t regulate everything away in the end.

Again, there's nothing pragmatic in this. Stating it will achieve nothing.

 

[turbineseaplane]

If it isn’t meta / doomscrolling it will be something else for people who never bother to develop these life skills.

There are ways to make things SUPER addictive on purpose ... in ways that fully overwhelm many human abilities to resist, restrict and control themselves.

This is way beyond "developing life skills" for many people.

Honestly, sometimes I wonder if many of you have had any real experience with folks buried by addictions of any form.

Please try to open up your perspective and understand there can be things going on that don't impact you (thankfully!) and show compassion and curiosity here.

 

[tonmischa]

So games should not try and be fun and addictive? Can you and everyone else not see the flaw in this reasoning?

So games HAVE to be addictive to be considered fun?

 

[iZac]

I remember when I used to scroll down on instagram and it would say “you’re all caught up” when you had reached the end of your friends unseen posts. I miss those days!

 

[I7guy]

I was recently dating a woman in her mid 40's, mother, successful professional ... but with an addictive personality (I have one also).

She was COMPLETELY doom scroll addicted. We weren't even able to watch a show or movie without her having the phone out and checking it and just "scrolling" for no discernible purpose often.

The tech in play here can absolutely hijack many people and is far more of a problem than many are giving it credit for.

I get the instinct to say "have some self control!", but we must realize that it can be overwhelmed by the technology and techniques in play here. These companies have studied how to make things SUPER addictive, on purpose. That has been documented.

Anything can be addictive. My guilty pleasure is MR. Could be anything. I don’t think MR encourages addictive engagement. But yet I enjoy it more than Facebook.

Anything can be made to be addictive and I am against government pretending to be parents.

 

[turbineseaplane]

I remember when I used to scroll down on instagram and it would say “you’re all caught up” when you had reached the end of your friends unseen posts. I miss those days!

I've made the mistake of liking and following a few fitness related accounts on IG and now I can't get rid of the constant "Bro" content.

Now I'm getting ENDLESS "single forever", "who needs women??", "Single and happy with gym, me & myself!!!" content.

On the other end of the spectrum, they know I'm in Idaho and I get this bizarre "Trad wife" stuff in there also.

These algorithms are unbelievably influential if you think about how this maps out over society overall.