EU: Facebook and Instagram's Infinite Scroll May Break Digital Rules

[drrich2]

diction.
They know it, study it, implement it on purpose ... because it works.

The neurobiological basis involves small doses of dopamine released with each scrolling motion, coupled with variable reward schedules, which can lead to tolerance development. This mechanism mirrors the reward uncertainty that makes many behavioural patterns compelling and potentially habit-forming.

I don't dispute that, and I understand the temptation but am concerned about the practical ramifications of legislating over it. Seems like we're on an analogy roll in this thread, so you know the old saying 'Sex Sells?'

I've never monitored my dopamine levels when I happen to see a 'hottie,' but I'm guessing they might spike a bit. And advertisers like to put those hotties on magazine covers, t.v. ad.s, etc. When was the last time you saw a morbidly obese woman in the role of news anchor? (Note: chunky myself, I'm not fat-shaming, just pointing out a relevant real world truth).

Now imagine passing a law that only homely looking people can be used in ad.s, or as news anchors, as models, etc. We don't want the potent force of sexuality used to manipulate people. There are sex addicts, people who act on sexuality in dysfunctional ways, etc.

I'm not going for the cheap joke of a homely person draped across a sofa in a furniture ad., but rather the quagmire of trying to legislate such a thing.

 

[I7guy]

I remain convinced that many folks have simply not experienced true addiction in their own lives.

Take it from someone who's lived it.
The feeling of not being able to stop something (truly, not being able to) is incredibly scary.

What do you call all the back and forth in MR. Many cases the addiction is trying to be right while proving others wrong by a variety of debating tactics. This is every bit as addictive as doom scrolling because many want to get the last word in. I don’t claim I’m not in that universe but let’s be intellectually honest about this.

I have some addictions but they (hopefully) are not destructive. Coffee is at the top of the list.

 

[sw1tcher]

So games should not try and be fun and addictive? Can you and everyone else not see the flaw in this reasoning?

Why can't they be mutually exclusive?

Regulating video games (i.e. the content) is a bit more challenging as courts have ruled doing so violates gaming companies 1st Amendment rights (see: Angelilli v. Activision Blizzard, Inc. as an example).

But people have successfully sued and won cases against video game companies for defective video game designs/functions/features. For example, courts have ruled that certain loot boxes (a game feature) constitutes illegal gambling.

This Meta case is about functions and features (e.g. infinite scroll, push notifications, and highly personalized recommendation systems) in Meta apps that are deemed to be a defective design flaws. It's not about the content itself. That's how Meta has lost 2 cases (so far). The jury found that social media apps should be treated as "defective products" for being "engineered to exploit" the developing brains of kids and teenagers.

 

[quietstormSD]

I'm usually one not for government overreach and hate when government butts into private enterprises business. But I think this is an area where it's warranted. These companies cannot help themselves and are extremely greedy at the detriment of our public health and discourse.

 

[lotones]

There is actual science and research in play here.

They are designing in addiction.
They know it, study it, implement it on purpose ... because it works.

The neurobiological basis involves small doses of dopamine released with each scrolling motion, coupled with variable reward schedules, which can lead to tolerance development. This mechanism mirrors the reward uncertainty that makes many behavioural patterns compelling and potentially habit-forming.

Sounds like every video game ever made.

 

[lotones]

True! But Congress still hasn't taken any action (bills get introduced and then referred to committee… and then they die; it's like the scene in Casablanca where Renault shuts down the cafe for gambling and then is given his winnings).

Shareholders don''t typically regulate the corporations making them millions.

 

[name99]

The EU remains behind the times on this.
It all may turn out very differently from how people expect.

My personal theory has always been that society only requires about 1% of truly smart people and a few percent of mildly smart people, no-one else matters much. That’s one reason I think it was so stupid to flood the universities, trying to get 30, 40, 50% to go college.

So if most of the dumb people are addicted to short video and are aware that they are not smart, that’s huge progress over the current situation where we have this massive population that think they know everything and that it’s someone else’s fault that they have a loser life. A reversion to something like say before 1800, where society was clearly stratified into a small (generally) smart class who made most decisions and a huge dumb class that mostly went along with what was decided, would be massive progress compared to our current situation.

I honestly wonder if the Chinese government has investigated this secretly (with much more care than my intuition) and reached the same conclusion - the easiest way to maintain social stability in the coming age of AI is if most of the population is not very educated, and is basically happy with that so long as they keep being entertained…

This may sound sarcastic but it's not, it's deadly serious. Western society has elite-over-produced itself to near total suicide, and China was on the same path. China, with all the capabilities at its disposal, has nevertheless apparently allowed Douyin (Chinese version of Tick Tok) to flourish, only limiting the content of what's shown, but not throttling the allowed daily dose.
I suspect the US will kinda fall into the same path. (Much like I suspect that marijuana and similar type drugs have gradually been tolerated for the same reason, that there's less downside to a population that's ignorant and knows it to a population that's ignorant but is convinced it knows everything.)

You're shocked? You're unhappy about this?
What happened to all those lefty claims that the school system, then the university system, exist only to force people into wage slavery?

 

[turbineseaplane]

The EU remains behind the times on this.
It all may turn out very differently from how people expect.

My personal theory has always been that society only requires about 1% of truly smart people and a few percent of mildly smart people, no-one else matters much. That’s one reason I think it was so stupid to flood the universities, trying to get 30, 40, 50% to go college.

So if most of the dumb people are addicted to short video and are aware that they are not smart, that’s huge progress over the current situation where we have this massive population that think they know everything and that it’s someone else’s fault that they have a loser life. A reversion to something like say before 1800, where society was clearly stratified into a small (generally) smart class who made most decisions and a huge dumb class that mostly went along with what was decided, would be massive progress compared to our current situation.

I honestly wonder if the Chinese government has investigated this secretly (with much more care than my intuition) and reached the same conclusion - the easiest way to maintain social stability in the coming age of AI is if most of the population is not very educated, and is basically happy with that so long as they keep being entertained…

This may sound sarcastic but it's not, it's deadly serious. Western society has elite-over-produced itself to near total suicide, and China was on the same path. China, with all the capabilities at its disposal, has nevertheless apparently allowed Douyin (Chinese version of Tick Tok) to flourish, only limiting the content of what's shown, but not throttling the allowed daily dose.
I suspect the US will kinda fall into the same path. (Much like I suspect that marijuana and similar type drugs have gradually been tolerated for the same reason, that there's less downside to a population that's ignorant and knows it to a population that's ignorant but is convinced it knows everything.)

You're shocked? You're unhappy about this?
What happened to all those lefty claims that the school system, then the university system, exist only to force people into wage slavery?

What on earth is all of this?

This is way beyond the purview of simply wanting technology not being purposely built to be addictive.

 

[Rydawg96]

Setting aside all the worst parts of Meta, I.e. all of Meta.

In all fairness, I don’t know if removing infinite scroll and highly personalized content is the ‘thing’ that is going to separates damaging and addictive from ‘safe’. An overhaul of Meta to reduce it back to an (unprofitable) glorified phone book is impractical, and still wouldn’t entirely fix the problem.

Waiting for the conditioned Meta users to respond with variations on ‘but I only use it for ___.’

Force it to become non-profit. Problem solved.

 

[Happy_John]

The EU remains behind the times on this.
It all may turn out very differently from how people expect.

My personal theory has always been that society only requires about 1% of truly smart people and a few percent of mildly smart people, no-one else matters much. That’s one reason I think it was so stupid to flood the universities, trying to get 30, 40, 50% to go college.

So if most of the dumb people are addicted to short video and are aware that they are not smart, that’s huge progress over the current situation where we have this massive population that think they know everything and that it’s someone else’s fault that they have a loser life. A reversion to something like say before 1800, where society was clearly stratified into a small (generally) smart class who made most decisions and a huge dumb class that mostly went along with what was decided, would be massive progress compared to our current situation.

I honestly wonder if the Chinese government has investigated this secretly (with much more care than my intuition) and reached the same conclusion - the easiest way to maintain social stability in the coming age of AI is if most of the population is not very educated, and is basically happy with that so long as they keep being entertained…

This may sound sarcastic but it's not, it's deadly serious. Western society has elite-over-produced itself to near total suicide, and China was on the same path. China, with all the capabilities at its disposal, has nevertheless apparently allowed Douyin (Chinese version of Tick Tok) to flourish, only limiting the content of what's shown, but not throttling the allowed daily dose.
I suspect the US will kinda fall into the same path. (Much like I suspect that marijuana and similar type drugs have gradually been tolerated for the same reason, that there's less downside to a population that's ignorant and knows it to a population that's ignorant but is convinced it knows everything.)

You're shocked? You're unhappy about this?
What happened to all those lefty claims that the school system, then the university system, exist only to force people into wage slavery?

This reads like a tech-bro fever dream.

Reality doesn’t bear it out, for the same reason most tech-bro fever dreams do n’t pan out. Because this t misses out on some based c facts.

I’ll mention just one, although there are many: food

No matter how enchanted a tech-bro is with tech being the answer to everything, without food, they with won’t live long.

Where does food come from? The vast majority food is farmed. For that you need farmers.

Farming is a very tricky business, and a stupid farmer will not be able to adapt to the constant unpredictability of actual farming. So you’ll need a hell of a lot more “non-stupid people” then you originally estimated.

Farm produce needs to be prepared and checked to ensure it is safe to eat. The food needs to be cooked. Unless the “non stupid elite” you propose are happy to eat kibble, then you’re going to need non-stupid humans to do that too.

It wasn’t long ago when COVID proved very conclusively that societies need a hell of a lot of “non-stupid people” to do a lot of essential but under-appreciated work in order to keep society going.

Lastly, there’s a massive misconception on threads like this about the EU? Who are the EU? In this case, the EU is no some shadowy cabal. In this case, the EU are a very large number of normal people, a significant proportion of which are not happy about the effects of social media on their children and society, snd are pressing their elected representative to do something about it.

It’s not a case of a shadowy government enforcing restorations on the unwashed masses, it’s a case of the general population demanding their public servants bring big tech into line.

As it has been said very recently, it’s not the case of limiting our children’s access to social media, it’s a case of limiting social media’s access to our children.

People are not sheep to be farmed by tech firms. Step outside the tech bubble and this becomes very obvious. The tech industry simply does not provide the necessary basics for human survival, despite their delusion that they can and do.

When it comes down to it, food and clean water are far more valuable than technology. You can’t eat silicon.

 

[Starfia]

I think a lot of the issue here is that some are either unable or unwilling to understand that truly addictive substances or designs or patterns simply can't be overcome with will power.

But a scrolling view obviously can be. So what's your point?

 

[drrich2]

So if most of the dumb people are addicted to short video and are aware that they are not smart, that’s huge progress over the current situation where we have this massive population that think they know everything and that it’s someone else’s fault that they have a loser life. A reversion to something like say before 1800, where society was clearly stratified into a small (generally) smart class who made most decisions and a huge dumb class that mostly went along with what was decided, would be massive progress compared to our current situation.

Kinda like Animal Farm - all animals are equal but some animals (the class in power, for example) are more equal than others.

 

[surferfb]

Not sure what to think here. In general, I think regulations designed to protect citizens’ health (both physical and mental) are justified in a way regulations like the DMA are not. I also believe Meta’s products are indeed harmful to health for many people, and it wouldn’t surprise me one bit to find out Meta intentionally designed them to be as addictive as possible even knowing they’re harmful to some users’ health.

But I also don’t believe that EU tech regulators are qualified to be determining this, and also suspect their “solutions” will not improve anything. So the end result will likely be “worse experiences without fixing the problems we claimed to be solving.” (See: cookie popups). The DSA also wasn’t designed as a health regulation, and this would only apply to Meta. If infinite timelines are bad then the EU should regulate them, not pick on Meta because they’re a gatekeeper.

So yeah, not sure what to think.

 

[delsoul]

We are actually having a pretty thoughtful discussion in the thread and on this topic.

I certainly recommend you go back and read through some of it.

I think you might appreciate that this is a little different than a usual EU thread and situation.

I automatically assumed more of the same from the EU, I’ll go back and read this thread in its entirety. I’m always open to being pleasantly surprised!

 

[ResolutionNZ]

I want the EU to win this one so we can avoid all the age-verification nonsense that governments are trying to introduce for social media. It isn’t working in the UK and its just an excuse for digital ID control of the web. Making social media less addictive by design is a better way to solve the problem.

 

[ResolutionNZ]

Whatever happened to discipline and self-control? Sounds like people need to act like adults and govern themselves. Kids are one thing, but adults?

Lets be honest, many adults are just kids in sexually mature bodies.

"did not adequately assess the risks of their addictive design on the physical and mental wellbeing of users, including minors and vulnerable adults."

This is laughable.

If you're going to try to enforce this, then get rid of vapes. Get rid of energy drinks. Get rid of booze.

I'm sure vape companies did "not adequately assess the risks of their addictive design..." either.

Yes, lets get rid of vapes and energy drinks. They’re terrible for your body. Alcohol can be used with moderation but highly addictive alcopops have been regulated in many countries because of their addictive properties and specific targeting of young people.

 

[ResolutionNZ]

Not the same thing, but not as far off as you may think.

Sugar addiction is a thing, and I'd be willing to bet a company like Häagen-Dazs knows it. So, yes, for some people, they need assistance breaking away from the ice cream. We regulate tobacco, we regulate alcohol, and some states regulate pot… you can fill in the rest.

The food industry uses sugar to replace healthy fats for more storage life and reduced cost. It is addictive and it helps sell more products. They know it. It isn’t possible to live a truly healthy life in many countries if you aren’t cooking the vast majority of meals from scratch. In many countries the commercially available bread is equivalent to what our ancestors would’ve called cake. And people wonder why theres an obesity and diabetes epidemic. Keto diets help overcome this.

 

[turbineseaplane]

This reads like a tech-bro fever dream.

Reality doesn’t bear it out, for the same reason most tech-bro fever dreams do n’t pan out. Because this t misses out on some based c facts.

I’m convinced that so many of the problems we are living with right now are because way too much tech fantasy nonsense has taken over entire corporations.

Tech Bros are insanely weird

 

[turbineseaplane]

But a scrolling view obviously can be. So what's your point?

This reads as though you haven’t read anything in the thread.

 

[wyrdness]

Facebook does not have a "highly personalized recommendation system".
It has a 'bury the posts from my friends under a mountain of absolute cr@p" system.

 

[I7guy]

The food industry uses sugar to replace healthy fats for more storage life and reduced cost. It is addictive and it helps sell more products. They know it. It isn’t possible to live a truly healthy life in many countries if you aren’t cooking the vast majority of meals from scratch. In many countries the commercially available bread is equivalent to what our ancestors would’ve called cake. And people wonder why theres an obesity and diabetes epidemic. Keto diets help overcome this.

And I use my agency and don’t buy those products or buy those products with an understanding of what I am doing. I am not a victim to some faceless corporation.

 

[mannyvel]

The EU: "this is too easy to use. Easy is a metric that we can't define, but we know it when we see it. Oh, and you have to evaluate your design against every possible group of humans to ensure it's not too easy or you will be in violation."

 

[Sir_Macs_A_Lot]

Whatever happened to discipline and self-control? Sounds like people need to act like adults and govern themselves. Kids are one thing, but adults?

Tell that to anyone with a compulsion or an addiction: gambling, smoking, drinking, narcotics, pom, etc. Why can't they just act like adults for crying out loud?

 

[mw360]

If you 'find yourself' on one at least once pretty much daily, odds are you chose to open and use the app. Why are they on your phone? Likely some practical utility - like the option to get messages from people using their service.

You functionally cannot opt out of microplastics. I don't think even the Amish and Mennonites can pull that off. If you want to take it to the extreme of claiming other people's use of social media impacts you indirectly vs. some hypothetical world where it didn't exist, then do we outlaw t.v., fast food and a host of other things some people with didn't exist? I'd rather live in a world with doom-scrollers and under a 'tyranny of the prudes.' Imagine if someone decided obesity is so offense 'we' (more like 'they') must outlaw things that contribute to it.


That's quite a reach. Just because something affects somebody's health doesn't automatically justify regulation. Imagine a cop stationed at the McDonald's drive through to arrest fat people trying to get junk food. Yeah, it affects people's health, now get out of my way, I want a combo. #3 double-quarter pounder combo., Coke Zero to drink, and make that large.

That's not being a corporate shill.

Why would cops arrest people for eating? The correct analogy is, "imagine if government food inspectors descended on a McDonalds for putting heroin in the Big Macs".

 

[boswald]

Tell that to anyone with a compulsion or an addiction: gambling, smoking, drinking, narcotics, pom, etc. Why can't they just act like adults for crying out loud?

I think those addictions are worse than scrolling through a phone all day. Maybe I don't understand because I don't do it. Point taken though.