EU: Facebook and Instagram's Infinite Scroll May Break Digital Rules

[drrich2]

The food industry uses sugar to replace healthy fats for more storage life and reduced cost. It is addictive and it helps sell more products.

I've heard elsewhere that a big part of that was U.S. public sentiment turned strongly against fat, particularly saturated fat, in food, but people wanted the food to continue to taste good rather than take the 'taste hit' taking away the fat entailed. Upping carb. content was the resolution of that problem (and created more problems).

Then they came out with indigestible carb.s as sugar-substitutes, and there is a lot of back-and-forth controversy over that (e.g.: Splenda, Aspartame).

While you could make a 'chicken and egg' argument over healthy food and consumer demand, it seems like if there was a strong consumer demands for healthier food, some company would be marketing product to meet that. We see some signs of this - such as food labeled organic, low-fat, no-added sugar (but check the carb.s on the label - food is a 'buyer beware' thing), etc.

Big companies don't necessarily have an agenda to make you fat; they have an agenda to make a lot of money by offering product we're willing to buy a lot of.

In many countries the commercially available bread is equivalent to what our ancestors would’ve called cake.

Case in point. Many years ago on a honeymoon cruise I was in the main dining room onboard and a waitstaff person brought about a basket of various types of bread. I think this was sort of 'European' style. I'm an American accustomed to O'Charley's hot, soft rolls with butter to smear on them; I'd heard of Europeans going on about their bread, so I eagerly tried a piece. Blech! It was like gnawing on cardboard.

Before anybody starts in that freshly baked bread in some European bakery is doubtless way different than what I was offered on that cruise, I don't dispute that, but the idea rolls should be soft and hot seems to run afoul of some foreign preferences (did a little Googling to confirm that).

I suspect at least in some large cities there are businesses making European (yes, I know that's overly reductionistic) harder/denser breads served cold, but...they don't seem to be taking the market by storm. And if a lot of Americans wanted that, seems like they would be.

 

[Nermal]

These could include disabling addictive features such as autoplay and infinite scroll by default

Even putting addictiveness aside, autoplay should be optional. It's not right to chew up a user's data plan just because they happened to scroll onto a video.

 

[drrich2]

Why would cops arrest people for eating? The correct analogy is, "imagine if government food inspectors descended on a McDonalds for putting heroin in the Big Macs".

To protect them from themselves, a mindset that seems to be behind some of the legislative pushes some want to see.

Heroin (an illegal substance not normally associated with food) isn't the right analogy; salt, fat, carbohydrates and such are. Nobody goes into heroin withdrawal if they don't 'get fries with that,' etc.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Even putting addictiveness aside, autoplay should be optional. It's not right to chew up a user's data plan just because they happened to scroll onto a video.

Autoplay defaulting on is such a great example of having no respect or concern for what user preferences likely are.

 

[drrich2]

Tell that to anyone with a compulsion or an addiction: gambling, smoking, drinking, narcotics, pom, etc. Why can't they just act like adults for crying out loud?

A legit question, but when a drunk driver kills a kid, we don't typically blame Budweiser.

Beer companies, casinos, bars, a lot of businesses remain in operation though some people are basically addicted to their product.

My point is, with sympathy to the very real issue and struggle addiction often entails, we do demand people 'act like adults' (if they are adults).

 

[Happy_John]

A legit question, but when a drunk driver kills a kid, we don't typically blame Budweiser.

Beer companies, casinos, bars, a lot of businesses remain in operation though some people are basically addicted to their product.

My point is, with sympathy to the very real issue and struggle addiction often entails, we do demand people 'act like adults' (if they are adults).

Facebooks ok doesn’t produce the content, it delivers it, and it choose what is delivered.

So a better analogy would be a bar that, when you ordered a beer, told you you have to drink ten shots of whiskey before they give you that beer.

 

[mw360]

To protect them from themselves, a mindset that seems to be behind some of the legislative pushes some want to see.

Heroin (an illegal substance not normally associated with food) isn't the right analogy; salt, fat, carbohydrates and such are. Nobody goes into heroin withdrawal if they don't 'get fries with that,' etc.

Okay dude, you keep sucking on the corporate tailpipe while these guys continue to get worse and worse. Clearly nothing they could possible do is their fault.

 

[Starfia]

This reads as though you haven’t read anything in the thread.

(You're sure it doesn't read as though I've read at least one thing in the thread?)

I'd scanned the entire thread to that point, but I don't see how that merits a dodge. Do you feel my take had already been rebutted, or…?

 

[Happy_John]

Even putting addictiveness aside, autoplay should be optional. It's not right to chew up a user's data plan just because they happened to scroll onto a video.

At a very basic level, every “feature” on a social media platform should be “opt in” and never “opt out”.

 

[drrich2]

Okay dude, you keep sucking on the corporate tailpipe while these guys continue to get worse and worse. Clearly nothing they could possible do is their fault.

So don't use their product. I avoid alcohol...but I'm not stopping you from using it. I abhor cigarettes...but keep your smoke to yourself and fellow smokers, and we're good.

To be clear, my focus in on adults. Kids are a special case, but 'think of the children!' gets used as a crowbar to push for legislation aimed at everyone.

So a better analogy would be a bar that, when you ordered a beer, told you you have to drink ten shots of whiskey before they give you that beer.

More like they hand a menu to you listing the other 10 shots, then hand you what you ordered. You don't have to drink/read them.

 

[turbineseaplane]

I don’t know how many times I have to say it…

Designing in the most addictive interactions possible can be something that will power cannot overcome for some people.

We should absolutely insist that that is not how these systems are designed.

Just flip it around and ask yourself what benefit is it to all of us to allow these companies to design super addictive interaction methods?

I literally can’t think of one benefit or reason to allow it given the drawbacks.

 

[Abazigal]

We only need to look to Mastodon to see what a social platform could look like when it isn’t driven by the need to push as many ads to users’ eyeballs as possible in a bid to maximise profit.

No ads. No tracking. No algorithmic feed. When you run out of content, you are done. You can create and control your own instance, so you are not at threat of censorship from an unaccountable entity.

 

[WilliApple]

Plz bring this to the us insragram

 

[I7guy]

I don’t know how many times I have to say it…

Designing in the most addictive interactions possible can be something that will power cannot overcome for some people.

We should absolutely insist that that is not how these systems are designed.

Just flip it around and ask yourself what benefit is it to all of us to allow these companies to design super addictive interaction methods?

I literally can’t think of one benefit or reason to allow it given the drawbacks.

Are these sites to be designed for the lowest common denominator? Protect the children sure. I like the addictive interaction of some web sites. Other than MR which I postulate is addictive as any, I may spend a half hour a month on Facebook. Maybe 15 minutes doom scrolling. It’s my opinion people who show these behaviors are doing social media in lieu or with other behaviors. But its real easy to say let’s regulate big tech.

 

[vladi]

Just search for Opium in China, I think we might have similar problem here.

 

[drrich2]

Designing in the most addictive interactions possible can be something that will power cannot overcome for some people.

Yes. And there are people who need to stay out of bars (the old alcoholic adage that 1's too many and a thousand aren't enough) and casinos. Some people need to stay off Facebook and TikTok.

Just flip it around and ask yourself what benefit is it to all of us to allow these companies to design super addictive interaction methods?

I literally can’t think of one benefit or reason to allow it given the drawbacks.

Even if so, you're coming at it from an interesting 'burden of proof' angle, that being allowed to do it is contingent upon it benefiting all of us. In the U.S., for example, rights of free speech and religion are often viewed as inherent to free-willed sentient beings. Whether what one chooses to say or believe is 'beneficial to us all' doesn't enter into it, aside from the most egregious violations (e.g.: slander, or yelling 'Fire!' in a crowded theater). I'm aware the thread topic involves the E.U., but people's views on morality, ethics and individual rights often aren't constrained by borders.

We only need to look to Mastodon to see what a social platform could look like when it isn’t driven by the need to push as many ads to users’ eyeballs as possible in a bid to maximise profit.

Yes, it exists as an alternative, and one I suspect only a very small fraction of the American public is even aware of. Some quick Googling indicates in terms of user base Facebook dwarfs Mastodon. The public 'voted with their feet.'

That said, I'm glad Mastodon exists, both for the people who prefer it, and as a free market opinion giving people a choice.

 

[Abazigal]

Yes, it exists as an alternative, and one I suspect only a very small fraction of the American public is even aware of. Some quick Googling indicates in terms of user base Facebook dwarfs Mastodon. The public 'voted with their feet.'

Yup, I won't deny the stickiness of network effects. People go to where their friends and interests are. Celebrities like Taylor Swift, BTS, even vTubers I follow on Twitch have zero presence on Mastodon. Taylor Swift apparently got married over the weekend and there was nary a whisper of it on Mastodon. Leaving a platform very often means going "cold turkey" and either shutting yourself out of the news cycle altogether, or finding alternative avenues.

For a while, I was subscribed to Tweetbot, a third party twitter client, which fixed a lot of "issues" that I had with the platform. It presented my tweets in a clear, chronological order, stripped out all the ads, and I don't get random posts being pushed into my timeline. That's really all I want out of a social media platform, and it also explains why these platforms keeping to push content it thinks you are interested in, in a bid to get you to keep scrolling and stay hooked for longer and consume more ads (and get more rage-baited) in the process.

The end result is that while you might have fewer followers on mastodon, you actually tend to get more engagement on your posts, and (generally) more thoughtful and cogent responses as well. And I think that's a huge part of the allure of Mastodon for the people there - not just about having the most number of followers in a vacuum, but about attracting the right kind of followers.

 

[ijordano]

so what about TikTok?

 

[Starfia]

This is not the EUs call. Not even close.

Regulatory leviathan.

Then seriously, whose call is it?

"Whether a person visits a particular Web site is not the government's call."

"Then seriously, whose call is it?"

 

[NightFox]

"Whether a person visits a particular Web site is not the government's call."

"Then seriously, whose call is it?"

That’s a total straw man. This has got nothing to do with government control over visiting a website.

 

[Janichsan]

I do think parents have a responsibility in these things,…

That would require the parents to stop doom scrolling on social media and put down their smartphones for a minute.

 

[Samplasion]

Yes it is different. Government doesn't stop you from eating 10 candy bars a day

You think that's what was being referred to by "food safety"?

 

[Samplasion]

I wish folks would understand Excessive regulation is very bad for the advancement of society.

Citation very needed. If nothing were regulated ever, we'd still work 14 hour shifts in dangerous conditions 7 days a week.

 

[uacd]

Nanny state, but it is no state. EU is trying to milk American companies once again. I mean, it is a free service, if you don’t want to use it - don’t use. I don’t have Facebook or Instagram now and I don’t really think I need to sign. For the sake of justice they should also keep an eye on TikTok if they really care about “kids”, since they mostly use TikTok and consider Facebook “social for boomers” and Instagram as a sort of obsolete service.

I am yet to see them hold to their promises of making every company add removable batteries to their devices, or else I will forever consider them “third party cookie banner enforcement agency”

 

[uacd]

Comments on forums and (even worse) Reddit are pretty hilarious and ironic sometimes.

I recognize a lot of of your usernames in this thread alone. Half of you have been commenting nonstop for a decade or more on this site, and I imagine this isn’t the only forum you frequent.

Why do you think MacRumors is healthier to doomscroll than Instagram?

The “doom” here is defined by work hours of journalists and it is a sort of a niche communication site. Big advantage and disadvantage at the same time is that account deletion procedure here is complicated. Reddit often descends into circlejerk with zero critical thought taken + lots of bots, especially in political/war subreddits.

Instagram keeps you addicted in the other way: by constantly pulling content you don’t really need like stupid and unfunny memes, useless influencers, overprocessed ugly photos etc.

Macrumors, Notebookcheck and similar sites are devoted to one single topic: tech. So here all the tech nerds, analysts, hobbyists and fanboys go to get news, waste maybe half and hour and then close till evening or till the next day. It is by far much less time wasted vs Instagram.

Actually I wouldn’t even call Instagram or MR or any other media “addiction”. I can stop whenever I want to, I just don’t want to.

For example if I stop drinking caffeine daily - I will feel like trash for the next 4 days and will get awful headache. That’s addiction, and btw hugely normalized in our society! But socials… well, if someone bans socials for me I would barely notice, but will instead have lots of free time that I will be able to invest for something different