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EU Lawmakers Vote Overwhelmingly in Favor of Common Charging Standard, Despite Apple's Protestations [Updated]
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My point is that standards bodies are more political than technical. They exist to agree, not to design good products— thus the derisive phrase “designed by committee”.
I‘m not sure where you see it stated that this is governed by a standards body and the composition of that body, but blue ribbon commissions don’t inspire confidence.
Of course Gates didn’t actually say he couldn’t imagine needing more than 640k (he also didn’t design the computers with that limitation). But it’s interesting that you attribute his not saying it to his intelligence after you went and said this:
😉
The reason I have a bag full of USB cables is because everything with a USB port keeps changing. I’ve been using lightning years without issue and have a stash of unopened cables in a drawer because I can just use the last one for each new device. How does it save waste to make me throw those out? How does it save waste if the same manufacturer that makes your failing lightning cable makes your USB cable?
And if the point is a common brick, what are you using? My iPhone X is charging from the same 5W adapter my iPhone 4 shipped with (or at least one that looks like it, I'm not sure which one in the house is the original from the 4). That seems to meet your objective of using the brick in my possession. I’m pretty sure I could charge a Samsung phone with my Apple brick.
So... You're saying we should either burden every device with the highest capacity brick even if that current capacity is excessive for the device (wasteful!) or limit every device to a minimum charge rate because we don't want to ship a brick that's too big. This is the reason we have different bricks-- they're all USB in the end, just different current capacities.
Should we also specify the electronics architecture? These new GaN devices are nice and compact because they generate less waste heat. Should everyone be forced to use the more expensive GaN, or should no one be allowed to?
What if a company develops a new battery technology that can charge faster or is less susceptible to thermal run away but has different charging requirements? Do we need to wait until the European Parliament blesses a new charger before testing it in the market?
You're assuming that companies are going to be setting these standards. Companies didn't write the report recommending a standard, consultants did.
And you're skipping the whole second half of my point: there are 27 countries in the EU, how quickly do you expect them to ratify a new standard? Each country has individual economic interests-- what if NXP (Dutch) has a patent on a new charging technology and Siemens (German) has a patent on a different technology? Which one will the assembly demand that every smartphone shipped into the EU pay a license for? How long will it take them to agree, and how will they make Thales (French) feel they're being looked after while all this is going on?
This is how the free market works. If people didn't think it was worth the expense, they would chose another option. Saying it's a bad thing because Apple profits from it is exactly backwards-- Apple profits from it because people are willing to pay for it.
USB-C didn't exist when Lightning shipped. Interestingly, this is one of the points the report makes regarding how innovation could be hurt by forcing a standard:
"As an example of how proprietary charging solutions can contribute to the development of new common solutions and standards, a few interviewees commented on the influence of Lightning on the development of USB Type-C. Apple is a member of the USB-IF and contributed to the development of USB Type-C. According to several interviewees (representing members and non-members of the USB-IF), for example the fact that USB Type-C is reversible is in part due to the existence of Lightning, which already incorporated this feature." [report linked in the original article]
Not a strawman argument at all-- you're making my point for me.
My iPhone charger is 5W. The latest MBP charger is just about 100W, or 20x the power requirements of the iPhone.
The Tesla mobile charger pulls 1700W from a 120V outlet, or 17x the power of the MBP charger. Saying it should have the same requirements as the MBP charger is actually less crazy than saying the iPhone charger should have the same requirements as the MBP.
No, but you're advocating locking us into a government controlled process that ensures we're slower to adapt to new technologies and makes it harder to test new technologies against each other in the market.
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Before the EU we know in its present state, there was the European trade zone. And the 6 founding countries already did the "Roman Contracts" back in the 1950´s.
Also, the SCART connector is also known as the "Euro AV" connector - for a reason ;-)
Really? You really believe this nonsense? To the tune of 91B in one quarter?
Thanks for taking the time to respond to many of dilbert99's posts. If you read closely, they are mostly emotional based arguments where the ends justify the means. There are numerous options on the market for people to chose. If Apple's decision to maintain Lightning is that much of a negative, then dilbert99 has the freedom and liberty to make an alternate choice for him/herself. If enough people feel the same way, it will take care of itself. Forcing that preference on the market is damaging in ways that might be unseen at this time and may never be revealed. I only wish people understood just how powerful true freedom to chose is. Is this a world changing issue, no, but it is many many little things like this where people relinquish their rights to "get what they want" in that moment (ends justifying the means) that slowly centralize and consolidate power. Then one day, there are laws that go against "what they want" and they can't understand what happened to their personal responsibility and freedom.
Let standards bodies create standards. Let companies chose to adopt those standards. Let the market (people with individual liberty) determine if those standards and choices benefit them.
I’ve yet to have a lightning cable fail, and I’ve been using them since inception.
What are you doing to cause those failures?
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I don’t know if I’m the only one that has experienced this but usb c ports wear out much faster than lightning. My 4 year old iPhone 7 that has been plugged In much more often than my usb c macbooks still has a tight fitting port vs My macbooks which only get charged once or twice a month
Darth Tulhu
macrumors 68020
I'm in favor of Apple going USB-C, and I'm in favor of standard bodies creating standards, and I like that the government is at least thinking about enforcing things that benefit everyone, particularly in the interest of safety (which is not the case here).
But I think that you nailed it here and made a REALLY good point regarding individual freedom, and articulated the danger of government intervention coupled with human nature, greed, and lust for power, even if I'm not fully sure that is what is happening here.
I have insight into these things; I'm a Sith Lord after all.
You buy a mobile OS every time you buy a new phone...every purchase of an iPhone is, in effect, a purchase of iOS.
If Lightning is superior to USB-C, couldn't Apple have avoided all this by proposing it as a standard and encouraging other vendors to adopt it instead?
It seems to me that Apple has a long history of creating walled gardens to keep others out rather than contributing to, or setting, industry standards.
It seems to me that Apple has a long history of creating walled gardens to keep others out rather than contributing to, or setting, industry standards.
But this "waste" you speak of is nearly non-existent. The amount of people who ever switch between iOS and Android, let alone regularly, is infinitesimally small; the overwhelming majority of people stick with iOS or Android. From that perspective, Apple has actually been far better than Android manufacturers, who have switched chargers multiple times in the past few years. Apple has had 2 connectors is ~13 years. "Apple people" have plenty of Lightning cables, and "Android people" have plenty of USB-C cables (and likely micro-USB and some others). The only thing that this legislation would accomplish is to force hundreds of millions of iPhone users to throw away literally billions of Lightning cables, docks, and accessories.
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Apple literally created USB-C and handed it to the standards body. Soooo...
...yes, they were horrible connectors. However, if they hadn't existed, would TV and video manufacturers have gone the whole hog and fitted an array of phono/bnc/whatever sockets for composite, RGB and audio to the back of every device, or would they have either (a) said that 90% of customers just used UHF and saved their money or (b) would we be desperately walking the streets looking for AcmeVideo 11.5-pin DIN to GizmoTron not-quite-a-D-connector cables 20 years before eBay existed...?
How did the USA do it? Or did they just put up with UHF the way they just put up with NTSC...?
Am I the only person in the universe with an iPad and an Android phone and a kindle and at least two pairs of wireless headphones with micro-USB charging (or some similar permutation of devices)?
However, the reality today is that most phones have USB-A charger bricks (in fact, even my wireless cans did) so it seems like a solved problem.
Like when Apple dropped the 30-pin connector in favour of Lightning? Or went USB-C only on the MacBook range? Or what's probably going to happen anyway when the iPhone N+1 launches with wireless only... Or in 18 months time when the cheaply-made non-repairable crackerjack junk that accounts for 90% of the market disintegrates (or is bricked because its been designed to depend on the manufacturer's web servers).
That's if a switch to USB-C isn't in the pipeline already (since the Mad and iPad Pro have already bet the farm on it) and Apple are just taking advantage of the EU's most valued role - as a scapegoat.
The EU can always change the rules if a better charger is invented. But the problem with he current situation is not that USB-C is better than Lightening. It has to do with the waste of millions of worthless chargers being tossed in the garbage bin ever year. So I disagree with "never".
Yes in 2012, 8 years ago.
Yes, for a device whose sales are in a minority in its category. Hopefully Apple has some master plan with its port strategy.
Logistically i can’t envision how this is possible.
Yes, exactly like that. People flipped out when Apple ditched the obviously deprecated and ridiculous 30-pin, imagine how they're gonna feel when a bunch of bureaucrats in the EU demand that the entire world now has to switch to USB-C. And you could be totally right that Apple is gonna switch to USB-C on the next iPhone (I disagree, but nobody knows). If so, this entire thing is a moot point because the industry figured it out by themselves.
I'm not at all against regulation; I think the US needs more of them, particularly in the financial industry. But this proposed regulation is nonsensical. It solves no problem. If the EU actually wanted to eliminate waste, they would ban companies from including a new brick and cable and headphones in every single box.
Still talking about hundreds of millions+ no matter how it's spun.
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Apple remembers all the caterwauling when they brought out the Lightning connecter. And truthfully, there were lost of people who had invested in devices with that old connector -- the old iPod connector -- so there was a lot of inconvenience.
One problem is that I prefer the actual lightning design. You're held in tightly with magnets. Could this not be adapted to do the same as USB-C? And then, there's the fact that this was designed by engineers with no sense of consumers. There are maybe a dozen different kinds of USB-C. Some for data only, some for charging. Different combinations. Were's the markings? How can you tell you've got the right kind?
One problem is that I prefer the actual lightning design. You're held in tightly with magnets. Could this not be adapted to do the same as USB-C? And then, there's the fact that this was designed by engineers with no sense of consumers. There are maybe a dozen different kinds of USB-C. Some for data only, some for charging. Different combinations. Were's the markings? How can you tell you've got the right kind?
When you buy a device, you get a cable. A standard lightning cable to USB-A cost $29. Too high? Go to Amazon and monoprice or a million other places for cheaper ones. Or go to Amazon again and pick up a woven insulation, or a Kevlar one if you want. Freely available. Most, but not all, cheaper than Apple.
I believe the EU is picking on the wrong products. It is not the phones with many different types of chargers, it is all the other different electronic devices we all have. I have boxes of unknown power supplies for network gear, cordless phones, calculators, etc. I know it is not possible to make a universal cord/power supply, but they could designate several types that would reduce the multitude of different types. You have PS for many different voltages and current capacities, different plugs with different polarities. At least require manufactures to put labels on them for the devices they are designed for.
I doubt very seriously that the EU would "outlaw" any existing design that would requires us dispose of our current types. What is the problem having 2 types? vs the multitude of types for other products. At least Apple has a common standard for my iPhone, Apple remote, and iPad.
I doubt very seriously that the EU would "outlaw" any existing design that would requires us dispose of our current types. What is the problem having 2 types? vs the multitude of types for other products. At least Apple has a common standard for my iPhone, Apple remote, and iPad.
Well that's the overlord bureaucracy for ya. What do you expect?
What I love about this is how people with a modicum of tech knowledge know full well how stupid this is....yet don't recognize one simple fact:
These completely detached governing bodies are equally inept and incapable at governing everything else as they are at weighing in on technology.
What I love about this is how people with a modicum of tech knowledge know full well how stupid this is....yet don't recognize one simple fact:
These completely detached governing bodies are equally inept and incapable at governing everything else as they are at weighing in on technology.
A few things to clarify:
Standards are necessary so society can function. Some standards, like bluetooth and wifi that are borne from consortiums, make our tech lives easier, is not regulated by government and society will not collapse if someone else offers up their "own bluetooth" protocol.
Government getting involved with micro-managing tech standards, like ports, screen resolution, bezel thickness etc serves nobody and kills innovation.
Who is this "we" you are referring to. What "we" want is different on a person by person basis.
What does price have to do with anything? You are conflating things.
Consortiums among major manufacturers would best to solve the problems. Standards are important, whether it wireless or Cat5 or 6. Connectors and wiring are standardized. Hard to force one manufacturer to use another's technology without getting into patent and licensing hassles.