EU Officially Objects to Apple Limiting Third-Party Access to Apple Pay NFC Capabilities

[BaldiMac]

On this, you have a point. I misused the word monopoly. What I really meant was "Apple were unnecessarily restricting the technology customers had purchased in a way that effectively prevents competition NFC payment service on Apple branded technology".

Alternatively, Apple was monetizing a new feature of their product as a new competitor in a relatively new market. And the banks were asking for a piece of this new tech from this new competitor into a market that they collectively dominate.

 

[RadioHedgeFund]

So, by these numbers Apple Pay was used in less than 5% of transactions after 2 years. How does that support your claim that they were the real monopoly before they entered the market?

Australia is a terrible example. It has 20m people spread very thinly. What we need is a more densely populated country as an example.

In the UK in 2021 Apple Pay was used by 60% of the population to make a transaction. That is 42m people using it to make at least one transaction. In 2021 there were 13bn contactless payments made in the UK alone which rough maths gives us 7.8bn Apple Pay transactions in 2021. That is 247 Apple Pay transactions a second! For the record Google Pay makes up 33% of the population for contactless payments. Only 7% are conducted by just a bank card tap or other means.

Whilst hardly a monopoly, Apple does have the largest market share of the 2 major players.

 

[I7guy]

I guess you are against FRAND agreements as well. And that apple was in the wrong for suing Qualcomm for taking out a higher fee than they liked even tho they signed the contract?

Nope. There is money involved in FRAND and FRAND ensures a level playing field. The ios app store is not FRAND, it is intellectual property of Apple and the government literally wants to give it to the people.

 

[BaldiMac]

Australia is a terrible example. It has 20m people spread very thinly. What we need is a more densely populated country as an example.

In the UK in 2021 Apple Pay was used by 60% of the population to make a transaction. That is 42m people using it to make at least one transaction. In 2021 there were 13bn contactless payments made in the UK alone which rough maths gives us 7.8bn Apple Pay transactions in 2021. That is 247 Apple Pay transactions a second! For the record Google Pay makes up 33% of the population for contactless payments. Only 7% are conducted by just a bank card tap or other means.

Whilst hardly a monopoly, Apple does have the largest market share of the 2 major players.

You should look a bit critically at the numbers you linked to. They don't pass the smell test.

93% of US smartphones with Apple Pay? Completely made up.

 

[RadioHedgeFund]

You should look a bit critically at the numbers you linked to. They don't pass the smell test.

93% of US smartphones with Apple Pay? Completely made up.

If you read the blurb it actually means 93% of iPhones had Apple pay compared to 39% in 2018, not smartphones.

 

[BaldiMac]

If you read the blurb it actually means 93% of iPhones had Apple pay compared to 39% in 2018, not smartphones.

That's my point. It makes some claims that need to be qualified. Likewise, 60% of UK population that you quoted seems quite impossible. As is your 7.8 billion Apple Pay transactions in the UK in 2021. Only 7% use bank card? Nope. Basically, your whole post is based on ********.

 

[Hessian]

Big tech and their many products and solutions have become pillars of modern society -There's no way our governments can simply let them profit freely off our infrastructure without restrictions.

Anyone who thinks the EU shouldn't meddle doesn't grasp the magnitude of Apple's impact on our lives.

All of this is just common sense.

"Freely from our infrastructure without restrictions"? Whose infrastructure specifically and how are they doing so without restrictions? Wondering if the trigger is freedom or profits (or both) lol.

These bureaucrats are still the same old lords and ladies sustaining power by ruling the merchants and the peasants. They produce nothing, generally have below average skill sets for the typical workplace, and only portray value through wielding power. Know this - They are the ruling class (elected, birthed, appointed, or declared matters quite little). Any upstart merchant who gains too much power must be held in check by them...

 

[RadioHedgeFund]

That's my point. It makes some claims that need to be qualified. Likewise, 60% of UK population that you quoted seems quite impossible. As is your 7.8 billion Apple Pay transactions in the UK in 2021. Only 7% use bank card? Nope. Basically, your whole post is based on ********.

Let’s re-examine a few things and clarify. My numbers were slightly off as obviously 60% of the whole population cannot use a phone as we would be counting babies and children! So this leaves 53m adults, 31.8m of which used Apple Pay. Apple sold close to 70m iPhones in the UK by 2019 so that’s not too far off the mark.

I also live in the UK and about 7% of contactless transactions being card-only is about right. There are a lot of people with iPhones!

 

[BaldiMac]

Let’s re-examine a few things and clarify. My numbers were slightly off as obviously 60% of the whole population cannot use a phone as we would be counting babies and children! So this leaves 53m adults, 31.8m of which used Apple Pay. Apple sold close to 70m iPhones in the UK by 2019 so that’s not too far off the mark.

I also live in the UK and about 7% of contactless transactions being card-only is about right. There are a lot of people with iPhones!

You're just guessing at this point.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

The only thing needed is for iMessage to support WhatsApp or signals protocol, and then send the message to their respective servers depending on what service the recipient uses.

Those protocols are internal and unpublished so that they can maintain the security of them. You’re suggestion that WhatsApp tells Apple and Signal how they protect their customers? That’s a non-starter.

There IS a way to have this flexibility you’re talking about. It’s a balancing problem just like a lot of technology, flexibility vs. security. Make the solution more like email, remove e2ee and some of the assumed security protections, and it becomes possible.

It’s this
Security |*—————————|Flexibility

or this
Security |-————————-*|Flexibility

not this
Security |*————————-*|Flexibility

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Those protocols are internal and unpublished so that they can maintain the security of them. You’re suggestion that WhatsApp tells Apple and Signal how they protect their customers? That’s a non-starter.

There IS a way to have this flexibility you’re talking about. It’s a balancing problem just like a lot of technology, flexibility vs. security. Make the solution more like email, remove e2ee and some of the assumed security protections, and it becomes possible.

It’s this
Security |*—————————|Flexibility

or this
Security |-————————-*|Flexibility

not this
Security |*————————-*|Flexibility

These protocols have nothing to do with security. Every banking system uses publicly known security protocols in order to work with competitive banks.

This is asymmetrical encryption. There is no risk as long the private key stays on your device there is no ability to decrypt your information.

iMessage uses the 1280-bit RSA public key encryption and 128-bit AES, and signed with ECDSA under a 256-bit NIST curve. One of the oldest protocols

WhatsApp uses an opensoftware protocol *the signal* and is one of the best currently.

Signal uses the same protocol.

Ther is no technical or security reasons for cross platform communication outside of no will

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Those protocols are internal and unpublished so that they can maintain the security of them. You’re suggestion that WhatsApp tells Apple and Signal how they protect their customers? That’s a non-starter.

There IS a way to have this flexibility you’re talking about. It’s a balancing problem just like a lot of technology, flexibility vs. security. Make the solution more like email, remove e2ee and some of the assumed security protections, and it becomes possible.

It’s this
Security |*—————————|Flexibility

or this
Security |-————————-*|Flexibility

not this
Security |*————————-*|Flexibility

Here you even have a free open source solution freely available for apple or other to use. Showing it’s a literal artificial limit.

Bridges

Matrix, the open protocol for secure decentralised communications

matrix.org

And all the messaging services it works with currently

 

[Sophisticatednut]

American users are pretty ignorant about how Western Europe and Australia, and probably Japan at the very least, handle paying by credit card at stores and restaurants.

Giving your card to someone who then walks away from your table and doesn’t bring the card back for 4 or 5 minutes is just about the most insecure thing that anyone could possibly do security wise. They could write everything down or just take a front/back picture of the card or buy something and use their phone camera to use the credit card to buy something immediately on some companies website before they bring it back.

American banking, stores, and entertainment locations like restaurants aren’t going to push for better security because it will cost them to buy more secure readers for staff to use so the customer doesn’t need to give someone their card and have them literally walk away somewhere out of sight to process the payment. Even if your restaurant bill is accurate the number and security codes could have been copied and used an hour or a day or a month later to provide distance between whoever stole your identity and the restaurant/shop where he stole it from you.

That’s the crazy part. Why would you ever allow a person to touch your card. And why wouldn’t the government push banks to use higher security standards such as chip and pin as a standard

 

[dk001]

That’s the crazy part. Why would you ever allow a person to touch your card. And why wouldn’t the government push banks to use higher security standards such as chip and pin as a standard

Here in the US I am seeing more and more lower end chain restaurants and fast food being touchless. At the higher end establishments, nope. It appears to be (and I could be wrong) more of a status to have someone do the “work” for you.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Here in the US I am seeing more and more lower end chain restaurants and fast food being touchless. At the higher end establishments, nope. It appears to be (and I could be wrong) more of a status to have someone do the “work” for you.

Honestly I always thought it was a movie only thing. I have never heard anyone in Europe giving away their card and I have never experienced it.

I just think how they will take a copy of your card ?

 

[dk001]

Honestly I always thought it was a movie only thing. I have never heard anyone in Europe giving away their card and I have never experienced it.

I just think how they will take a copy of your card ?

It happens here and lately with the relaxing on criminality by the left, here in Los Angeles it is growing.
Do a basic Google search…..

 

[Sophisticatednut]

It happens here and lately with the relaxing on criminality by the left, here in Los Angeles it is growing.
Do a basic Google search…..

I believe you, it’s still hard to believe people can be that dumb. Like giving your house key to the mailman to just enter your house.

Same way I always find it absurd with school shootings and my private company can do whatever it wants mentality

 

[5232152]

Yes, the government wants to force apple to give everybody who has not contributed a dime to the development of iPhone or its software a free ride.

Man, you gotta read some more on these things. lol

 

[I7guy]

Man, you gotta read some more on these things. lol

Exactly how is this untrue?

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Exactly how is this untrue?

More what is even close to true? Nothing is to be used for free by force. No IP is violated. And nothing is given away for free.

Xcode is free.
iOS is free
iPhones are owned by consumers.
Apple AppStore distribution rights costs 99$ a year.

 

[I7guy]

More what is even close to true? Nothing is to be used for free by force. No IP is violated. And nothing is given away for free.

Xcode is free.
iOS is free
iPhones are owned by consumers.
Apple AppStore distribution rights costs 99$ a year.

Guess we have different definitions. Not surprising though in this internet day and age.

 

[BaldiMac]

More what is even close to true? Nothing is to be used for free by force. No IP is violated. And nothing is given away for free.

Xcode is free.
iOS is free
iPhones are owned by consumers.
Apple AppStore distribution rights costs 99$ a year.

The condiments and utensils are free at the fast food place. But if they aren't allowed to charge for the burgers, that would no longer be true.

And of course Apple's IP rights are violated. They licensed them under specific terms. The government is interfering in those terms.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

These protocols have nothing to do with security. Every banking system uses publicly known security protocols in order to work with competitive banks.

The working goal of a BANKING system is SHARING information. They reduce security to allow the flexibility of interoperability. There is no interoperability for messaging unless they, too, reduce security.

Ther is no technical or security reasons for cross platform communication outside of no will

Absolutely right. SMS exists today for cross platform communication. It’s not secure, but it exists for everyone that doesn’t value security.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Here you even have a free open source solution freely available for apple or other to use. Showing it’s a literal artificial limit.

Bridges

Matrix, the open protocol for secure decentralised communications

matrix.org

And all the messaging services it works with currently
View attachment 2002165

If it supposedly works currently, then no one needs to make any changes to anything. All good!

 

[dk001]

The working goal of a BANKING system is SHARING information. They reduce security to allow the flexibility of interoperability. There is no interoperability for messaging unless they, too, reduce security.


Absolutely right. SMS exists today for cross platform communication. It’s not secure, but it exists for everyone that doesn’t value security.

So not true.
I would love a more secure messaging however if the iPhone users are using iMessage that leaves you very little option on the non-Apple side. Not a personal choice; a forced choice.