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macar00n

macrumors 6502
Aug 6, 2021
338
1,018
Not sure if anyone has posted this yet but the worst part about opening it up to everyone is that banks can then force you to use their own proprietary contactless payment app. Not sure if it's still the case but when I had a Pixel 5 last year I was unable to add my Barclays card to Google Pay as Barclays only allowed contactless payments through their own app. A nightmare if you want to regularly switch between different cards from different banks. This fragmentation is a bit like the opposite of their USB-C decision which aims to simplify and standardise.
Oh my god this is the worst, why are so many legislators worldwide pushing to turn iOS into the trash hell already available to consumers elsewhere
 

vipergts2207

macrumors 601
Apr 7, 2009
4,168
9,235
Columbus, OH
c.f. Tyranny of the Majority
Democracy is not perfect, but it's better than every other alternative. Better that a majority make the rules than a single despot. Of course, this ignores the guardrails put in place to prevent actual tyranny from occurring, but I digress.
 

deeddawg

macrumors G5
Jun 14, 2010
12,223
6,351
US
Democracy is not perfect, but it's better than every other alternative. Better that a majority make the rules than a single despot. Of course, this ignores the guardrails put in place to prevent actual tyranny from occurring, but I digress.

There a wide range of options between "pure" or "direct" democracy and a singlular all powerful leader (regent/dictator/etc).

It is not either/or.
 

vipergts2207

macrumors 601
Apr 7, 2009
4,168
9,235
Columbus, OH
There a wide range of options between "pure democracy" and a single all powerful leader (regent/dictator/etc).

It is not either/or.
Correct, and we are in fact somewhere in between a pure democracy and a dictatorship. Two accurate descriptions of the governance structure of western nations are 'representative democracy' and 'constitutional democracy'. So which system is it that you believe is superior to these and that you'd like to replace them with?
 

squirrellydw

macrumors regular
Nov 22, 2003
239
337
Apple and Google should just stop selling and supporting anything in the EU, let the EU have all the China crap and see if they like that
 
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vipergts2207

macrumors 601
Apr 7, 2009
4,168
9,235
Columbus, OH
I would really like to see that.
My prediction is Apple would lose big time for doing such a thing.
Yeah, some people here seem to anthropomorphize Apple and pretend that the company has feelings. Forum members might have strong emotions one way or the other, but Apple does not. It's a giant corporation that's accountable to shareholders. People are fantasizing about Apple holding a grudge and disabling NFC to "teach the EU a lesson," when in reality Apple will simply look at the numbers and realize that forgoing Apple Pay in the EU will cost them a lot of income. Honestly, they probably don't even need to look at the numbers to reach that conclusion and make a decision not to do such a stupid thing.
 

M3gatron

Suspended
Sep 2, 2019
799
605
Spain
That's not even remotely the same thing. States ≠ companies. And the EU would suffer as much as, if not more than, Apple if it were ever to pull out entirely.
Are you sure?
If Apple would "pull out entirely" Android OEMs would just replace them while Apple will effectively lose billion of dollars and shrink their business. No to mention the PR bomb that would follow like a domino effect on Apple's entire business.
So EU will not suffer at all.
 
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Gasu E.

macrumors 603
Mar 20, 2004
5,029
3,145
Not far from Boston, MA.
Perhaps a lawyer can jump in for this question: when a company is accused of antitrust behavior, isn't there a requirement that consumers are forced to use the product, or are at least significantly disadvantaged if they don't?

I mean it in the context of, no one is really forced to buy an iPhone, anyone can easily switch to Android. I contrast that with Microsoft's antitrust in the 90s, where they had 90% market share and much of the software was only available on Windows, which de facto forced everyone onto Windows.

It depends on how one defines "market". You chose to define it as "all smart phone users". But, as far as the product class called "smart phone apps" is concerned, one could easily define a market known as "all iPhone users", since it is a distinct class and there are barriers to users switching between iPhone and other brands (specifically, the Apple ecosystem). Any legal definition of "market" would take these things into consideration. I'm not going to get into a debate as to whether XYZ makes "iPhones" a valid market or not, only pointing out that those are the kinds of considerations in any anti-trust action. (And for anyone who doesn't understand that the Apple ecosystem presents a switching barrier, please get hold of any book on microeconomics, strategy, or marketing and look up "switching barrier" in the index).
 

jarman92

macrumors 65816
Nov 13, 2014
1,448
4,515
Are you sure?
If Apple would "pull out entirely" Android OEMs would just replace them while Apple will effectively lose billion of dollars and shrink their business. No to mention the PR bomb that would follow like a domino effect on Apple's entire business.
So EU will not suffer at all.

Oh no? And what of the tens of millions of iOS users—not to mention businesses—in the EU who suddenly have no way to purchase the products they need or get support for the products they have? And the hundreds of billions, if not trillions, of euros lost from the EU economy? Don't be obtuse.
 

jarman92

macrumors 65816
Nov 13, 2014
1,448
4,515
Yeah, I mixed couple of things, because I didn’t know that to get an access to NFC with Apple Wallet, a special entitlement and permissions from Apple is needed. So a regular app can use NFC easily (only not for money transfer ect.), but a Wallet pass would need an NDA with Apple. So I understood your comment / point wrong. Sorry about that.

Wow...that's a first haha. No apology necessary.
 

M3gatron

Suspended
Sep 2, 2019
799
605
Spain
Yea, and the EU would even get more flooded with all those Chinese phones… but I guess those are more trustworthy
Oh so Eu is flooded now? It need Apple to save them from Chinese phones?
It doesn't matter it they are more trustworthy or not, they would be present and available for people to buy while iphones would be out.
 
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Gasu E.

macrumors 603
Mar 20, 2004
5,029
3,145
Not far from Boston, MA.
Yeah, some people here seem to anthropomorphize Apple and pretend that the company has feelings. Forum members might have strong emotions one way or the other, but Apple does not. It's a giant corporation that's accountable to shareholders. People are fantasizing about Apple holding a grudge and disabling NFC to "teach the EU a lesson," when in reality Apple will simply look at the numbers and realize that forgoing Apple Pay in the EU will cost them a lot of income. Honestly, they probably don't even need to look at the numbers to reach that conclusion and make a decision not to do such a stupid thing.

Not to anthropomorphize Apple, but sometimes there is a game-theoretic strategy in which corporations make a sub-optimal shorter term choice to fight something, in order to discourage future actions against them. An example would be choosing expensive defenses against nuisance lawsuits. I don't see such a play here, offhand, but I'm not a corporate strategist, so I haven't spent much effort analyzing this.
 

deeddawg

macrumors G5
Jun 14, 2010
12,223
6,351
US
Correct, and we are in fact somewhere in between a pure democracy and a dictatorship. Two accurate descriptions of the governance structure of western nations are 'representative democracy' and 'constitutional democracy'. So which system is it that you believe is superior to these and that you'd like to replace them with?
I've not suggested making any replacements, perhaps you meant to address your question to someone else.

Still, if you wish to perform a comparative analysis I imagine it'd be interesting to read. Do remember to begin first with defining exactly what "is superior" means to the various constituents and the likely contradictions between those party's interests.
 

M3gatron

Suspended
Sep 2, 2019
799
605
Spain
Oh no? And what of the tens of millions of iOS users—not to mention businesses—in the EU who suddenly have no way to purchase the products they need or get support for the products they have? And the hundreds of billions, if not trillions, of euros lost from the EU economy? Don't be obtuse.
Those tens of millions of furious and disappointed Apple users that would stop buying their products? You don't believe this situation would affect Apple more that an unelected administrative body?

And the hundreds of billions, if not trillions, of euros lost from the EU economy?

Apple has no production and any meaningful product development in Europe so I don't understand what trillions of euros are you taking about. I'm definitely not the one that's obtuse.

Apple has absolutely no leverage vs the EU.
 

gene731

macrumors 6502
Oct 28, 2015
407
423
EU bureaucrats at their best ... do they really represent the needs of the people? I doubt it very much
All I ever see the EU doing is suing American companies. It is like their personal slush fund. We need a couple of billion dollars, quick check the stock and see who is worth the most and we will go after them.
 

deeddawg

macrumors G5
Jun 14, 2010
12,223
6,351
US
Not to anthropomorphize Apple, but sometimes there is a game-theoretic strategy in which corporations make a sub-optimal shorter term choice to fight something, in order to discourage future actions against them. An example would be choosing expensive defenses against nuisance lawsuits. I don't see such a play here, offhand, but I'm not a corporate strategist, so I haven't spent much effort analyzing this.
.. and while I agree we shouldn't typically anthropomorphize a corporation, it is also myopic to ignore that the leadership (executives & board) are humans with feelings -- who can certainly fudge projections to emphasize a course of action that they have a degree of emotional basis for wanting to take.

As for companies choosing a path with short term adverse impacts in expectation of greater long term gains, well that's not exactly uncommon - though not typically at the scale of exiting a substantial market. I suspect there may be a middle-ground between doing everything the EU commands and dropping all iphones and watches in the EU market - be interesting to see what'd happen if they released an EU-specific model with USBC and no NFC/applepay.
 

AppleMad98004

macrumors 6502a
Aug 23, 2011
617
846
Cylde Hill, WA
Apple is not an open platform. If Apple banned all third party apps and services from their phones they could. It is their business.

I can't buy a Whopper at McDonalds. You just drive down and go to Burger King or skip the Apple store and buy Android. There is an alternative it is called Android which is much bigger. People know they can't use other services it is consumer choice.

Until the EU lets me buy a Mercedes with a BMW engine shut your trap.
 

vipergts2207

macrumors 601
Apr 7, 2009
4,168
9,235
Columbus, OH
I've not suggested making any replacements, perhaps you meant to address your question to someone else.

Still, if you wish to perform a comparative analysis I imagine it'd be interesting to read. Do remember to begin first with defining exactly what "is superior" means to the various constituents and the likely contradictions between those party's interests.
If you're not suggesting a replacement then I'm not sure what the point was in bringing up the existence of other forms of government. The only conclusion I can reach is that you in fact agree that democracy is the least bad form of government, but wanted to have something to say, regardless of how useful the response was in furthering the discussion.

Superior is subjective, however I think a widely held belief on what makes democracy better than every other option is having a say in how one's government is run. If enough people don't like something, they have the power to change it through their vote. I think it's safe to say that any form of government where you have no power to effect change can automatically be deemed inferior. So something superior to that would be a system where each person is even more empowered to make decisions for themselves, while simultaneously having something in place that ensures those decisions do not have significant impacts on others, as no man is an island. This is no easy task, and if there were a better system, someone would have likely come up with it by now. Again I digress, as I don't think there is a realistic alternative that is superior to democracy. That was kind of your implication.
 

Rigby

macrumors 603
Aug 5, 2008
6,210
10,148
San Jose, CA
Those tens of millions of furious and disappointed Apple users that would stop buying their products? You don't believe this situation would affect Apple more that an unelected administrative body?
Just pointing out that the EU isn't "unelected". The EU parliament (which the EU Commission is accountable to) is elected by the people, and the EU Council represents the member countries (which have their own democratically elected governments).
 

vipergts2207

macrumors 601
Apr 7, 2009
4,168
9,235
Columbus, OH
.. and while I agree we shouldn't typically anthropomorphize a corporation, it is also myopic to ignore that the leadership (executives & board) are humans with feelings -- who can certainly fudge projections to emphasize a course of action that they have a degree of emotional basis for wanting to take.

As for companies choosing a path with short term adverse impacts in expectation of greater long term gains, well that's not exactly uncommon - though not typically at the scale of exiting a substantial market. I suspect there may be a middle-ground between doing everything the EU commands and dropping all iphones and watches in the EU market - be interesting to see what'd happen if they released an EU-specific model with USBC and no NFC/applepay.
This completely ignores that the decision behind making NFC unavailable to third-parties is almost certainly financial, at least in part. Do you think Apple doesn't enjoy that 0.15% from every Apple Pay transaction? That surely adds up to a huge sum of money in a market of 446 million people. And they're going to forgo all of that rather than allow competition to perhaps take a piece of it? That makes zero sense and is exactly the kind of situation you yourself outlined when you said "well that's not exactly uncommon - though not typically at the scale of exiting a substantial market."

Apple is not an open platform. If Apple banned all third party apps and services from their phones they could. It is their business.

I can't buy a Whopper at McDonalds. You just drive down and go to Burger King or skip the Apple store and buy Android. There is an alternative it is called Android which is much bigger. People know they can't use other services it is consumer choice.

Until the EU lets me buy a Mercedes with a BMW engine shut your trap.
The EU is a not free and open market. If the EU banned all iPhones and services from their phones they could. It is their business.
 
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