EU Regulators Accept Apple Commitments to Open NFC Access to Rivals

[hans1972]

What's the difference? Is there anything you're missing from Apple Pay?

The problem is that it opens up for each bank (or group of banks) to have their own wallet and not support Apple Pay.

So if you have four different credit cards to get different kind of kickbacks, you might end up with none of them supporting Apple Pay, but needing four different wallets.

This is already happening in Norway, where banks withdraws from Apple Pay, Norway's largest bank never supported it, and they're now going with their own solution (a large group of banks).

 

[alayal]

I've been in favour of every EU ruling so far but this is one that I don't think anyone will want. If every bank starts forcing its users to use their own app for contactless payments just to save the 0.15% in Apple Pay fees then nobody will use them. It will become more convenient (and less secure) to just carry a physical wallet again. With any luck it will be EU-only.

However opening up NFC in general is long overdue. Being able to switch Focus modes by tapping an NFC sticker or spoofing amiibo tags will be more welcome.

pretty sure you can do this already with shortcuts

 

[hans1972]

I think the idea is to have a multiple apps that mimic the capacity of apple wallet. So other and apple can make extra dollars (actually euros). So this is not about making this more convenient for the end-user but for EU’s Banks.

Only one wallet app can be default.

Will a wallet app from bank A support a credit card from their largest competitor B?

 

[hans1972]

A bank is not in the business to lose customers, so if a bank makes a change which you feel is inconvenient then apparently they made the decision that you are no longer a targeted customer. You in return have full control to decide to switch phones or banks.

True, but switching banks and phone ecosystem is quite an ordeal for a lot of people, and most people won't do it.

 

[alayal]

As EU citizen I think this can back fire. I agree that apple have to open NFC in a secure way, more than nothing to allow transit cards, company cards etc to be added by developers in the iPhone with out going the apple certification route.
on the other hand I will hate if banks in Spain start to withdraw from Apple Pay support in favor of their own solution.

When Apple play was released the only options was Santander Bank, Carrefour Card and AMEX, I used Carrefour Card for a long time until other banks were compatible, I will hate to go backwards instead of forwards.

 

[hans1972]

Now phones are a standardised platform, the innovation however comes in the form of software and having one company act as the sole gatekeeper on that for a quarter of the population of the planet isn’t good for anyone no matter how benevolent they make themselves out to be.

It's good for me, since Apple and I align much more than developers, banks and others.

 

[jz0309]

I am really struggling to understand how this benefits consumers, today, here in the US, I double-click when checking out at the grocery store, using my default card. When I go to Costco, I doubleclick and swipe to the card that Costco accepts, when I go to my banks ATM, I doubleclick and swipe to my debit card… couldn’t be asked than that.
If I had to launch an app to use their NFC, well, there are places where cellphone reception is poor and makes this approach not feasible…

 

[ProbablyDylan]

This just shows the DMA is not pro consumer, but pro business. There are a few cases where that overlaps, but when push comes to shove, the EU regulators are going to work for European businesses, not European consumers. See also: DMA making Google search worse, browsing the internet being such a terrible experience in Europe, etc.

Is it not a country's (or whatever you want to call the EU) duty to protect their local business against foreign opposition when needed? See the US constantly propping up domestic automakers for example.

Anyways, it seems like in Europe it is indeed easier to switch banks. Apparently, the new bank coordinates switching everything over from the old bank. As an American that switched to a credit union recently, I have to admit I am a little jealous about how seamless it sounds.

 

[GrayFlannel]

True, but switching banks and phone ecosystem is quite an ordeal for a lot of people, and most people won't do it.

Then they made their choice.
Change occurs when the pain of staying exceeds the pain of leaving.

 

[hans1972]

Then they made their choice.
Change occurs when the pain of staying exceeds the pain of leaving.

Yes, but that's why I'm against it.

I don't want anything which benefits banks or Apple's competitors.

 

[rp2011]

This is getting out of hand. What's the point of innovating then? Is it any wonder the EU is not a hotbed of innovation? That is not to say we do not have the same foolishness here with clueless politicians, but this has to stop. This stifles innovation. Apple has to be allowed to have differential features for competitive purposes. These are anti-business legislations plain and simple. This is completely insane.

 

[jz0309]

Is it not a country's (or whatever you want to call the EU) duty to protect their local business against foreign opposition when needed? See the US constantly propping up domestic automakers for example.

Anyways, it seems like in Europe it is indeed easier to switch banks. Apparently, the new bank coordinates switching everything over from the old bank. As an American that switched to a credit union recently, I have to admit I am a little jealous about how seamless it sounds.

Well, the EU is certainly not a country but a “union” of many countries. And the countries within the EU do protect their local industries too, Germany and their carmakers come to mind. And, Germany and the VW, MB etc were against tariffs on Chinese EVs, but the EU decided differently, so who did the EU “protect” here…
I don’t know how easy it is to switch banks within the EU, but things vary from country to country: I remember in the very early 90s traveling within France in a restaurant they brought you a mobile device to pay, and in Germany, in 2021 most restaurants in medium sized cities still not accepting credit cards, and good luck trying to use a credit card in a grocery store…
But whatever, the DMA and now this NFC are to protect businesses, and the EU has the right to do so. They are not imho for the benefit of the consumer necessarily though

 

[JustSomebody12]

It must be WAY easier to switch banks in the EU than other countries. All my auto-pay and automatic deductions and then direct deposit make it almost impossible to move in a quick amount of time. I.e. it takes weeks to do it's not a simple thing so I'm not sure using that as an excuse/reason is a viable one.

You open a new bank account, and communicate your new IBAN to all the services which charge or send you money.

In some member states, such as Italy, I think the bank can automatically receive the new IBAN.

I've been frequently told switching to Android is practically impossible if you're an iPhone user, which is a major reason why the DMA is needed to police a phone manufacturer with <30% of the market in the EU, but customers are going to SWITCH BANKS if the bank stops supporting Apple Pay?

This just shows the DMA is not pro consumer, but pro business. There are a few cases where that overlaps, but when push comes to shove, the EU regulators are going to work for European businesses, not European consumers. See also: DMA making Google search worse, browsing the internet being such a terrible experience in Europe, etc.

The competition mandate of the European Commission was about avoiding monopoly for consumers and competitors, with the reasoning that if no challenger is effectively capable of competing, the monopolist could reduce the quality of service or hinder innovation.

Google search being worse is a point where I agree.

What if all the banks in one country is behind one payment solution like in Norway?

What?

Anyway, I see an overblown thing out of this regulatory enforcement, probably nothing will change for 90% of European customers (pretty much like all android users default to Google Pay)

 

[ThomasPicard]

thanx EU for nothing /

There is no advantage for us users - nobody needed that..

And as a "thank you" we don't get iPhone Mirroring, etc ..

EU should leave these things alone - the user knows what he buys - I don't wanna be "saved" by the EU

 

[GrayFlannel]

Yes, but that's why I'm against it.

I don't want anything which benefits banks or Apple's competitors.

In that case, I have no issue with your opinion.

The context of my post that you originally quoted was to someone who was concerned about inconvenience. Your opinion, while most valid, was outside that context.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Do you know of any technical reason those gov'ts and transport services aren't integrating with Apple Wallet? Because it seems like that's their recalcitrance, not Apple's.

The functionality not being there or other technical means. Especially considering it’s made by the private market using government APIs to validate the information.

It’s not the government who makes the eID software or implements it. It would need to be Apple who provided the support in their app.

Example in Sweden ( this is true everywhere in different regards) eID is done by the banks( collectively speaking) called BankID that have been available since 2011.

Example this would be great if Apple wallet actually had such support. But it has instead been implemented by other apps after the NFC chip was opened up.

Or the function of sending money between two iOS users are kind of limited compared to using Swish that functions between everyone that is likely a decade older than apples implementation.

And likely part cost not justifying the implementation in to the wallet considering Purchasing inside the app is free and Apple charges between 27% and 39% of the credit card issuers' income earned from the acquirer is a very hefty fee for little to no benefit ( compared to existing minimum security standards legally enforced in EU compared to the USA)

Absolutely. But the point remains—in the US, I get to use cards/contactless everywhere and still get great perks from my bank/issuer.

Well it’s your banks option. We can also use contactless payment everywhere as it’s obligatory to be supported. And have been able to do that for a long while.

 

[ProbablyDylan]

Well, the EU is certainly not a country but a “union” of many countries. And the countries within the EU do protect their local industries too, Germany and their carmakers come to mind. And, Germany and the VW, MB etc were against tariffs on Chinese EVs, but the EU decided differently, so who did the EU “protect” here…
I don’t know how easy it is to switch banks within the EU, but things vary from country to country: I remember in the very early 90s traveling within France in a restaurant they brought you a mobile device to pay, and in Germany, in 2021 most restaurants in medium sized cities still not accepting credit cards, and good luck trying to use a credit card in a grocery store…
But whatever, the DMA and now this NFC are to protect businesses, and the EU has the right to do so. They are not imho for the benefit of the consumer necessarily though

Hence my "whatever you want to call it" remark. Ultimately, nobody should be surprised by protectionist behavior from any governmental body. This is business as usual.

That said, I'm surprised about the outcry about this. After all of this, what changes for the end user? Double pressing the lock button for payments opens a different app?

Moreover, it's in a bank's interest to keep their users banking with them. If supporting Apple Pay is a means to that end they could decide to just eat that cost. They could decide to offer incentives to use their tap-to-pay app to try to sway people that way.

TL;DR, this isn't new or unusual and we are yet to see how it plays out.

 

[GrayFlannel]

Its just a shame that 1% of US transactions are contactless compared to 90% in the UK and Australia I'd be amazed if there weren't still huge numbers of businesses using those old carbon-copy machines for credit card receipts!

Small correction… ~51% of American use contactless payment.

More than half of Americans now use contactless payments, according to Mastercard poll

The ongoing coronavirus pandemic has bolstered the number of Americans using contactless payments to 51%, according to a new Mastercard poll.

www.cnbc.com

 

[davide_eu]

Yeah, reading about it makes me sick, but mostly just sad. I would rather Apple went the other way. I want them to say, "This is the product we make and this is how it works, if that is something you are interested in, we welcome you as a customer, if not please purchase one of our competitors products." If the EU or any other governing bodies don't like it, ban them from doing business in your area of governance. I'm an Apple share holder so it would hurt my position some, but at least I could buy a product designed and developed by engineers and not bureaucrats and politicians.

I don't want it to go the other way, because I know a lot of people with less than half a brain who would call me instead of AppleCare. 😁

Imagine: "This is our car: it doesn't have any system to reduce the impact on the environment but it is cheaper! If you want to save the environment buy a more expansive car from another brand."

Do you agree?

 

[davide_eu]

It will happen when/if Trump is elected president. He really hates the EU and will easily be convinced that the EU is only targeting American companies.

No more Boeing flights above Europe... too dangerous... does it make sense to you?

 

[davide_eu]

if you have four different credit cards to get different kind of kickbacks, you might end up with none of them supporting Apple Pay, but needing four different wallets.

Open the right wallet before paying? Too complex?

 

[Sophisticatednut]

The problem is that it opens up for each bank (or group of banks) to have their own wallet and not support Apple Pay.

So if you have four different credit cards to get different kind of kickbacks, you might end up with none of them supporting Apple Pay, but needing four different wallets.

This is already happening in Norway, where banks withdraws from Apple Pay, Norway's largest bank never supported it, and they're now going with their own solution (a large group of banks).

No it doesn’t unless your bank is not European.

Only one wallet app can be default.

Will a wallet app from bank A support a credit card from their largest competitor B? True, but switching banks and phone ecosystem is quite an ordeal for a lot of people, and most people won't do it.

Yes it will. It’s not legal to prevent it from working. Just how Walmart not allowing Apple Pay to work would be illegal here.

These are basic functions in society are legally required to be interoperable.

This is getting out of hand. What's the point of innovating then? Is it any wonder the EU is not a hotbed of innovation? That is not to say we do not have the same foolishness here with clueless politicians, but this has to stop. This stifles innovation. Apple has to be allowed to have differential features for competitive purposes. These are anti-business legislations plain and simple. This is completely insane.

Well, the EU is certainly not a country but a “union” of many countries. And the countries within the EU do protect their local industries too, Germany and their carmakers come to mind. And, Germany and the VW, MB etc were against tariffs on Chinese EVs, but the EU decided differently, so who did the EU “protect” here…
I don’t know how easy it is to switch banks within the EU, but things vary from country to country: I remember in the very early 90s traveling within France in a restaurant they brought you a mobile device to pay, and in Germany, in 2021 most restaurants in medium sized cities still not accepting credit cards, and good luck trying to use a credit card in a grocery store…
But whatever, the DMA and now this NFC are to protect businesses, and the EU has the right to do so. They are not imho for the benefit of the consumer necessarily though

Well one thing it’s easier to switch a bank than it is to switch network provider for your phone.

And the issue is the Apple was let is extremely limited in functionality and moves at a snails pase.

Example how on earth would you implement most of the things EU tries to push for here? It’s near impossible if half the citizens can’t even use the same functions as the other half.

 

[davide_eu]

As EU citizen I think this can back fire. I agree that apple have to open NFC in a secure way, more than nothing to allow transit cards, company cards etc to be added by developers in the iPhone with out going the apple certification route.
on the other hand I will hate if banks in Spain start to withdraw from Apple Pay support in favor of their own solution.

When Apple play was released the only options was Santander Bank, Carrefour Card and AMEX, I used Carrefour Card for a long time until other banks were compatible, I will hate to go backwards instead of forwards.

As EU Citizen I like open standards and competition so thank you EU for breaking this monopolistic approach.

 

[jarman92]

The functionality not being there or other technical means. Especially considering it’s made by the private market using government APIs to validate the information.

It’s not the government who makes the eID software or implements it. It would need to be Apple who provided the support in their app.

Example in Sweden ( this is true everywhere in different regards) eID is done by the banks( collectively speaking) called BankID that have been available since 2011.

Example this would be great if Apple wallet actually had such support. But it has instead been implemented by other apps after the NFC chip was opened up.

Or the function of sending money between two iOS users are kind of limited compared to using Swish that functions between everyone that is likely a decade older than apples implementation.

And likely part cost not justifying the implementation in to the wallet considering Purchasing inside the app is free and Apple charges between 27% and 39% of the credit card issuers' income earned from the acquirer is a very hefty fee for little to no benefit ( compared to existing minimum security standards legally enforced in EU compared to the USA)

Well it’s your banks option. We can also use contactless payment everywhere as it’s obligatory to be supported. And have been able to do that for a long while.

I don't speak German Swedish so that video is useless, but I continue to see no technical reason this wouldn't work in Apple Wallet. The gov'ts could have an app that handles the validation then adds an ID to Wallet that can read/transmit info via NFC.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

I don't speak German so that video is useless, but I continue to see no technical reason this wouldn't work in Apple Wallet. The gov'ts could have an app that handles the validation then adds an ID to Wallet that can read/transmit info via NFC.

You don’t need to speak german( it’s Swedish) you can watch the demonstration.

Scan the passport as seen

Scan the passport with the NFC chip pu putting it on it

Scan your face with the faceID