EU to Accuse Apple of Unfairly Blocking Third-Party Access to NFC Payment Technology on iPhone

[I7guy]

[...]

No - they should leverage innovation and competitive pricing.
Leveraging dominant market power in one market to succeed in another, separated and sufficiently unrelated market (e.g, through the practice of tying) is a classic example of anticompetitive behaviour sanctioned by regulation and competition authorities,

No. Costco has the right to be in charge of it's business. Apple has the right to be in charge of it's business. Of course, there are certain laws that all companies have to follow. Apple should be the editorial director of it's app store, it's iphone hardware. People throw around the term tying as if Apple is guilty of it. Apple has been shown to be anti-competitive, which is why these laws are being made. Apple doesn't pay $1B year in attorneys' fees to sit with it's finger up it's butt. These laws are being made because Apple is successful and legally successful and these idiotic regulators want to provide a free ride on apples' popular platform.

 

[vipergts2207]

So you are telling me to "deal with it" but we cannot say "deal with not being able to side-load"? Why is your opinion worth way more than any of ours?

You can say that actually. Though I’ll then just respond that it’s unfortunate for you that things are moving in the direction of folks who have a firm pro-competition viewpoint.

 

[AppliedMicro]

PS: the arguments regarding game streaming apps aren‘t even that wrong or refutable on their own merit. They’re just very obviously carefully crafted as means to an end: to allow Apple to charge for an offering in a market where they do have considerable leverage and market power - while not having to charge for offerings where they don‘t have that market power.

Charge for all games (where Apple enjoy early entry advantage on their platform)
Not having to charge for eBooks, TV shows, streamed movies (they‘re no Disney, HBO or Netflix)

And then justify that.

Apple has the right to be in charge of it's business

Coming back to this thread, their business wasn‘t enabling or processing of mobile retail payments.

These laws are being made because Apple is successful and legally successful.

Almost.
They aren‘t made just because they’re successful.

But they’re made because Apple’s success has
1. been (mostly) legally achieved AND
2. created undesirable effects and market conditions (at least in the eyes of some - including legislators)

The only „safe“ way to do anything about that is by creating new laws.
And it’s certainly more open and honest than „bending“ existing rules and endlessly arguing about them in a court of law.

 

[Beautyspin]

The criteria that Clario used to determine "security" is absurd. Web searches for OS update problems? That has nothing to do with security at all.

How about this?

Android Phones Might Be More Secure Than iPhones Now

What the market for zero-day exploits tells us about our phones

onezero.medium.com

Credit to @RadioHedgeFund

Or this: https://www.bleepstatic.com/content/hl-images/2022/02/25/android-smartphone.jpg?rand=172852887

 

[SFjohn]

Perhaps Apple can give users that buy new iPhones the choice of OS when it’s first set up - either iOS or Android. That way the EU can have everything they want. Perhaps Apple can sell Android iPhones in the EU where no native apps are installed, (just some links to app stores) and users have to find everything to make the device work.

 

[bookofxero]

It's not only banking. Can you talk to 3rd party NFC tags on an Apple phone?

As in call them up and say "hi"? No, you cannot. As in read and interact with them? Yes, you can. Apple released Core NFC in 2017.

 

[Random_Matt]

If Apple decided that the EU can have a new iPhone A range they would still throw a hissy fit.

 

[McDaveH]

Apple will be accused of breaking EU law by unfairly limiting access of its mobile payment system on iPhone to third-party service providers, such as PayPal and Venmo, according to the Financial Times, citing sources familiar with the matter.

According to the report, Apple will be accused of "unfairly blocking groups such as PayPal and leading banks from accessing its mobile wallet system" by the European Union and could face heavy penalties if the accusation moves forward. In specific, the EU is taking issue with Apple's restriction of NFC technology on the iPhone, which Apple does not allow third-party app developers to access.

By limiting access to the NFC chip, services such as PayPal, Venmo, banks, and other financial providers, are unable to provide a similar experience to that of Apple Pay for iPhone users. Apple claims that its restrictions on NFC are in place as a safeguard for user privacy and security.

The new development from the EU comes as Apple faces increasing pressure to open its iPhone to third-party app stores and possibly make iMessage a cross-platform messaging service. New details this week of the "Digital Services Act" soon planned to make its way through the European Parliament and the European Council could force Apple to open its iPhones to other app stores and sideloading, a move that CEO Tim Cook warns would fundamentally change the iPhone.

Article Link: EU to Accuse Apple of Unfairly Blocking Third-Party Access to NFC Payment Technology on iPhone

Why should Apple be forced to adopt someone else's business model? It's not like the 'openness' existed and they unfairly shut it down or disadvantaged competitors. Why should everything have to be open to 3rd-party access just because fools can be tricked with choices?

 

[Beautyspin]

This seems like a great excuse for banks to stop supporting Apple Pay and the Wallet app and instead make us launch their own apps to make payments. Just seems like a way for them to collect more data on us. Seems like a lose lose for consumers since we will lose privacy and the convenience of using one app.

Plus how is this different that what Apple is doing with the upcoming Tap to Pay contactless feature? Apple is opening that up to third parties?

What data would they be collecting? They already have all the data or else they can't process the transaction. After processing the transaction, they have the rest of the data. In fact, it's Apple that is collecting data which it has no right to collect.

 

[Beautyspin]

That ios 5 is even on the list is a testament to how bogus the above is.

So, the Forbes report quoted below that is also bogus?

 

[Lenny Pelullo Slade]

These comments stating that Apple should “just leave the EU” are exhausting and completely ignorant.

The European (of which most is the EU) region is Apple’s second biggest market behind the Americas.

It’s a rich market consisting of nearly half a billion people (in the EU; Europe overall has nearly 750 million people).

The EU wields a lot more power than you may realize. It’s not just a collection of small, insignificant countries with funny languages.

Apple has very deep ties to Europe. There’s a major center in Ireland, they’re investing over a billion euros in a new campus in Munich and they have a development center in the Czech Republic where they’re currently creating a Core OS team. There are numerous other examples I could list.

Even if Apple decided to give up the huge amount of money they get from consumers in the EU, it wouldn’t be “just leaving” the EU. It would also mean leaving a ton of investments, real estate, etc.

EU regulations can be annoying for sure, but many of them make their way to other parts of the world and they’re *mostly* for our (consumers, employees, etc.) protection and benefit.

NB: I generally believe in and support the EU, but I’m not necessarily saying that I agree with everything the EU does in general or what they want from Apple and others in recent happenings. I’m just saying that flippantly stating that Apple should leave the EU market and implying that it wouldn’t be a big deal to do so is shortsighted and ignorant of the facts.

I, personally, would like iCloud apps (including calendar, iMessage, iCloud Drive, reminders, etc.) to be available universally as well as better compatibility between Apple and non-Apple devices as I’d like to try different non-Apple devices and I live in a “mixed” household. It would make things a lot easier for a lot of people.

 

[wanha]

Apple should just pull out of the EU altogether. It’s been nothing but problems and will continue likely to be until this happens. Cook should make it happen.

Apple should forgo one of its biggest markets (sales of $89 billion in FY2021) because of... what exactly?

 

[duffman9000]

That's exactly why so many countries are looking to make sure that is no longer the case.

I don't really care if folks want to use Apple's platform "without giving anything back." I buy Apple's platform because it's useful to me, not because it makes AAPL shareholders money. Definitely won't be losing any sleep over it considering Apple just reported the highest Q2 revenue ever.

So you don’t care if people want to free load off of Apple? If everyone was free loading why would Apple continue to develop features that it wouldn’t see any financial benefit?

 

[amartinez1660]

I’ll repeat my broken record: BootCamp-style this to a blank anyOS of your choosing to do “anything you want with your phone”, maybe provide or partner with someone for a reference barebones implementation, open source it if they will.

Why? You could then pick from any random CPU-coprocessor/neural-engines/GPU drivers, custom modem/battery/etc management profiles, third party AppStores, camera/mic/Bluetooth/WiFi drivers of your choosing, etc… let’s add to that now NFC chip handling.

Why stop at random goal posts like just “NFC” or just “Sideloading”, when it’s probably easier to give them all and let anybody willing have at it…

Caveat: once in that mode, it can’t never go back to iOS in case it could be left in a state where it could gather security enclave date, keys, etc for things like FaceID and others.

Example, on PS3: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/OtherOS

 

[JustSomebody12]

The problem is not security (you can sandbox apps well, especially with ARMv9), the problem is Apple Pay is flawless (much like Google Pay).

On my old Android the bank NFC system was a nightmare to behold.

 

[Lenny Pelullo Slade]

I don’t get how that is so hard to understand to some of these people, they act like they are being forced to install those apps ….

I think that part of the concern is that certain apps may become available exclusively on different app stores and they’d prefer to stick with only Apple’s App Store. ??‍♂️

 

[AppliedMicro]

Perhaps Apple can sell Android iPhones in the EU where no native apps are installed, (just some links to app stores) and users have to find everything to make the device work.

There are unlocked phones today. Hardly anybody is buying them, except a few „believers“ and open source enthusiasts.

That way the EU can have everything they want

I’ll repeat my broken record: BootCamp-style this to a blank anyOS of your choosing to do “anything you want with your phone”, maybe provide or partner with someone for a reference barebones implementation, open source it if they will.

I‘ll also repeat myself here:

The EU DMA proposal targets so-called „core platform services“, which include „online intermediation services“ (such as „software application stores“), „operating systems“ and „ancillary services“ („such as identification or payment services and technical services which support the provision of payment services“) and mandates some interoperability and access for third-party service providers.

Putting it blunt, it does not say something like „if you sell so much hardware devices, you have to do this and allow that“. No, it‘s targeting gatekeepers‘ software and provision of services.

? Offering the choice of an alternative OS would and will not satisfy the EU regulation’s requirements with regard to „proper“ iOS and the App Store - unless most people migrate to that and Apple are substantially losing market share / market power and intermediating role.

This is not going to happen. Neither are customers interested in that, of which most value Apple’s ontegration of hard- and software, nor is it in Apple’s interest ($$$) to give up their role for the majority (or even just a large part) of their customers.

 

[macstuff11]

Nothing, of course. People have swapped engines from different manufacturers for decades now. But you are doing that on your own, without any support from Porsche or hope of a warranty, where the EU wants to force Apple to do things they don't want to do for whatever reason, while maintaining support, warranty, etc.

Putting it a different way. Why isn't the EU forcing Nintendo to allow their consoles to play Playstation games? Or forcing Nintendo to port their software titles onto an XBox? I mean, Nintendo has locked their stuff down for decades. Yet, I'm not seeing any kind of outcry here.

So what makes a game console different from a phone?

Apple's business practices are an issue, and honestly, they should be questioned on some of their decisions and policies. But why is Apple seemingly the one targeted here by the EU over and over? Why aren't other types of products that have very similar locked in experiences, yet there is no push to force those products into becoming a one for all?

The EU isn't forcing Apple to bring iOS or any of its software to Android which would be the equivalent of your analogy. It's just saying to open up the hardware inside the item you bought so that it opens up competition, Apply must be raking it in with Apple Pay because no one has a choice. The equivalent would be, anyone can make games for an iPhone but only Apple gets access to the GPU

 

[Lenny Pelullo Slade]

This is the solution if the kleptocrats in the EU continue this: an EU version of iPhone and iOS.

Charge more for the extra engineering, specific manufacturing and software development so that the people who are advocating for this are paying for it. Everything has a cost and the EU should be the ones to cover it.

I won't comment on the regulations, but just to say that in Europe we already pay a lot more for Apple Products than in the US. I’m from outside of Philadelphia and my 256gb 13 Pro bought there is ~$1,165 (with tax). Here in the Czech Republic it’d be the equivalent of ~$1,377 - about $200 more (where the average salary is much less than the average American salary). Also keep in mind that many of the features of the OS aren’t available throughout all of Europe. Again, I’m not commenting for or against the EU regulations, just noting that we’re already paying more for a product with reduced functionality so charging consumers more than they already are wouldn’t do anyone any good.

 

[boyarka]

I hope EU forces (cr)Apple to allow others in. This whole lie about "but our ecosystem is secure that way!" is just corporate BS for "let us have out monopoly". Free market is free market, this is some ecosystem hegemony as if JUST APPLE of all IT companies know how to make anything.

 

[Lenny Pelullo Slade]

Pretty staggering so many Americans think that a choice between just two operating system vendors is a healthy market situation and is impossible to abuse (ignoring the many examples of yore where duopolies became collusion buddies to cement their hegemony).

You’d think that would be taught in business 101, no?

Sadly, the "biggest" third option never had a chance. I personally loved Windows Phone and really wanted it to succeed. I know that its failure was due to more than just app developers not creating apps, but I really doubt another OS could realistically become a big name in the mobile space at this point. I really do wish that Windows Phone or, honestly, even Blackberry or any other OS were still a viable option. I do love Apple, but I love technology in general more and would love to see more competition.

 

[boyarka]

You don't like Apple?
Just go away and use what you wish.
BuBye.

Yes, "use what you wish", exactly. I do of course, use an android phone that comes shipped with two separate NFC payment services (and more, if I want).
And it's about time Apple users can have choices, and I hope EU shoves those laws deep into Apple's rear end.

 

[I7guy]

[...]

The only „safe“ way to do anything about that is by creating new laws.
[...]

Of course, this is where opinions differ. I disagree, you seemingly agree. Which is, imo, where successful companies who have legal operations have to watch out in the EU, and maybe hold back on technology.

 

[I7guy]

So, the Forbes report quoted below that is also bogus?

Yep, imo. Being Forbes doesn't necessarily guarantee a fair, well-balanced article. Journalism is not a science, it's an art. Ask Dan Rather.

 

[amartinez1660]

? Offering the choice of an alternative OS would and will not satisfy the EU regulation’s requirements with regard to „proper“ iOS and the App Store

Quite a narrow description.

This is starting to sound as wanting free-rides or getting the juicy (for them) cashflow via fines if not implemented. As the reasoning behind it is the supposed gate keeping of “you can only get iOS here and nothing else so it has to be amended” and “I want to participate on this AppStore but without paying the fees”, so on and so forth.

From what is mentioned: if Apple were to make iOS work for Android, it would still have the exact same issues and fines in that platform. If Android were to work on iOS? same problems as even having a secondary option on the same device wouldn’t satisfy it.

I read this as: Apple (or any big company really) were to make a random OS on a random fridge, as long as there’s some threshold of a market share met (i.e money), they will want their piece after the work is done.

This is not going to happen. Neither are customers interested in that, of which most value Apple’s ontegration of hard- and software, nor is it in Apple’s interest ($$$) to give up their role for the majority (or even just a large part) of their customers.

Don’t get me wrong I’m zero interested in that, most people I know aren’t either. I never installed that PS3 example OtherOS either as it was a bit convoluted.
If I wanted that I would probably just go Android, as a first step anyways, I see people switching back and forth all the time, doesn’t look too hard. Just annoying.

I do like it as it is and would rather let a company do whatever is set out to do in the way they see fit and for customers vote with their wallets. However since in some countries over time (read: when convenient) this is made illegal, then I guess they will have to correct course to comply.

My suggestion is to point out the blatant hypocrisy, as the excuse of most people pro-government-forced-arm-bending is:

My phone, my choices, my rules, I should be able to do whatever I want with my phone. Apple (or random company like Nintendo, Sony, etc I guess) is in the wrong for not letting me sideload whatever I want

In any case, the EU can totally run their experiment, let them have at it… if there’s anything positive from there the rest could inherit some of that, if it goes bonkers, thanks for trying I guess.

From where I’m sitting, if I were a tech company in the EU I wouldn’t even have the motivation to try to set out to do what Google, Apple, Sony, Nintendo, Hyundai, etc set out to do… and for example, the next Nintendo switch if it were to have an NFC for some reason, the EU version could even end up not having it as they could just weight the pros and cons of what they could get hit with.