EU to Accuse Apple of Unfairly Blocking Third-Party Access to NFC Payment Technology on iPhone

[vipergts2207]

Except for the parts that you didn't.


So is music, but you're shifting the goalposts now. Vertical markets don't have to be "completely unrelated" to be vertical markets.

Apple doesn’t keep their music competitors from accessing the hardware, preventing them from implementing features that help them compete more effectively with Apple. There’s nothing anti-competitive there, at least on that count. Being able to extract 30% from Spotify is a different issue.

They didn't "get away with it". It was and is perfectly legal. Now that they're big, some people would like to regulate them.

Some things that are legal now were illegal, and vice-versa. I say get away with it in the sense that what they’re doing may currently be legal, but will likely not be for much longer.

Which market are you talking about? Because you seem to be talking about the smartphone market which has much more than two players.

Smartphones and the related software and services. More specifically, we have just two mobile OS’s, where because of all the associated software and services that run through them, the platform owners are able to extract enormous amounts of money in the form of fees and commissions from third-parties.

 

[dk001]

Sandbox isn't 100%. I have had some security breaches in some sandboxes before. Otherwise, why does iOS currently have ANY malware if it should stop it 100%?

So it fails today and sandboxing 3rd party would also fail so it is a decrease in security.
What?

 

[Ethosik]

So it fails today and sandboxing 3rd party would also fail so it is a decrease in security.
What?

It is. Because Apple can pull it from the App Store if its a big security risk. Apple can't pull it from my own website if side loading were to be allowed.

An open system is by the very definition of "open" less secure than a closed system. While a closed system can have flaws, that doesn't mean an open system would be as secure or even more secure.

 

[I7guy]

As for the intellectual property, this most likely isn‘t much Apple‘s own. They didn’t come up with NFC ir contactless payments.

The nfc chip is not yours or mine or Amex’s. Apple licensed the chip(like so many others) and deployed the chip in their platform.

Gatekeeper obviously is a catchy term someone at the EU commission came up with and/or decided to stick with.

The idea is: the „intermediation“ between hundreds or thousands of businesses (e.g. payment service providers) and dozens of millions of consumers (iPhone users) and the access business customers have to those millions of consumers shouldn’t be controlled by what is virtually a duopoly in mobile OS and application stores (Apple & Google) to charge for as they please and give preferential treatment to their own services.

The EU competition beyond that duopoly in the marketplace.
And that’s what their imminent regulation is about.

And yes, mandating interoperability and access to these platforms, basically „forcibly opening them up“ is a (likely necessary) measure to enable even a modicum of competition.

I disagree. Government should stay the heck out of where it has been.

 

[I7guy]

[..{

I‘m not sure what the desired effect or result is? Because…

[…]

The eu will become a technological desert?

 

[dk001]

It is. Because Apple can pull it from the App Store if its a big security risk. Apple can't pull it from my own website if side loading were to be allowed.

An open system is by the very definition of "open" less secure than a closed system. While a closed system can have flaws, that doesn't mean an open system would be as secure or even more secure.

So it comes down to the fact that Apple cannot control the offering of all apps that an iPhone could use?

 

[BaldiMac]

Apple doesn’t keep their music competitors from accessing the hardware, preventing them from implementing features that help them compete more effectively with Apple. There’s nothing anti-competitive there, at least on that count. Being able to extract 30% from Spotify is a different issue.

Well, you've completely rewritten Apple history now. Couldn't load your Zune purchases of an iPod.

And again, Apple is under no obligation to help their competitors "compete more effectively with Apple"!

Some things that are legal now were illegal, and vice-versa. I say get away with it in the sense that what they’re doing may currently be legal, but will likely not be for much longer.

So in the sense that in has been legal, and may soon be regulated. As I've said, that is completely reasonable even as I disagree with some of the choices for how to regulate.

Smartphones and the related software and services.

Far more than two competitors in those markets!

More specifically, we have just two mobile OS’s, where because of all the associated software and services that run through them, the platform owners are able to extract enormous amounts of money in the form of fees and commissions from third-parties.

Nope. There is more than two mobile OS's competitors. Samsung and each of their competitors release their own versions of the open source android OS for their devices.

 

[duffman9000]

The eu will become a technological desert?

I thought they were already lol.

 

[vipergts2207]

Well, you've completely rewritten Apple history now. Couldn't load your Zune purchases of an iPod.

Huh?

transfering my zune library to ipod touch - Apple Community

discussions.apple.com

And again, Apple is under no obligation to help their competitors "compete more effectively with Apple"!

There’s a difference between helping and not actively inhibiting.

Far more than two competitors in those markets!

It’s actually a collection of related and connected markets. That doesn’t make everyone in the various segments competitors of everyone else. Or is Apple competing with Chipotle just because they both have iOS apps? As far as mobile OS’s go, there are only two.

Nope. There is more than two mobile OS's competitors. Samsung and each of their competitors release their own versions of the open source android OS for their devices.

You literally said it yourself. It’s still Android OS. Having a custom UI doesn’t change the fact that they all still run Android and Android applications.

 

[Ethosik]

So it comes down to the fact that Apple cannot control the offering of all apps that an iPhone could use?

That is precisely why I use iPhones and why I perform all my critical stuff (banking, finances, health, ...) on my iPhone and not my computers. Been hacked before on a computer, never again.

 

[dk001]

That is precisely why I use iPhones and why I perform all my critical stuff (banking, finances, health, ...) on my iPhone and not my computers. Been hacked before on a computer, never again.

I can see your point.
btw - the iPhone is not any better than a lot of other devices. I comes down in the end to the user.

 

[Ethosik]

I can see your point.
btw - the iPhone is not any better than a lot of other devices. I comes down in the end to the user.

Its the best we got at the moment. Any open system is by the very definition of "open" less secure than a closed system. Is the iPhone perfect? No nothing is. But its better than an open system.

 

[Lenny Pelullo Slade]

I thought they were already lol.

This type of comment is exhausting to read over and over. It’s also pretty ignorant.

Does Europe have a tech company the size of Apple, Alphabet or Amazon? No. But is that really an appropriate measure of significance? If you’re not as big as Facebook, you don’t matter and you’re not contributing to anything. ??‍♂️

There are more than 70 tech startups in Europe valued at over a billion dollars. (https://sifted.eu/rankings/european-startups-top-rankings)

There are many existing and startup tech companies, both known and unknown in the US, that are doing big things (Wise, Revolut, Glovo, ::ahem:: Spotify, SAP, etc.). That they’re not Apple doesn’t mean that they’re part of a tech desert.

 

[duffman9000]

This type of comment is exhausting to read over and over. It’s also pretty ignorant.

Does Europe have a tech company the size of Apple, Alphabet or Amazon? No. But is that really an appropriate measure of significance? If you’re not as big as Facebook, you don’t matter and you’re not contributing to anything. ??‍♂️

There are more than 70 tech startups in Europe valued at over a billion dollars. (https://sifted.eu/rankings/european-startups-top-rankings)

There are many existing and startup tech companies, both known and unknown in the US, that are doing big things (Wise, Revolut, Glovo, ::ahem:: Spotify, SAP, etc.). That they’re not Apple doesn’t mean that they’re part of a tech desert.

The way the EU complains about Apple and Google sounds like they are bitter and can’t compete. Not my fault.

 

[da9l]

I find it funny how people think that giving you the option to use sideloading would make the iPhone less secure..

Its literally in the in the sentence.. Just don't use sideloading if you think its less secure. Having the option in it self doesn't make the device any less secure.

 

[boyarka]

Let me go out on a limb here... if there was a PC which FORCED the users to use one specific browser (and by that I mean a rendering engine, ie Webkit) there would be an uproar. If there was Mac that would just lock out any software which didn't come from AppStore, say the new Studio Mac didn't allow for non-Apple video editing software... people would dump it. If there was an EV that allowed to be charged with a non-standard plug and from a very specific mfg specified charging stations and those alone - there would (almost) be chaos and riots in the streets, so to speak.
If Microsoft starting tomorrow would FORCE everyone to stick to Office tools alone, banning Open Office, Gimp and third-party Solitaire... people would pick up pitchforks and go after Gates.

These remote and absurd examples aside, here's a reminder: Apple is the gatekeeper of ALL applications that can be used on any iOS, WatchOS or TVOS platforms. iPhone does NOT allow a third-party NFC-payment. And that's just a handful of locked features that customers are forced to, while fanboys and those who completely misunderstand free market will smugly brush off with some retarded "use another platform" comment.

Oh, but that's right, "what right does EU have to tell a private company how to do business". Next argument will be "what right does govt have to tell a company what taxes to pay and what employment laws to follow".

 

[da9l]

... if there was a PC which FORCED the users to use one specific browser (and by that I mean a rendering engine, ie Webkit) there would be an uproar. ...

Remember the time where Microsoft was forced to have the user presented with a choice of what browser they wanted to use opon first starting up Internet Explorer ? That did in fact happen.. And people werent even forced to use Internet Explorer, it was just the bundled default in Windows, while they were still free to download and use whatever they wanted.

I've found it quite confusing that Microsoft was forced to implement this choice thing, even though the users were already free to install whatever they wanted, yet Apple seems to have been able to get away with all their restrictions for decades

 

[user002]

"Apple claims that its restrictions on NFC are in place as a safeguard for user privacy and security."

LOL.

 

[AppliedMicro]

The eu will become a technological desert?

I profoundly fail to understand how that would even remotely be in Apple‘s best interest?

 

[AppliedMicro]

There is more than two mobile OS's competitors. Samsung and each of their competitors release their own versions of the open source android OS for their devices.

What application download store comes pre-installed on Galaxy phones?
Also, can third-party apps use their NFC hardware (for payment purposes)?

Oh, but that's right, "what right does EU have to tell a private company how to do business". Next argument will be "what right does govt have to tell a company what taxes to pay and what employment laws to follow".

I honestly think that (many of) those people would rather live under an Apple government - than under their actual political/state government.

At least they believe that Apple is better at governing privacy, consumer protection and competition among apps on their platforms and for their users/subscribers than their actual governments.

(side note: they’re probably not entirely wrong about that)

 

[McDaveH]

The EU isn't forcing Apple to bring iOS or any of its software to Android which would be the equivalent of your analogy. It's just saying to open up the hardware inside the item you bought so that it opens up competition, Apply must be raking it in with Apple Pay because no one has a choice. The equivalent would be, anyone can make games for an iPhone but only Apple gets access to the GPU

They may indeed have access to part of the GPU which can't be accessed by 3rd-parties but why would that be an issue?
Do you think the EU should force restaurant owners to move their chefs aside and allow other chefs to prepare and sell food in the restaurants leveraging and impacting the restaurant's customer experience too? Or maybe all restaurants should be ordered to cook all types of food just so the customers can have choice?

 

[McDaveH]

Pretty staggering so many Americans think that a choice between just two operating system vendors is a healthy market situation and is impossible to abuse (ignoring the many examples of yore where duopolies became collusion buddies to cement their hegemony).

You’d think that would be taught in business 101, no?

At least those two provide two different product models, one integral and one interoperable. If the EU had their way there would be one product model with many superficial brands slapped on them. Surely nobody would be fooled by hegemony veiled by choice would they?

 

[AppliedMicro]

Do you think the EU should force restaurant owners to move their chefs aside and allow other chefs to prepare and sell food in the restaurants leveraging and impacting the restaurant's customer experience too? Or maybe all restaurants should be ordered to cook all types of food just so the customers can have choice?

If the market for restaurants and their products/services was as highly concentrated (as the one for smartphone OS and app download stores) that the same two or three choices of meals were sold in every restaurant every single day, then yes, the EU should definitely take regulatory action.

Especially if all that European consumers could get in their restaurants was (that chemically processed, artificially flavoured crap) from America.

The EU should definitely ensure customer choice, availability of diverse food ingredients, promote competition among European food suppliers and preserve that important European culinary heritage.

 

[amartinez1660]

Pretty staggering so many Americans think that a choice between just two operating system vendors is a healthy market situation and is impossible to abuse (ignoring the many examples of yore where duopolies became collusion buddies to cement their hegemony).

You’d think that would be taught in business 101, no?

I kinda find it triple staggering to want to force everything to a single thing or choice: one connector (and no other proprietary endeavors allowed even if that could be better, and good luck if any custom one works because then it will be forced to be opened), one single style of OS, one single style of messaging, one and only one of everything… indignation about “two” choices? (realistically there are and there has been more, but three-ish big ones at least)? Talk about one.

I’m not really against homogenizing, open solutions and all that… when the goal and design of them are made as such and not forced halfways.

I like Blender, I like the idea, the endeavor, the people involved in it and the strides it has made all these years… but I would truly dislike them to be forced to be closed because “fines and reasons”.

And just as I would dislike that, I also dislike a proprietary closed endeavor to be forced to be opened and swayed… that’s why I like a lot the idea (even if some truly dislike it for some reason that really swooshes me), of the open software initiatives on these phones.

Sure “DMA rules this and that”, “I dislike what you are proposing and saying”, etc all you want… I would seriously defend this, I already pay monthly to the Blender foundation, I would totally pay also for a Linux-style foundation to do openOS’s for Apple and Samsung/HTC/etc devices.

Let open endeavors be open, let proprietary ones be proprietary and let people vote with their wallets. It’s such a simple concept in my head, I must be totally missing something.

 

[amartinez1660]

The EU should definitely ensure customer choice, availability of diverse food ingredients, promote competition among European food suppliers and preserve that important European culinary heritage.

That’s definitely not what they seem to be doing from where I’m sitting (which is, very far away).
They seem to be forcing Apple meat plates to be more and more like Android meat plates. And I’m pretty sure soon enough, Microsoft’s plates will get thrown in the mix, and then others.

But I definitely know nothing from where I’m sitting, I’ll just watch this experiment unfold and see the outcome progress over time.