EU to Accuse Apple of Unfairly Blocking Third-Party Access to NFC Payment Technology on iPhone

[RadioHedgeFund]

Found this out when I did a deep dive into a former Apple proposal:
Android you can improve security; iOS you are stuck with what Apple grants you.
End of the day, they are pretty well evenly matched if you take your time and set them up right.

All arguments aside iOS has the advantage of a locked file system whereas Google broke Android down into constituent parts (ie apps) so that even people with really old devices (like 9 years) can still have secure apps without needing a whole new OS install.

 

[BaldiMac]

No I literally don’t. The app does have special access, not the card.

Exactly!

You don’t have to see it as abuse, but governments don’t wouldn’t regulate such things if they weren’t abusive.

That's obviously not true. Lots of things are regulated that aren't abusive.

If you want to talk about history, vertical integration for Apple historically meant designing their own hardware and running their own software. That’s fine to most people. Apple is now integrating app distribution, credit cards, and apparently soon cars.

Your description of Apple's history seems purposefully lacking.

 

[RadioHedgeFund]

Ok, great, so then I decide I want to give just myself a cool feature on my phone and that feature happens to need NFC, so I put NFC on my phone and only make it usable for me. So now what is the problem? There is still no law that says I have to provide an NFC phone for my users right? And there's still no law that says I have to make a phone that has

Think of it like this: this is no law in place that says an ICE car needs a petrol tank. Of course nobody would buy such a car if it existed. But if you put in that petrol tank, it needs to work with all brands of fuel rather than some proprietary one.

Your hypothetical phone doesn’t have to have NFC and indeed some phones still don’t. But it is clearly unfair that if there is an NFC chip in your phone it only works with one payment provider. You should be able to buy an iPhone and not be locked into any Apple-led system. There are 3rd party replacements for nearly every 1st party app on the iPhone. You can use GCal, Outlook, FantastiCal or any other calendar app if you so wish and Apple’s own app has no distinct advantages over those others bar maybe Siri integration.

I see nobody bemoaning the fact that 3rd party replacements are available for core system functionality (Could you imagine somebody complaining that there are 3rd party camera apps available?!)

Payments should be no different. It’s not like Venmo or PayPal are some dodgy apps. People trust these brands.

 

[duffman9000]

Done! Web apps are available on iOS. Are we good now?

Next, I'll assume that you were only talking about native apps. Apple responds by saying that they will allow alt app stores, but all apps still need to be approved by Apple, and they will cut their commission on apps sold through alt app stores by 5%. Are we good now?

Next, shall we assume you don't want Apple to review those apps? Apple responds by saying that the will allow alt app stores without reviewing apps, but apps will have limited API access for security reasons. They charge a platform fee of 20%. Are we good now?

Etc.

At what point is Apple no longer a gatekeeper?

I don’t think that’s good enough for them. They want to basically treat iOS like Windows and MacOS. They want to install whatever they want from whomever and want to cut out Apple entirely.

 

[Beautyspin]

That ios 5 is even on the list is a testament to how bogus the above is.

So, the Forbes report quoted below that is also bogus?

Yep, imo. Being Forbes doesn't necessarily guarantee a fair, well-balanced article. Journalism is not a science, it's an art. Ask Dan Rather.

When two independent sources say the same, then there should be some truth to it.

 

[vipergts2207]

Exactly!

Yes exactly. ?

All you’ve done is pretend the issue is about the card itself and not how Apple restricts the other cards’ apps but not their own.

That's obviously not true. Lots of things are regulated that aren't abusive.

Broadly sure. With respect to the subject of unfair blocking of access? No.

Your description of Apple's history seems purposefully lacking.

Feel free to expand on it yourself.

 

[Macative]

lol - I mean megalolz. You really think EU consumers will be marching on Brussels over an iPhone? You’re funny.

If it could no longer be sold in their country? Yes. That won't ever happen, so we won't ever find out. But this is the kind of thing that would actually wake people up.

 

[Ethosik]

I didn’t say a random Joe Somebody app who then surreptitiously uploads adult content. I’m taking about the mainstream players everyone uses. Netflix, HBO, Hulu, Disney, etc. would it be anti-competitive if Apple made them submit every one of their titles for approval or otherwise disallowed their app?

Your first sentence said this: So if Apple didn’t allow Netflix that would be anti-competitive. I was adding on that. Perhaps people here need to stop quoting full paragraphs since it just leads to confusion.

 

[Ethosik]

You can say that actually. Though I’ll then just respond that it’s unfortunate for you that things are moving in the direction of folks who have a firm pro-competition viewpoint.

We have said it. People keep shouting the sunshine and rainbows line that "nothing will impact your usage if you just keep side loading disabled". This is purely false.

 

[BaldiMac]

You should be able to buy an iPhone and not be locked into any Apple-led system.

I specifically bought an iPhone because it's an Apple-led system.

Yes exactly. ?

All you’ve done is pretend the issue is about the card itself and not how Apple restricts the other cards’ apps but not their own.

Nope. I'm focusing on the issue of whether the Apple Card is taking advantage of NFC features unavailable to other cards Which is where we started. You keep deflecting to the Wallet app. We're talking in circles here, so I'm done with this part of the conversation.

Feel free to expand on it yourself.

Apple has competed in integrated vertical markets throughout its history. Music, servers, iPods, accessories, licensing, software, iPhones, iPads, speakers, headphones, etc. Practically every product they've released has some degree of integration.

 

[Ethosik]

How about this?

Android Phones Might Be More Secure Than iPhones Now

What the market for zero-day exploits tells us about our phones

onezero.medium.com

Credit to @RadioHedgeFund

Or this: https://www.bleepstatic.com/content/hl-images/2022/02/25/android-smartphone.jpg?rand=172852887

Yep. I have said this time and time and time again. Windows is WAY MORE secure than macOS. Android is WAY MORE secure than iOS. Why? They have been targeted far far FAR more. So if iOS "opens up" I expect a major influx of security issues for some time.

Essentially, Windows and Android have been battle hardened. iOS developers as a whole don't want to risk it since the app needs approval from Apple. There are exceptions to everything (iOS does have malware sometimes), but in general I think most people don't want to try it.

 

[Ethosik]

The problem is not security (you can sandbox apps well, especially with ARMv9), the problem is Apple Pay is flawless (much like Google Pay).

On my old Android the bank NFC system was a nightmare to behold.

Sandbox isn't 100%. I have had some security breaches in some sandboxes before. Otherwise, why does iOS currently have ANY malware if it should stop it 100%?

 

[vipergts2207]

Your first sentence said this: So if Apple didn’t allow Netflix that would be anti-competitive. I was adding on that. Perhaps people here need to stop quoting full paragraphs since it just leads to confusion.

So do you want to address the question or did you realize that you can’t justify your position and so choose to ignore it?

 

[vipergts2207]

We have said it. People keep shouting the sunshine and rainbows line that "nothing will impact your usage if you just keep side loading disabled". This is purely false.

In an absolute sense, sure. In the sense that 98% if things will remain the same, no.

 

[Ethosik]

So do you want to address the question or did you realize that you can’t justify your position and so choose to ignore it?

I did address the question in my post already. A 2 hour movie that requires 0 user interaction unless you want to pause is VERY different than a game that takes input at 60 times a second on average, some have text boxes and have chats going on.

 

[Ethosik]

In an absolute sense, sure. In the sense that 98% if things will remain the same, no.

That is all I am saying. People need to stop saying "nothing will change" because it WILL. And that 2% will be the biggest apps around so it will have the biggest impact.

 

[BaldiMac]

So do you want to address the question or did you realize that you can’t justify your position and so choose to ignore it?

The problem is you just designed a scenario that isn't needed, so you could claim that it's ridiculous. Apple does actually have limits on video content in an app like Netflix. They just don't need to review every video to enforce it. If Netflix started releasing hardcore porn videos, Apple would drop the Netflix app. Just like they've done with Parlour and other apps.

 

[RadioHedgeFund]

I don’t think that’s good enough for them. They want to basically treat iOS like Windows and MacOS. They want to install whatever they want from whomever and want to cut out Apple entirely.

And yet the same people complaining about the EU wanting to open up iOS so it is just like Android/MacOS/Linux/Windows use those exact devices every single week to do banking, order takeaways, do work, edit photographs and a thousand other things.

Which makes them hypocrites.

 

[Ethosik]

And yet the same people complaining about the EU wanting to open up iOS so it is just like Android/MacOS/Linux/Windows use those exact devices every single week to do banking, order takeaways, do work, edit photographs and a thousand other things.

Which makes them hypocrites.

Not me. I specifically do all my banking and health records and all the sensitive stuff purely on my iPhone since it is locked down. I have been infected before (serious hack happened in the pre-Windows XP SP2 days where it was a mess). Since then I have had a dedicated computer for this stuff until iPhones came out. I do NOTHING personal on my systems. Only thing personal you will find out is I like to play games and use Visual Studio and watch YouTube. But no banking or those details are ever done on either Windows or Mac.

 

[I7guy]

What does Apple stopping the gatekeeping consist of? Do they have to allow any app for any reason and provide any access that anyone demand? That seems horrible to me.

The problem with this anti-gatekeeping push to me is that it seeks to end the thing that makes Apple unique and useful to me. They build the whole stack. That's what makes Apple products so good. It sucks that people want to eliminate that choice.

Gatekeeper is a “fake” term that creative minds came up with along with some parameters to enact new legislation to force certain companies into public use of their intellectual property against these companies wants and desires. (Imo)

New legislation is needed because said company was operating legally.

 

[AppliedMicro]

Uh, competitors do install applications on the NFC chip on a Visa card. Ever heard of a dual-network card?

Side note: Card issuers being able to issue dual-network cards has been mandated by EU regulation. Payment schemes (Mastercard, VISA) are prevented from

Which is, imo, where successful companies who have legal operations have to watch out in the EU, and maybe hold back on technology.

I‘m not sure what the desired effect or result is? Because…

and for example, the next Nintendo switch if it were to have an NFC for some reason, the EU version could even end up not having it as they could just weight the pros and cons of what they could get hit with.

…Apple is currently making money from Apple Pay in the EU. Why should they hold back that tech and not make money from it - just because they don’t want competitors not to make money either?

Again, there is no Apple Card app. There is a Wallet app that all cards have the same NFC access within.

Yep But only Apple-approved cards/issuers have access to the Wallet app.
And other apps don’t have access to the NFC chip (for payment services) - so Apple can charge their commission.

 

[vipergts2207]

Nope. I'm focusing on the issue of whether the Apple Card is taking advantage of NFC features unavailable to other cards Which is where we started. You keep deflecting to the Wallet app. We're talking in circles here, so I'm done with this part of the conversation.

You’re choosing to focus on the wrong issue because you have no argument against the real issue. The card itself is nothing more than a piece of plastic/metal or a digital account number. All the potential cool and differentiating features come from the app side of things. Apple doesn’t allow banking developers to implement innovative NFC-based features in their own apps. Apple allows their banking app to function as an NFC wallet. They don’t allow their banking competitors to do that with their apps.

Apple has competed in integrated vertical markets throughout its history. Music, servers, iPods, accessories, licensing, software, iPhones, iPads, speakers, headphones, etc. Practically every product they've released has some degree of integration.

So literally what I said. Computing hardware and software. Accessories for the hardware doesn’t change the equation here. Last I checked credit cards and accounts are a completely unrelated market. And historically, Apple didn’t make themselves the only distributor for software either. That’s a phenomenon that only started with the iPhone. Apple got away with it in the beginning because they were able to set their terms in what was a fledgling and relatively inconsequential market that had lots of competition. Now that we’re talking about a market with only two players and hundreds of billions in commerce, their practices are rightfully being scrutinized.

 

[AppliedMicro]

Gatekeeper is a “fake” term that creative minds came up with along with some parameters to enact new legislation to force certain companies into public use of their intellectual property against these companies wants and desires.

As for the intellectual property, this most likely isn‘t much Apple‘s own. They didn’t come up with NFC ir contactless payments.

Gatekeeper obviously is a catchy term someone at the EU commission came up with and/or decided to stick with.

The idea is: the „intermediation“ between hundreds or thousands of businesses (e.g. payment service providers) and dozens of millions of consumers (iPhone users) and the access business customers have to those millions of consumers shouldn’t be controlled by what is virtually a duopoly in mobile OS and application stores (Apple & Google) to charge for as they please and give preferential treatment to their own services.

The EU competition beyond that duopoly in the marketplace.
And that’s what their imminent regulation is about.

And yes, mandating interoperability and access to these platforms, basically „forcibly opening them up“ is a (likely necessary) measure to enable even a modicum of competition.

 

[BaldiMac]

So literally what I said.

Except for the parts that you didn't.

Computing hardware and software. Accessories for the hardware doesn’t change the equation here either. Last I checked credit cards and accounts are a completely unrelated market.

So is music, but you're shifting the goalposts now. Vertical markets don't have to be "completely unrelated" to be vertical markets.

And historically, Apple didn’t make themselves the only distributor for software either. That’s a phenomenon that only started with the iPhone. Apple got away with it in the beginning because they were able to set their terms in what was a fledgling and relatively inconsequential market that had lots of competition.

They didn't "get away with it". It was and is perfectly legal. Now that they're big, some people would like to regulate them.

Now that we’re talking about a market with only two players and hundreds of billions in commerce, their practices are rightfully being scrutinized.

Which market are you talking about? Because you seem to be talking about the smartphone market which has much more than two players.

 

[duffman9000]

And yet the same people complaining about the EU wanting to open up iOS so it is just like Android/MacOS/Linux/Windows use those exact devices every single week to do banking, order takeaways, do work, edit photographs and a thousand other things.

Which makes them hypocrites.

True. And they all cry about not having choices.