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Spotifiy's argument is that Apple is only applying the restrictive payment terms to digital goods because that is also the market in which Apple competes. Apple doesn't compete with Uber, Airbnb, etc. in the services and physical goods market so they allow sellers in those markets to have much greater flexibility in determining in-app payment methods. Apple is going to need to provide a reasonable non-discriminatory reason for doing so; otherwise there is a basis to demand "all or none" treatment.

At least in the EU, ensuring companies don't harm competition at the user level is a high priority. Look at Microsoft back in the 1990's for a prime example. They were forced to include other companies' browsers as an option during Windows setup and incurred multiple heavy fines as a result of their actions both before and after the EU's decision despite Internet Explorer being completely free. Or look at Google's recent $5 Billion fine related to Android and its restrictions on search, which just happens to be Google's main market.

The logic of letting a company do what it wants is wiped away when it is doing so to stifle competition, and the conditions set by the EU could easily be a requirement that all sellers be treated equally in the app store.
Apple doesn’t apply “restrictive payment terms” because they compete in the digital goods market, but rather because that is the category that’s subject to revenue share. They don’t want vendors being able to trivially bypass the revenue share requirement, as that would result in Apple being cheated out of their rightful share.

If there were a button that took a customer to Spotify for processing/fulfillment, how would Apple know the amount of the sale and therefore how much revenue Spotify should remit? There would be zero visibility for Apple into the true amount of vendor sales attributable to in-app purchases. Apple doesn’t charge extra for payment processing, so why would Spotify want to add that extra cost, in addition to the 15/30% they would owe for the revenue share?

Similarly, Apple doesn’t have the same restrictions on physical goods and service categories not because they don’t have offerings in those categories—they in fact do—but because they have no need to see that purchase data. They literally do not care if you buy a $4 Big Mac or a $70,000 car through an in-app purchase. Apple charges no fee on that transaction, so vendors can do whatever they want wrt payments and Apple couldn’t care less.

There is no EU requirement for Apple to charge sellers of every category of good/service the same fee. Adding 15/30% fees on tangible (physical) goods and/or services doesn’t make the App Store more competitive for those selling digital goods. That remedy would not result in a more level playing field for digital goods sellers. But it would obviously increase costs greatly to consumers who use apps to buy physical products and/or services.
 
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Wrong, you cannot subscribe via the webpage from the app, Apple banned that. You have to physically go to the Spotify website to subscribe yourself. Apple has banned apps from even mentioning it as an option in there apps.
But of course unless your Uber then the complete opposite is in effect and you pay through their app and not Apple....


Not quite the case....I re-installed Spotify recently and had an ad pop up in the app telling me to go to their webpage to upgrade to premium.

IMG_1553.PNG IMG_1554.PNG


Click "Learn More" and it opens safari directly at the Spotify website. Here you can purchase your subscription without Apple getting a cut.

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Oh indeed I recall what you are saying.
What's irking people a bit I feel is that if Microsoft did 1/10th of what Apple are doing they get ripped to shreads

Hell Apple does not even allow you to change the default web browser yet do they on iOS devices?

Why not do what they did with Msoft.
When you start an iPhone, iPad, iMac etc up for the 1st time, you legally need to have a screen showing you wish web browser to pick.
That's what Msoft had to do, so why not same rule for Apple?

I don't mind what rules are in place as long as they apply to all.

Apple are getting away with a hell of a lot right now, simply becasue the USA are protecting them as it's their love-child company.

The issue was MS setting their browser as default on hardware that they didn't own or make (IBM/ HP/ Lenovo etc). This is not the same as Apple who manufacture their own hardware with their own software installed.
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I'm sure you know perfectly well that Uber isn't using Apple to process payments, but rather uses in-app links to their own payment processing system. That is exactly what Spotify wants to be able to do too.

From the linked article: "...if Spotify chooses not to use Apple’s payment system, to avoid paying the commission, the company applies “a series of technical and experience-limiting restrictions” on consumers running its streaming service on the rival tech company’s devices." and "Spotify argues that its complaint to regulators is not about seeking “special treatment” in its global music battle against Apple but the same treatment as numerous other apps such as Uber and Deliveroo, which are not subject to the 30% app store charge."

Nobody is asking to use Apple's payment system for free, only to have the same opportunity to use their own payment systems under the same conditions as other sellers like Uber.


See above.
 
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You still haven’t explained why Apple deserves a share of revenue for digital goods.

Isn't it really irrelevant? Nowhere do you have to deserve income in a capitalistic economy.

Do Spotify deserve its 30-40% cut?

So what is Apple's justification? They provide access to a lot of people who are willing to pay money for digital goods.
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Well how does one define a digital good? Only something that is consumed on a computer? To me that’s an arbitrary distinction that Apple has made.

Apple can define digital goods for its store. Other store owners can define it for their store. Or not define it at all.

It is not arbitrary as in random or without reason.

Apple has chosen a definition which is easily enforceable and makes them a lot of money. That's very reasonable and not arbitrary.
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If there is no discernible difference between in-app and website payments then why are you so insistent that Apple keep that distinction only for digital sales? Would you be fine applying the same terms to Uber and force them to use external website payments or pay Apple 30% of their revenue?

I have no problems with Apple applying its cut to physical stuff either. It would then be up to end users and developers if this was acceptable.
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You also still provide no meaningful distinction between tangible and intangible goods other than just saying "there is".

I believe that the most meaningful distinction between tangible goods and intangible goods is IN.
 
They have that ability today... On their website. They even direct you there to do it. Nobody is stopping them. And that’s not what they want.

Apple offers a full subscription management solution in your settings. This is what they want. For free.

Google charges an identical rate for the Play Store. They also offer a competitor as well (2 actually, for the time being). They also command a much larger market share. Notice how they aren’t being targeted?

Spotify is trying to generate press for itself. And they want these services for free... all because they can’t support their free tier.
Well maybe you would realize why Google isn't targeted if you would try Spotify on an Android device and see the payment options.
 
Apple taking 30% cut for digital goods (which in most cases is passed on to the consumer) is not something customers like either.

Most customers don't know and it certainly doesn't change their behaviour.
Most of the time it is the developer who eats the costs.


But again this is only applying to what Apple considers digital goods. Uber makes a ton of money but for whatever reason Apple has decided ride sharing services aren’t digital goods. Eddy Cue once said Uber wouldn’t exist without the App Store. I guarantee you if Apple thought it could get away with taking 30% of Uber and Lyft transactions it would.

Yes, they would.


And herein lies the rub. Apple won’t allow it because they’d lose a ton of money. Because this system was put into place when the App Store was small and the number of users wasn’t anything like it is today. But you can’t compare to a physical store. A physical store is stocking the merchandise. If I buy an e-book from Amazon or listen to a song on Spotify Apple isn’t hosting that content. The only thing Apple is hosting is the app.

It is one of the main purposes of the App Store to make Apple a lot of money.

If Apple can avoid many of the costs associated with physical stores and increase their profit, good for them. No company should be forced to lower their prices just because their costs go down. They should be allowed to increase profit.

Except on iOS there is no way to get an app outside of the App Store.

There are at least three methods which I am aware of. But the point still stands, the rules only apply to the App Store, not the app on the device.

The question becomes how does one define a digital good? Is it only something consumed on a computer/tablet/phone? To me with Uber you’re not buying a physical good. You’re not buying a car, you’re buying a service you use for someone to get you from point A to point B. And like I said above if Apple could get away with charging 30% on every Uber transaction I guarantee you they would.

Apple defines digital goods for their store. Others might use another definition.

Uber sells a physical transportation service and Apple have decided not to get a revenue sharing on these kinds of services.
 
It makes a difference to Apple because that distinction is also where they directly compete with other sellers. Hence the EU investigation to see if that distinction and the resulting restrictive app store polices is being made for the purposes of hurting competition. You may not be able to provide a reasonable argument as to why intangible items should be singled out for restrictive payment terms and conditions, but Apple is certainly going to be asked that question directly as part of the investigation. Let's hope they have a better answer than "intangible is intangible"

You asked for a distinction, well tangible versus intangible is a very big distinction whether you want to admit so or not.

Apparently there is a link to the web page from the app.
Not quite the case....I re-installed Spotify recently and had an ad pop up in the app telling me to go to their webpage to upgrade to premium.

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Click "Learn More" and it opens safari directly at the Spotify website. Here you can purchase your subscription without Apple getting a cut.

View attachment 835683
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The issue was MS setting their browser as default on hardware that they didn't own or make (IBM/ HP/ Lenovo etc). This is not the same as Apple who manufacture their own hardware with their own software installed.
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See above.
 
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Seems like you have a serious problem not only with comprehension, but also sight (hence the screenshot).

“if you don’t see it you must be blind” does NOT mean you are insulting blind people or making fun of disabilities.
FUN FACT - I was a caregiver for people with disabilities for over 10 years, and if I made a remark like you did, I have been told by many “stop f@cking patronizing me”
so that was fun.

if you get wind up over a quite usual language expression, you are in for some challenges in this life. Would love to waste my time explaining to you, but obviously, doesn’t seem to work for you, at least not in English. Maybe browse a dictionary for the word SARCASM, that may help. Or, even better, see British classic comedy, like Blackadder, Fawlty Towers, Red Dwarf.

And back to the original talk.
There are other apps, which have in app subscription, because the developers don’t mind paying. Spotify does mind paying (that includes paying to the artists, yet they throw free google homes at people, so obviously they have money to waste) and that is where the problem arises. Spotify is not excluded in anything, they just don’t want to pay for things (like in app purchases mechanism)

And as for our conversation, you say “you are wrong” and I say “you are wrong. So basically we are ending this up in an agreement. Cheerio

I won’t say how you come across with your post as no doubt it would get me banned, even using sensible non swearing language. So I’ll just add you to my ignore list as you utterly fail to see what your doing wrong and the contemptuous nature of your posts.
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Not quite the case....I re-installed Spotify recently and had an ad pop up in the app telling me to go to their webpage to upgrade to premium.

View attachment 835681 View attachment 835682


Click "Learn More" and it opens safari directly at the Spotify website. Here you can purchase your subscription without Apple getting a cut.

View attachment 835683
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The issue was MS setting their browser as default on hardware that they didn't own or make (IBM/ HP/ Lenovo etc). This is not the same as Apple who manufacture their own hardware with their own software installed.
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See above.

I agree and thought I said I saw this? What I didn’t have was audio adverts in the stream itself telling me to subscribe to premium every five minutes which is what the other poster came across as claiming.
 
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Warning: Long Post ahead!!

You have no clue what ambush marketing is. Putting a link to your own website from your own app is definitely does not fall into that category. Apple forcing their own payment solution on developers is also a form of ambushing then too, or showing a samsung ad on Safari on iPhone. Simply by your flawed logic, so is basically every app ever created.

For the record, I very much do know what ambush marketing is as that knowledge is an integral part of my "day job" now. Please note that in my original post I did not say that what Spotify is doing is ambush marketing, simply that it felt a lot like it. You mention that placing a link to your own website on your own app isn't ambush marketing, and if it was purely a link to their website then I would agree. But it is a link to a website in order to get the user to sign up to avoid the app owner (Spotify) having to pay Apple's commission charges.

Imagine going in to Walmart and seeing a brand new Sony TV being sold for $1299...only have have a "demo reel" playing on the screen which says "Go to www.sony.com and you will only pay $999 for this exact same TV". Do you not feel that is disingenuous? Having the TV on display in Walmart but trying to get people to buy it elsewhere? How does that not fulfil the criteria I gave for being similar to ambush marketing in that Sony (in this case) is benefitting by using the huge customer base of Walmart to try to get people to actually purchase the item in question from a different store? It is using one brand's prominence to try to gain sales - direct sales - without paying the original store in question anything for doing it?

But, again, to be clear, I am not saying this is ambush marketing, I am just saying that the process that they are saying they should be able to adopt has many of the same traits as ambush marketing.

So you think that Spotify et al should just create a free app but then create a link to sign up on their own website?

No, we think that Apple should allow Spotify to add their own payment solution, like a dozen of apps on my iPhone already have, including transportation apps (taxi, uber, scooters, train) or food services. Some of these support Apple Pay and adding credit card and other mobile payment solution.

I think that many others have pointed out that apps like Uber are not recurrent payments. I could download the Uber app and then use it once in two years. Sure, Apple could insist that all payments are routed through iTunes billing for that too. But it's not a direct comparison. A Spotify subscription is a known quantity, billed on a certain date, with no interaction required from the user beyond the initial agreement.

Now let's consider Uber. Somebody could call an Uber any time of day or night. They could be in a hurry, they could be unwell, that could be totally drunk. Requiring the user to confirm their identity through iTunes billing may be simple (TouchID or FaceID) if they have recently purchase something, or it could require them to re-enter passwords which the may have forgotten, all of which adds up to potential for the user to not actually be able to pay for their ride there and then. In that situation, it is understandable that the simplest, most immediate forms of billing are required to cover all eventualities.

Apple Pay is certainly an option as you mentioned but then Apple would be making money from that transaction too. Is that also immoral and anti-competitive? Just asking...

To be honest, though, I don't think the issue is the payment method used (you mentioned other apps allowing Apple Pay and Credit Cards), I think the issue is the fact that Apple is actually charging commission at all...whether it was billed through iTunes or whether it was paid monthly/quarterly as a commission payment from Spotify to Apple. People seem to be getting their panties in a bunch simply because Apple dares to make money from a competitor selling a similar product on their store!

So essentially just using the App Store as free advertising?
Are you kidding me? App Store is also good for Apple, that's what ultimately makes their phone useful, it is a symbiosis and not Apple doing favours. Ultimately it is neither about Apple or Spotify, but the consumer.

Yes of course the App Store is good for Apple...but let's get real...for every $0.30/$0.15 that Apple makes from the App Store, the Developers make $0.70/$0.85...so it's doing the Developers more "favours" than it is Apple. But, as you say, the main beneficiaries are the consumers...the mighty consumers...

Consumer benefits from competition and Apple is CLEARLY using their advantage as distributor of apps to make their competitors product less viable, and they are being schmuck about it citing bunch of ******** reasons about customer experience, security and so on. There are dozens of apps with more downloads (Facebook, snapchat), that generate NO REVENUE to Apple, yet they are trying to go after a music streaming company.

Two points here. Firstly, competition does not always benefit the consumer. The easiest way to compete is on price and more often than not a "race to the bottom" on price simply means that consumers end up with a bunch of cheap rubbish that has little to no quality control and simply appeals to those looking for a bargain. The other kind of competition, that based on quality and product offering, often goes the other way and actually increases prices. Look at the innovation of Samsung's folding phone for example. They are competing on features, offering something that Apple doesn't, and the price is almost unfathomable. So yes, competition can benefit the consumer, but doesn't always and to say that it does as a blanket fact is disingenuous.

Secondly, Apple is not making Spotify "less viable" unless the general public today is too lazy to click on an email link and sign up to a service that way rather than simply clicking a button in an app. Of course, Apple Music does have the option to do that so yes, in that sense, if Spotify were not allowed to have an in-app purchase option then it could be seen that Apple Music has an advantage - albeit an incredibly small one. However, Spotify does have the option to do that, it simply has to pay for it. So Apple is not making it less viable at all, it is simply saying that if Spotify wants that convenience it has to pay for it.

Plus, why should a company that invents a technology (the App Store in this case) not be allowed to have an advantage over using it itself when compared to a third-party that it is allowing to use that technology? If I invent a technology and I have the ability to produce it at scale and I then license that tech to a competitor who can't (for whatever reason) produce it as cheaply as me, should I be prevented from offering my product at a lower price simply because I have the advantage of being able to produce it more cost-effectively? That argument is a little thin and essentially removes the ability for any company, anywhere to have any kind of competitive advantage. Very few people would bother setting up businesses if they weren't allowed to try to find advantages over their competitors.

Most people have to stop looking at this issue from company first perspective. Apple is providing a service and by their size and popularity they are obligated to provide it in reasonable fashion, not exploiting their prime position.

I disagree, Apple is not providing a service, they are running a business. Something like a hospital could be considered to be providing a service but even though only if it was state funded and run. A private business exists to make money (non-profits excluded of course). In fact, the directors of a business have a legal obligation to run the business in a way that most benefits the shareholders...not the consumers.

So yes, you want people to look at this issue from the perspective of the consumer who is somehow suffering some "hurt" in this, and you are completely entitled to do that. But others among us, perhaps those who run businesses themselves, are equally entitled to view this from a more pragmatic standpoint and consider how they would feel if there business were being subject to the same circumstances. That is what I base my viewpoint on.

I am an Apple consumer (not a Spotify one though it should be said) and I can completely understand the "consumer" viewpoint. However, I like to look a little deeper than what simple provides me with an immediate perceived benefit and consider the bigger picture not only of the company perspective but also of the long term consumer perspective.

But who am I to say, maybe you also like the super competitive and cheap cellular service in the US...

I don't actually live in the US so I have no feelings either way. What I can say with absolute certainty is that you are not the first person to feel that something is too expensive. Neither is the US cellular industry the first to come under fire for being too expensive. My take on it is that you have something you want...it is offered at a certain price...you can either afford it and you get it...or you can't and you don't. If you can't afford it then you can complain about it and say that the whole industry is somehow corrupt and unfair...or you can just get on with life without it.

<rant>For me, I don't relate to the Entitlement Generation and I will certainly never be convinced that having a cellular service is some kind of human right. Perhaps I am in a minority here but I have my reasons, mainly based around the fact that, in spite of all of the promise that the Internet gave at the beginning, I believe that the Internet (and Social Media in particular) has done more harm than good and this "always on" generation has become too reliant on technology. </rantover>

However, I will end by saying that while I understand your viewpoint, and while I will openly say that you put it very elegantly, I disagree with almost every point that you made!
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It makes a difference to Apple because that distinction is also where they directly compete with other sellers. Hence the EU investigation to see if that distinction and the resulting restrictive app store polices is being made for the purposes of hurting competition. You may not be able to provide a reasonable argument as to why intangible items should be singled out for restrictive payment terms and conditions, but Apple is certainly going to be asked that question directly as part of the investigation. Let's hope they have a better answer than "intangible is intangible"

The problem with this is that if the EU forces Apple to lower it's commission rates then it will have to lower them across the board. This will mean that they will be "punished" financially even on apps where they don't directly compete in the space. Unless, of course, they have a two-tier system where some apps attract a 30% commission and some a 10% (or whatever arbitrary number the EU decides is acceptable) commission. Then that would create a whole raft of cases where those being charged 30% would start running to the EU screaming "Unfair!".

A consistent number across all categories and all apps seems to me to be the most equitable solution and, as I and others have said before, Spotify signed up to the Terms of Service. They accepted the conditions for being allowed on to the app and are now complaining about it after the fact.

Here's the thing. It's a contract...and if Spotify no longer agree to the terms then they have an option...back out. Don't develop for iOS any more. Sure, if we assume a distribution of Spotify users that is roughly equal to the smartphone market share, they would lose 20 million subscribers and $140 million dollars a month...but Grey Apple Bad!

Spotify do not have a right to be on iOS. It is a software platform developed by a private company and I believe they have every right to decide what goes on there. I don't agree with many of their decision about the App Store...but it belongs to them.

How are people not understanding this?! If I decide to rent out a room in my home, the tenant doesn't get to decide how much rent I charge! They may not agree in which case they can move out. I would understand if I had put the rent up during their tenancy...but the rent has stayed the same. Spotify are a tenant in Apple's house...so either put up with the terms of move elsewhere. "But if I want to be on iOS I can't move elsewhere!" Yeah well if I happen to own a house that is right near where you work and in the area you want to live because of the facilities, parks, schools, hospitals etc. then you pay what I am asking. If you don't want to then go move somewhere else which might not be as nice an area, but it's cheaper...so make a choice...

Bottom line, Spotify has the option to have 20 million more customers but only earning $7 per month ($8.50 after the first year) from them...or they can decide to lose those 20 million customers.
 
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If a reason Apple decides to charge only sellers of digital goods is to hurt competition in a market in which they also compete then they have no right to do so. The issue is not it being acceptable to charge fees for some products and not others, it is whether doing so harms competition. Apple is going to have to make an argument that their decision to only apply the restrictive payment terms to sellers of digital items is based on a rational, non-discriminatory reason. The fact that some digital sellers don't compete with Apple is not relevant, they are just collateral damage from policies that appear designed to benefit Apple at the expense of their competitors for certain products like music, movies, and eBooks.


Silly rabbit. If your theory was correct, then all Apple would have to do would be to charge Uber and the ride sharing apps to take away your argument, but what would that do for Spotify?? Nothing of course, that's why it doesn't have anything to do with whether or not Apple chooses to only charge a commission to sellers of digital goods.
 
Silly rabbit. If your theory was correct, then all Apple would have to do would be to charge Uber and the ride sharing apps to take away your argument, but what would that do for Spotify?? Nothing of course, that's why it doesn't have anything to do with whether or not Apple chooses to only charge a commission to sellers of digital goods.

I think there is another thing to consider...in the case of Ebay and Uber, both of those companies don't actually provide the end product or service, they are merely the platform used to connect buyer with seller (or passenger with driver in the case of Uber). Now in the case of Amazon, some of the products on Amazon are sold directly by Amazon but there are also a large number of third party suppliers where Amazon simply provides the platform for other users to sell to the Amazon customers (and takes a commission...shocking!). Perhaps that is something to do with it (aside from the digital vs. tangible argument)? I don't know for a fact but it is a clear distinction in business model between Uber/Ebay/Amazon (sometimes) and Spotify...
 
Spotify is definitely sounding greedy here, how dare they be held to the same standard as other app makers.
Apple is the greedy one in this case.
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Are you saying sales made via in-app purchase should be free? Apple deserves nothing? Would that apply to all vendors, or just Spotify?
Depends on the use case.
Apple does not always deserve the large cut it takes for example in things like subscriptions where the company creates its own subscription processing and doesn't use Apples. e.g. Netflix, Spotify...
Apple doesn't get a cut from Netflix or Spotify on Mac why should it get a cut on iOS
 
Apple is the greedy one in this case.
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Depends on the use case.
Apple does not always deserve the large cut it takes for example in things like subscriptions where the company creates its own subscription processing and doesn't use Apples. e.g. Netflix, Spotify...
Apple doesn't get a cut from Netflix or Spotify on Mac why should it get a cut on iOS

As far as I know, Apple doesn't get a cut from Netflix on iOS...simply because Netflix requires users to sign up on the website, thereby avoiding the commission on the in-app purchases...something that Spotify has the option to do but doesn't seem to want to.

It's an additional step, an inconvenience perhaps, for Netflix users to have to bounce out of the iOS app and sign up on the Netflix website...but it doesn't seem to be doing their subscriber numbers any harm. I fail to see why Spotify is making such a big deal about "unfair" commissions when it could avoid them completely by adopting the same model that Netflix does. It isn't like there is no option for iOS Spotify users to pay the same $9.99 that Apple Music charges (thereby providing a level playing field) and for Spotify to retain 100% of that (minus payment processing their end of course). They could still keep the iOS app running and have access to the iOS user base, and the could still retain the same profits.

Plus you use the word "deserve". Who is to decide whether somebody deserves something? Do the CEO's of Fortune 500 corporations "deserve" multi-million dollar salaries? Does the person who is quite capable of work but simply chooses not to because they are lazy "deserve" welfare payments?

The problem with that word is that the evaluation of it will depend entirely on the individual's viewpoint and life experience. To me, a Fortune 500 CEO who has built a company up, grown it, and as a result of that growth has employed hundreds or thousands of new people and improved their quality of life...that is deserving of a high reward. Conversely, the person who sits at home being lazy and living off of welfare when they could get a job but find excuses not to, that person doesn't "deserve" welfare payments.

If you ask the welfare recipient and they will say that they do...as will many others who will simultaneously say that the CEO who has worked hard all his life, amassed skills and experience which allow them to create jobs for other doesn't deserve a high reward...it's all relative.

But I ask you, as I have asked others in this thread and not yet received a single reply, if Apple doesn't "deserve" the large cut then give me a number that you do think is deserved and reasonable...
 
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There are at least three methods which I am aware of. But the point still stands, the rules only apply to the App Store, not the app on the device.
And these are methods that an average consumer would/could use? The average consumer doesn’t use Xcode and would have no clue how to jailbreak their device.
 
Nope, every single country has laws, you have to abide by them, don't like it then go somewhere else.
If that was the case I could set my own tax rate for instance, if you sell something in a country you have to pay taxes, that's how it works with taxes and it so too works with doing business in those countries, same goes for the EU, play by the rules otherwise they will get ya.
Wow, I had no idea.
 
So if your a new user, download the Spotify app, how exactly is Spotify going to ‘ask you to subscribe via the website’?
On first use ap prompts log in only, user “WTF”, user visits webpage FAQ to learn they can create account via said web page, done. Spotify thinks their customers are dumb.
 
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I don’t know why. I hope they all get sued and allow more digital distribution channels.

If you carry that to its logical conclusion Spotify should be forced to alllow anyone to stream music on their platform; other wise they are being anti-competitive by limiting their content to only labels where they have a signed deal.
 
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Nope, every single country has laws, you have to abide by them, don't like it then go somewhere else.
If that was the case I could set my own tax rate for instance, if you sell something in a country you have to pay taxes, that's how it works with taxes and it so too works with doing business in those countries, same goes for the EU, play by the rules otherwise they will get ya.

You are right, of course, every country has laws for things like tax rates because those apply to every business equally. However, that's not what is being discussed here. What is under examination is whether a single business has the right to charge it's suppliers a commission on what it puts in its marketplace. If there is a determination made by the EU in this regard then will it only apply to Apple or will it apply to every single owner of a "marketplace" type site that sells goods and services provided by Apple? Better yet, will this ruling apply to business that don't even sell goods or services provided by others? Of course not...a ruling on commissions charged to third party suppliers cannot possibly apply to a business that doesn't use third party suppliers.

So on that basis, why are you trying to compare this situation to something like tax rates when clearly it is a completely different situation?!


Now, moving on to the actual "rules" that you are referring to. Under the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, there are two factors to Antitrust law. The first, covered under Article 101, covers situations where two or more market operators are working together and have agreements which restrict competition. Clearly that does not cover the situation here as Spotify and Apple Music aren't somehow colluding to artificially fix or inflate prices. However, Clause 1.d does prohibit "applying dissimilar conditions to equivalent transactions with other trading partners" which, if Spotify get the ruling that they want (assuming they want a reduction or removal of commissions for in-app purchases) would mean that Apple would need to lower the commission rates across the board for all Developers. In effect, Spotify, if they ask for a reduction, are actually asking for dissimilar conditions...the exact thing that the Treaty is set up to prohibit! So let's move on.

The other pertinent area is Article 102 which, and I quote, "prohibits firms that hold a dominant position on a given market to abuse that position". This seems to be the assertion of many on here so let's dig a little deeper. Taken from http://ec.europa.eu/competition/antitrust/procedures_102_en.html there is a clear statement, in fact more or less the very first statement, which says "The Commission's first step in an Article 102 investigation is to assess whether the undertaking concerned is dominant or not."

The Article then goes on to say "Market shares are a useful first indication of the importance of each firm on the market in comparison to the others. The Commission's view is that the higher the market share, and the longer the period of time over which it is held, the more likely it is to be a preliminary indication of dominance. If a company has a market share of less than 40%, it is unlikely to be dominant."

So what market are we talking about here? Smartphones as a whole? Or streaming music? If we consider smartphones as a whole then nope, Apple does not have a market share of over 40%. Fortune.com says "During the fourth quarter of 2018, global iPhone sales hit 64.5 million units, earning Apple 15.8% market share during the period." Not even close to a dominant position.

What about streaming music? Well Variety says "Spotify maintained its global market share of 36%, the same as in Q4 2017, with 83 million subscribers, the report says, noting that the streamer added more subscribers than any other service in the first half of 2018: 11.9 million. Meanwhile, Apple added two points of market share to reach 19%". Hmmm...based on that it would actually seem like Spotify are close to having a dominant position...but Apple...not so much.

Maybe if we talk about the market of "supplying apps to iOS devices"? Well then yes...Apple is the only supplier so that is a very different conversation! But that's not what Spotify is complaining about here and that is a much bigger conversation.

So, in essence, Apple does not have a dominant position - according to the EU test - for the market that Spotify operates in. Are there any other considerations? Of course, the Article goes on to say:

"The Commission also takes other factors into account in its assessment of dominance, including the ease with which other companies can enter the market – whether there are any barriers to this; the existence of countervailing buyer power; the overall size and strength of the company and its resources and the extent to which it is present at several levels of the supply chain (vertical integration)."

So taking these one by one, firstly we have "the ease with which other companies can enter the market". Spotify is already in the market, and was actually in the market before Apple. Plus the existence of Apple Music does nothing to preclude Spotify or other competitors from being in the market.

Countervailing buyer power refers to the power of larger organisations to exert pressure on suppliers to get better deals but, as has been pointed out earlier in this thread, royalty rates are set by statute so all streaming music platforms are legally required to pay the same rate, so this is irrelevant in this context.

The overall size and strength of the company is certainly one where Apple will beat Spotify but, for the purposes of an assessment of the streaming music market, Apple Music should be treated differently as the fact that Apple is a near-trillion dollar company does not allow them to exert any undue influence on suppliers (record labels) to that size only offers very limited competitive advantages such as economies of scale when it comes to hosting and delivery of content. Please do not mention that Apple has sole control of the iOS app market through the App Store as this is an entirely separate point which Spotify are not even challenging!

Finally we have the extent to which Apple is present at several levels of the supply chain...or...not...in this case. Apple Music is merely a delivery platform for other companies' product. They don't have a record label themselves. They have payment processing themselves but that will be fulfilled by one of the same providers as Spotify and many others so no advantage there. They have datacentres which deliver the content but I don't know if Spotify have their own datacentres or whether they use AWS or somebody similar. In any case, I don't think that having your own datacentre can really be considered as a factor for establishing "dominance" in a world where there are very competitive data delivery solutions available at all levels of budget for all sizes of company.

So on the basis of all of the above, what part of EU law is Apple violating? I am not a lawyer, but I can read and make reasonable interpretations. Of course the law is more nuanced than a simple two minute reading, but it seems like Apple is not even passing the very first test of dominance so I don't really see how further legal tests can be applied if the first one fails.

Input welcome from anybody else who can actually refer to statute rather than just opinion or belief...I love informed discussion..."opinion as fact" discussion...not so much!
 
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If you carry that to its logical conclusion Spotify should be forced to alllow anyone to stream music on their platform; other wise they are being anti-competitive by limiting their content to only labels where they have a signed deal.

Yes. Why not. Label companies already make a ton. All music streaming platform should able to stream all musics and artist will be better off. Better yet, we should force all label companies make all music available to anyone and everyone should pay decently for the artist.
 
Well maybe you would realize why Google isn't targeted if you would try Spotify on an Android device and see the payment options.

Their complaint is centered around the service charges. 3 claims were made in the suit, 2 are about the service charge, 1 about advertising. Maybe you'd realize that if you read the press release and legal briefing available on newsroom.spotify.com.
 
Maybe Spotify should just take their business elsewhere.

Except “elsewhere” doesn’t exist when we’re talking about a market of the size that’s represented by apple’s app store. The reason anti-trust laws exist is to protect society from predatory behavior as the society evolves and produces new types of markets. Pretending like the apple “app market” is completely apple’s idea, property and solely it’s own work relies on nearly the same type of logic that patent trolls use to defend patents on things like the “e-checkout cart.” No company can claim to entirely own the work and product of huge portion of society. Well, it ‘can’ and it ‘has’ but that’s never gone well.
 
Except “elsewhere” doesn’t exist when we’re talking about a market of the size that’s represented by apple’s app store. The reason anti-trust laws exist is to protect society from predatory behavior as the society evolves and produces new types of markets. Pretending like the apple “app market” is completely apple’s idea, property and solely it’s own work relies on nearly the same type of logic that patent trolls use to defend patents on things like the “e-checkout cart.” No company can claim to entirely own the work and product of huge portion of society. Well, it ‘can’ and it ‘has’ but that’s never gone well.

I don't think that anybody is trying to pretend that the "app market" as a whole was either invented by or owned by Apple. I think a distinction needs to be made between Apple protecting it's own platform and something like trying to patent an "e-checkout cart" as you described.

If I was a web developer and I coded my own implementation of a checkout cart, I should be allowed by law to protect my own code. I wouldn't be saying that I own the concept of checkout carts, just that I own the implementation that I have created myself.

And please, let's not cycle back to the repetitive argument that Apple's situation is different because they prevent other alternatives for loading apps on to the iPhone/iPad, that is a different argument. If Apple allowed unauthorised apps to be side-loaded onto an iPhone then Apple would undoubtedly have an exponential growth in the number of support requests and complaints that their hardware wasn't functioning as intended. The only way to avoid this is to have an authorisation process.

Apple aren't the only company that works this way. There are many companies that will not honour warranties if unauthorised parts have been used. The only difference is that Apple is actually able to prevent unauthorised parts being used as it provides the marketplace for those parts. Do you think that Ford or GM wouldn't do the same if they had the opportunity? You can argue that having a choice of where to buy parts benefits the consumer because there can be cheaper options...but cheaper doesn't mean better...corners may be cut...and then the product overall suffers...and then people go back to Ford or GM complaining that something is wrong.


On the second point I highlighted above, if I somehow came up with a cure for the common cold which was used worldwide by hundreds of millions of people, are you suggesting that - owing purely to the fact that a huge portion of society uses my product - I should somehow be forced to relinquish ownership of, and rights to, that product?
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Yes. Why not. Label companies already make a ton. All music streaming platform should able to stream all musics and artist will be better off. Better yet, we should force all label companies make all music available to anyone and everyone should pay decently for the artist.

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not?! I certainly hope so! If not then let me reply...

If all music platforms had all music available to stream...how would the artists be better off? If a person is going to listen to a song...they aren't going to listen to it three times as often just because it is available on all platforms! They will listen to it the same amount of times and will just choose their favourite platform to listen to it on!

As to your second point...that is, quite frankly, bordering on insanity! You propose that every label should be forced to release all music? So a record label is legally compelled to release music by an artist just because that artist wants it to be released? The label is forced to spend money releasing music that it doesn't like...just to satisfy the Participation Trophy mentality? There is a reason why there is so much garbage music released these days...it is because setting up your own label is pretty much a five minute job so anybody can release their music...regardless of quality. Record labels, for all their ills, in the past served as quality control to at least some extent. Sure, there wasn't as much music available, but there was as much good music available. It was also arguably easier to find as it wasn't drowning in an audio cesspool...

Or maybe you meant that all labels should be forced to make the music that they do choose to release available on all platforms? Two things if that's the case. Firstly, 99% of music will be released in exactly that manner. No record label will choose not to sell music to an outlet that could make them money. The only exception would be certain "exclusives" and the reason that a record label would agree to an exclusive would normally be because, in exchange for limiting the release to only that platform, the release would get a more prominent position in the store which experience would tell them is probably worth more to them than having it available on all platforms. Even in those cases, often the "exclusive" would only be for a period of time anyway.

Finally you mention that with your ideas in place, everyone would pay decently for the artist. So does that mean that people would purchase the music more than once because it is available on more than one platform? Or does that mean that because they were getting less sales (owing to the increased competition), record stores (online or bricks and mortar) would actually pay more to the label? Or would the label pay more to the artist because they were selling more (they wouldn't be selling more...the sales would just be split among different platforms)? Or would the public pay more just because the music was available on all platforms? None of the above make sense...
 
Their complaint is centered around the service charges. 3 claims were made in the suit, 2 are about the service charge, 1 about advertising. Maybe you'd realize that if you read the press release and legal briefing available on newsroom.spotify.com.
Actually their complaint is centered around the idea that Apple is both player and referee and it gives them an unfair advantage. What you mention are just some points they made to support this general idea. Maybe you'd realize that if you read the press release and legal briefing available on spotify.com.

Anyway my point stands, Spotify doesn't target Google because on Android, Spotify can place in their app a subscribe button that automatically opens a web link to their site(without the user needing to leave the Spotify app) and it allows them to bypass Google's payment system.
From what I can see they want this option to exist on iOS as well and there are high chances the EU Commission will side with them.
 
Luckily you're not the CEO of a major company because you'd lose investors and money thinking it's a smart move to pull out of the EU. You seem to be leading with your emotions rather (which is pretty common here) than doing logical thinking. It's not about this is about Spotify being able to properly advertise their app in their app store description, not about placing ads all over iOS. Also your comparison to an app store vs physical stores are Apple's to Watermelons.

Well, let's see, I never said it was a smart move to pull out of the EU, only that it was an option and I was speculating on what the response would be to that action. Would you care to explain why Spotify has the right to place whatever add they want in the App Store, or why, in your opinion, there is no comparison with a physical store?
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For those of you who feel that Apple shouldn't be charging 30%/15%...what do you think would be a "fair" charge for Apple to levy on Spotify then? 20%? 10%? 5%? What then happens to all of the other Developers who then demand the same rates? And what about those developers whose apps are massively data and resource heavy so that the hosting and fulfilment costs are much higher?

And if Apple's revenue from the store were reduced, at what point do you think that Apple will decide it's no longer cost effective to run the App Store and shut it down cutting everyone out of the market? I know it's unlikely because the benefits to Apple go beyond the revenue from the App Store, but it does seem, aside from Spotify, that there are very few developers complaining about the 30% cut for having access to a very lucrative marketplace.
 
Luckily you're not the CEO of a major company because you'd lose investors and money thinking it's a smart move to pull out of the EU.

That's not necessarily true. They could simply geo-fence the Spotify app so that it couldn't be sold in the EU but was still available to all users outside of the EU. Then it would be a simple decision of weighing up the loss of the $3 per month from X number of Spotify users on iOS (those inside the EU) against a loss of (for example) $2 per month - owing to a reduction across the board to 10% for example - of all Spotify users on iOS.

While I don't know what the numbers are for iOS Spotify users per country, it could well make sense - financially at least - to actually pull the app from the EU and leave the 30% in place in all other territories.
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Well, let's see, I never said it was a smart move to pull out of the EU, only that it was an option and I was speculating on what the response would be to that action. Would you care to explain why Spotify has the right to place whatever add they want in the App Store, or why, in your opinion, there is no comparison with a physical store?
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And if Apple's revenue from the store were reduced, at what point do you think that Apple will decide it's no longer cost effective to run the App Store and shut it down cutting everyone out of the market? I know it's unlikely because the benefits to Apple go beyond the revenue from the App Store, but it does seem, aside from Spotify, that there are very few developers complaining about the 30% cut for having access to a very lucrative marketplace.

Exactly! The App Store is not some "public good" that Apple is providing. It is a business and if over-regulation means that it is no longer profitable enough for them (based on their own criteria and not what some internet activist claims is "fair" or "deserved") then, as you suggest, they will simply shut it down.

Apple is already clearly pivoting much more towards services as the global smartphone market reaches an inevitable plateau (or even downturn) so don't be surprised if, at some point in the future when the iPhone is not the massive cash cow that it is now - Apple just decides to shut it all down because it's too much working fighting off the beggars with their "Please Sir, can I have some more" attitude...even though they have been earning good money...because Apple dares to want to make money itself...
 
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