EU to Investigate Apple Over Spotify's Antitrust Complaint

[TVOR]

Yeah of course you do.

And that statement is based on what knowledge of me exactly? On the basis of what I have posted on this thread? Then of course it’s obvious! I have made my position very clear. If that’s what you are basing your “of course you do” on then it’s a redundant comment! Anybody who has read my posts will know what my position is. I’m sure nobody needs you to clarify!

I have facts to back up my opinion. I’m not saying that there isn’t another side to the story, but at least I try to explain why I feel the way I do rather than just blurting out a one-liner. Some people may feel that I write too much...and that’s a fair point...but nobody can accuse me of not thinking my opinions through...same cannot be said for everybody of course...

And my thoughts on Spotify come from the position of being a musician myself (in the past to be fair). While the consumer may love the free tier and love the way that Spotify positions itself against Grey Apple Bad, the rates they pay are appalling and I have heard from a trusted source they they are even trying to negotiate to pay even less! They may be the public’s friend...but they are not the artist’s friend...that much I do know.

Apple has it's faults for sure, but this whole argument that Apple is unfair because they are making more money that Spotify is, IMHO, ridiculous! If that rationale were applied to all businesses then many businesses would simply shut their doors because the juice wouldn’t be worth the squeeze. And how would that benefit the consumer?

 

[ROGmaster]

And that statement is based on what knowledge of me exactly? On the basis of what I have posted on this thread? Then of course it’s obvious! I have made my position very clear. If that’s what you are basing your “of course you do” on then it’s a redundant comment! Anybody who has read my posts will know what my position is. I’m sure nobody needs you to clarify!

I have facts to back up my opinion. I’m not saying that there isn’t another side to the story, but at least I try to explain why I feel the way I do rather than just blurting out a one-liner. Some people may feel that I write too much...and that’s a fair point...but nobody can accuse me of not thinking my opinions through...same cannot be said for everybody of course...

And my thoughts on Spotify come from the position of being a musician myself (in the past to be fair). While the consumer may love the free tier and love the way that Spotify positions itself against Grey Apple Bad, the rates they pay are appalling and I have heard from a trusted source they they are even trying to negotiate to pay even less! They may be the public’s friend...but they are not the artist’s friend...that much I do know.

Apple has it's faults for sure, but this whole argument that Apple is unfair because they are making more money that Spotify is, IMHO, ridiculous! If that rationale were applied to all businesses then many businesses would simply shut their doors because the juice wouldn’t be worth the squeeze. And how would that benefit the consumer?

LoL

 

[TVOR]

LoL

Not a single contradiction of any of my points...not a single counter-argument...not even a partial sentence explaining that you think what I said was somehow laughable...just “lol”!

Ladies and gentlemen...welcome to The State of Conversation: 2019 Edition

 

[ROGmaster]

I don't feel any need to contradict weak irrelevant points that will be invalidated anyway once the EU Commission presents the result of their investigation.
I saw the same never ending discussions when apple was being investigated for not paying their fair share of taxes in Ireland. And what happened? Apple was forced to pay those taxes. The End.

 

[dilbert99]

As far as I know, Apple doesn't get a cut from Netflix on iOS...simply because Netflix requires users to sign up on the website, thereby avoiding the commission on the in-app purchases...something that Spotify has the option to do but doesn't seem to want to.

Apple used to get a cut, but new netflix subscribers cannot sign up any more on Apple.
I stopped my subscription even though I was able to use discount itunes vouchers to pay for the subscription because I want Netflix to succeed and continue to give me great content.
[doublepost=1557306739][/doublepost]

But I ask you, as I have asked others in this thread and not yet received a single reply, if Apple doesn't "deserve" the large cut then give me a number that you do think is deserved and reasonable...

$0

Look at it another way. Netflix can put an app on windows, linux and macos and allow subscribers to sign up. Neither Microsoft or Apple get a cut of that subscription because they do not provide the subscription mechanism or payment gateway. Do you think that Apple or Microsoft should get a cut on Windows or MacOs?

 

[BuffaloTF]

Well it seems that not everyone can understand what they are reading.

Actually it was a very smart move to file this complain with the EU. You will realize this when the commission concludes their investigation(which wouldn't even have started if things were like you present them above)

Yeah..... ok.....

Apple operates a platform that, for over a billion people around the world, is the gateway to the internet. Apple is both the owner of the iOS platform and the App Store—and a competitor to services like Spotify. In theory, this is fine. But in Apple’s case, they continue to give themselves an unfair advantage at every turn.

To illustrate what I mean, let me share a few examples. Apple requires that Spotify and other digital services pay a 30% tax on purchases made through Apple’s payment system, including upgrading from our Free to our Premium service. If we pay this tax, it would force us to artificially inflate the price of our Premium membership well above the price of Apple Music. And to keep our price competitive for our customers, that isn’t something we can do.

You sure you aren’t discussing yourself? Every charge they allege is centered around this statement.
[doublepost=1557313810][/doublepost]

Look at it another way. Netflix can put an app on windows, linux and macos and allow subscribers to sign up. Neither Microsoft or Apple get a cut of that subscription because they do not provide the subscription mechanism or payment gateway. Do you think that Apple or Microsoft should get a cut on Windows or MacOs?

You see... the problem here is that you don’t understand that what you stated is not an analog in any manner. In both examples, they aren’t using Apple’s (or Microsoft’s) subscription service. Neither are processing the payments; and processing a payment results in a service charge into the payment network used (Visa, MC, Discover) and the merchant services company offering the link between them (like Global Payments Systems, Worldpay, Vantiv, First Data). So $0? Yeah. Not only are you looking for them to provide a service for free, you’re asking them to eat all of the associated costs.

 

[dilbert99]

You see... the problem here is that you don’t understand that what you stated is not an analog in any manner. In both examples, they aren’t using Apple’s (or Microsoft’s) subscription service. Neither are processing the payments; and processing a payment results in a service charge into the payment network used (Visa, MC, Discover) and the merchant services company offering the link between them (like Global Payments Systems, Worldpay, Vantiv, First Data). So $0? Yeah. Not only are you looking for them to provide a service for free, you’re asking them to eat all of the associated costs.

No, you misquote. I understand perfectly.

It is a perfect analogue on many OS there is no payment, but on iOS there is. This is an issue for those that have their own services and don't want to use Apples. But Apple does allow it on OSX but not iOS. Apple is forcing companies to use Apples payment services on iOS but not MacOS

 

[BuffaloTF]

No, you misquote. I understand perfectly.

It is a perfect analogue on many OS there is no payment, but on iOS there is. This is an issue for those that have their own services and don't want to use Apples. But Apple does allow it on OSX but not iOS. Apple is forcing companies to use Apples payment services on iOS but not MacOS

You absolutely can use another payment service on iOS, there's nothing preventing it. Using the App Store payment service comes with a charge.

 

[ipponrg]

You absolutely can use another payment service on iOS, there's nothing preventing it. Using the App Store payment service comes with a charge.

No, I think you missed this entire thread. It’s a requirement to use the App Store payment service to handle in app digital purchases. Developers don’t have a choice.

 

[dilbert99]

You absolutely can use another payment service on iOS, there's nothing preventing it. Using the App Store payment service comes with a charge.

Apple doesn't let you put a pay here button in the Apps. Hence why netflix doesn't.

What apps do you know let you subscribe in app without using Apple

 

[TVOR]

I don't feel any need to contradict weak irrelevant points that will be invalidated anyway once the EU Commission presents the result of their investigation.
I saw the same never ending discussions when apple was being investigated for not paying their fair share of taxes in Ireland. And what happened? Apple was forced to pay those taxes. The End.

There you go...wasn’t that hard was it!! Now about the Ireland taxes...my understanding - and I openly admit I could be wrong here - was that Ireland gave Apple tax breaks and Apple paid all that it was asked to pay. My understanding is that the EU wasn’t happy with Ireland giving those tax breaks.

As I said...I could be wrong! But in my mind...you want an example of anti-competitive behaviour...it would be the EU telling a country that it can’t offer tax breaks to whoever it chooses to within the law of that country. The EU is, in my opinion, a total disaster and should have died a death a long time ago! As a trading bloc (as it originally was) it was fine but it has gone way too far now and this example is a perfect illustration of that. As always...just my opinion...

 

[BuffaloTF]

No, I think you missed this entire thread. It’s a requirement to use the App Store payment service to handle in app digital purchases. Developers don’t have a choice.

I think you missed the entire point that you don’t need to use in-app purchases.

You are welcome to use a separate method, which they highlight you need to do within their app.

 

[Ethosik]

This outcome will absolutely destroy the App Store. Why would ANYONE go through Apple for payments and take a 30% cut if alternatives are available.

This result could be very very bad. Apple would get $0 from developers. Expect the iOS development program to be $100 a month as a result. Is this what people want?

 

[BuffaloTF]

Apple doesn't let you put a pay here button in the Apps. Hence why netflix doesn't.

What apps do you know let you subscribe in app without using Apple

Every single app is allowed to establish a separate payment method.

It’s called the internet. And you don’t need anything special to use it. You launch the preloaded Safari and go.

 

[ipponrg]

Every single app is allowed to establish a separate payment method.

It’s called the internet. And you don’t need anything special to use it. You launch the preloaded Safari and go.

The apps are not allowed to link out to Safari for an online digital transaction as it violates their developer agreement with Apple. That's the whole point you're missing.

 

[TVOR]

The apps are not allowed to link out to Safari for an online digital transaction as it violates their developer agreement with Apple. That's the whole point you're missing.

And everybody who signs I’m to the app can receive an email from the app provider with a signup link. It’s literally one extra step...and that’s the point that you and many others are missing.

 

[BuffaloTF]

The apps are not allowed to link out to Safari for an online digital transaction as it violates their developer agreement with Apple. That's the whole point you're missing.

Ok. And?

I’m not missing the point here, you are. This brings us back full circle to what has already been provided in this thread.

They provide direction on what needs to be done. And that’s not what they’re alleging in their suit. Their issue is with the 15% charge to use the App Store as the payment processor. It’s their entire argument. They claim this forces them to charge more, which is untrue - they make that choice themselves. They further sell Spotify branded gift cards where they need to pay 20% to Blackhawk Networks on the face value of the card; so they’re getting 8 dollars total on a 9.99 subscription... which is less than the 8.50 they’d get from selling through Apple at the 15%. Somehow, this is workable for them? Please.

Also- In the EU, there exists a “shelf tax” for items sold in stores that ranges from 20-30%. Producers can choose to sell at those stores or not. The same holds true with the App Store. They can not pay 15% and find a different way to sell their item. Aldi doesn’t tell their customers they need to go to Lidl to buy a certain product, now do they...

 

[truthertech]

Funnily enough, I heard from one of the people I know in the music industry that Spotify is due to renew its contracts with all of the major labels soon and that it will be actually be trying to negotiate to reduce the royalties that it pays!!

Now, how true that is I don’t know...and whether or not they will be successful is another story...but, if true, I think that seriously undermines the position of all those here who are defending Spotify...

Will be interesting to see over the coming months of this rumour turns out to be true!

The fact that Spotify already pays artists about half what Apple does, and that they are opposing the efforts to increase payments to artists are both facts.

"Another key development was when the U.S. Copyright Royalty Board announced in January 2018 that there would be a 44% raise of songwriter royalty rates (don't ask why this is decided by the federal government). But Spotify and other streaming services — except Apple Music — officially appealed that songwriter pay raise last month, and it led to an uproar in the music community."

 

[gnasher729]

I think there is another thing to consider...in the case of Ebay and Uber, both of those companies don't actually provide the end product or service, they are merely the platform used to connect buyer with seller (or passenger with driver in the case of Uber). Now in the case of Amazon, some of the products on Amazon are sold directly by Amazon but there are also a large number of third party suppliers where Amazon simply provides the platform for other users to sell to the Amazon customers (and takes a commission...shocking!). Perhaps that is something to do with it (aside from the digital vs. tangible argument)? I don't know for a fact but it is a clear distinction in business model between Uber/Ebay/Amazon (sometimes) and Spotify...

As far as Apple is concerned, they don't care about anyone's business model. They care whether the purchase ends up on your iPhone or ends up somewhere else. A very simple distinction.
[doublepost=1557330715][/doublepost]

Yes, I understand curation. What you are avoiding is my question as to what user benefit there is to not allowing Spotify to use their own payment system in-app while allowing other sellers of services or physical goods to do so. What exactly is being curated?

But that's not a question that anyone needs to answer. Apple runs a business, and they run it the way they wish. Apple makes the distinction: Digital goods vs. physical goods and services. Their decision. Made long before Spotify started.
[doublepost=1557330931][/doublepost]

As far as I know, Apple Music isn’t a separate legal entity but even if was it was, you believe that Apple (Music) paying Apple (Inc.) somehow makes things more fair? I don’t get it...

What would be unfair competition would be if Apple (Music) can undercut Spotify in price because Spotify needs to be profitable after paying Apple, while Apple (Music) doesn't have to. So I could see that Apple's accountants will come out and say "Apple (Music) had revenue of 100 million, we subtract 30% for new subscriptions and 15% for old ones, and they pay the musicians, and they pay to deliver the music, and after all that have some profit left. "
[doublepost=1557331389][/doublepost]

More fake news. Better tell that to the 160K employees they have in the UK working in over 600 stores. LOL.

Walmart tried to run shops in Germany, and had to run back to America with their tail between their legs. They promised quality at cheap prizes, and the Germans found they were not cheap, and there was no quality . I remember how they went to one big food manufacturer saying "we are going to check out your plant", and the answer was "you're not, f*** off".

And Walmart absolutely hides the fact that they own Asda, because telling the public would be devastating for revenue.
[doublepost=1557331678][/doublepost]

Uber, Amazon, eBay, etc. are apps with physical goods and physical services. None of them uses iTunes as a payment portal.

Actually, Apple doesn't even _allow_ using "In-App purchases" through iTunes for physical goods. Apple Pay on the other hand is no problem.

 

[dilbert99]

Every single app is allowed to establish a separate payment method.

It’s called the internet. And you don’t need anything special to use it. You launch the preloaded Safari and go.

Don’t be so facetious.

So your comeback to my question is to say it is not possible in the app by giving a straw man that it is possible over the web.

We are talking about in app subscriptions which you should know is not allowed by Apple on iOS but is on OS X

 

[BuffaloTF]

Don’t be so facetious.

So your comeback to my question is to say it is not possible in the app by giving a straw man that it is possible over the web.

We are talking about in app subscriptions which you should know is not allowed by Apple on iOS but is on OS X

That's not facetious, it's a tangible fact. It can be done. They maintain the ability to do so.

In-App Purchases, inclusive of subscriptions, route thru the App Store for payment processing. That's the rule that's established. There's no rule preventing them from completing a signup process in the app, and that signup process generating the almost guaranteed "confirm your email" message, which could include directions right then and there on how to subscribe; that email is there whether you want it or not, and you're at their website as a result of it. Since you're going to be linked right into it anyway, how about placing them where you can subscribe? This is only a problem for a company that wants in-app purchases to be free, for Apple to eat the associated costs, because their business model is terrible and they refuse to alter it.

 

[ipponrg]

They claim this forces them to charge more, which is untrue - they make that choice themselves.

Shrug. Says it right here in the Apple Developer guidelines

3.1.1 In-App Purchase:

• If you want to unlock features or functionality within your app, (by way of example: subscriptions, in-game currencies, game levels, access to premium content, or unlocking a full version), you must use in-app purchase. Apps may not use their own mechanisms to unlock content or functionality, such as license keys, augmented reality markers, QR codes, etc. Apps and their metadata may not include buttons, external links, or other calls to action that direct customers to purchasing mechanisms other than in-app purchase.

Reference: https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#in-app-purchase

 

[BuffaloTF]

Shrug. Says it right here in the Apple Developer guidelines

3.1.1 In-App Purchase:

• If you want to unlock features or functionality within your app, (by way of example: subscriptions, in-game currencies, game levels, access to premium content, or unlocking a full version), you must use in-app purchase. Apps may not use their own mechanisms to unlock content or functionality, such as license keys, augmented reality markers, QR codes, etc. Apps and their metadata may not include buttons, external links, or other calls to action that direct customers to purchasing mechanisms other than in-app purchase.

Reference: https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#in-app-purchase

Register Now

abc123@email.com
*notification pops up for email received, click and the email opens*

Verify your email address - click here! *webpage opens*

Congratulations! You’ve verified your email address.... subscription options.....


Really, it’s this simple. All started by an action in the app, perfectly within the TOS.

—

And about what you quoted, which is not related to what you wrote... it’s their decision to charge more. Nobody else’s.

 

[ipponrg]

And about what you quoted, which is not related to what you wrote... it’s their decision to charge more. Nobody else’s.

I was quoting purchasing digital goods in app without using Apple IAP. I'm not sure what you're talking about anymore. If I am understanding you correctly, you're saying it's still possible for developers to offer out of band purchases.

Let me link you to more parts of the developer agreement:

• 3.1.3(b) Multiplatform Services: Apps that operate across multiple platforms may allow users to access content, subscriptions, or features they have acquired elsewhere, including consumable items in multi-platform games, provided those items are also available as in-app purchases within the app. You must not directly or indirectly target iOS users to use a purchasing method other than in-app purchase, and your general communications about other purchasing methods must not discourage use of in-app purchase.

 

[ROGmaster]

There you go...wasn’t that hard was it!! Now about the Ireland taxes...my understanding -

LoL, I don't care.

an example of anti-competitive behaviour it would be the EU telling a country that it can’t offer tax breaks to whoever it chooses to within the law of that country.

WOW you have don't understand this subject at all. You don't understand how EU works, I hope you don't live in Europe because it would make it even more embarrassing.