EU Warns Apple About Limiting Speeds of Uncertified USB-C Cables for iPhones

[BaldiMac]

Then read the text instead of complaining and making things up of what you think.

I did read the text of the first picture you posted in response to a question about cables. It was about chargers. Which is what I pointed out.

Yes right in the impact assessment document.


View attachment 2200394

Your own source said 21% of consumers use wireless chargers. Not the 2% you claimed.

(As an aside, I don't believe that 94% of consumers use the EPS that came with their phone because most phones don't include an EPS.)

It's only subjective what's important to you.

Exactly my point.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

So that's a huge difference, the new law doesn't allow for any port, as long as it come with an adapter. The new law says the device has to have that port. So it becomes a chicken and egg situation where they won't update the law until enough devices have the new "USB-D" port and no manufacture is going to create or design a "USB-D" port until they have a law that supports it. Did they remove the current Micro USB law, or are all new USB-C phones currently having to ship with adapters with them? or was there an overlap where you would get a new phone with USB-C and have a MicroUSB adapter? (Just curious)

It was discontinued 8~ month before usb c was released publicly. So after may 2014 you didn't have to use micro usb or have an adapter hence why apple stopped including one.

This law will be reviewed in 2025 and a complete review in 2028 so in almost 5 years.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

I did read the text of the first picture you posted in response to a question about cables. It was about chargers. Which is what I pointed out.

Am I supposed to post 144 pictures?
Here you have the summary if you can't bother to read it.

Or you can read the full document.

Your own source said 21% of consumers use wireless chargers. Not the 2% you claimed.

(As an aside, I don't believe that 94% of consumers use the EPS that came with their phone because most phones don't include an EPS.)

The study was done in 2021 when most phones was still sold with EPS.

Apple stoped providing an EPS in end of 2020.

And 1% always use a wireless charger like you. And 5% most of the time. Apple have a 33~% marketshare.

So if you include the occasional uses it that puts apple wireless users at 7%. Or if you only include the ones who actually use it it becomes 2%

 

[darngooddesign]

…

 

[BaldiMac]

Am I supposed to post 144 pictures?
Here you have the summary if you can't bother to read it.

No, you're just not supposed to post a picture about chargers in response to a question about cables. Simple.

The study was done in 2021 when most phones was still sold with EPS.

Fair enough.

And 1% always use a wireless charger like you. And 5% most of the time.

Nope. Again, your own chart says 4% used it always.

Apple have a 33~% marketshare.

So if you include the occasional uses it that puts apple wireless users at 7%. Or if you only include the ones who actually use it it becomes 2%

What nonsense. You said "2% of users use wireless charging". That's completely wrong according to your own data. The real number was 21%. And that was 2 years ago.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Nope. Again, your own chart says 4% used it always.

Well it looked like 1% for me.

What nonsense. You said "2% of users use wireless charging". That's completely wrong according to your own data. The real number was 21%. And that was 2 years ago.

My bad, what I meant is those who have replaced the cable with wireless charging. I don't count people who use it at starbucks.

 

[BaldiMac]

View attachment 2200793
Well it looked like 1% for me.

My bad, what I meant is those who have replaced the cable with wireless charging. I don't count people who use it at starbucks.

Even if that's what you meant, you're still way off. Again, 9% used it most of the time 2 years ago. That number has surely grown.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Even if that's what you meant, you're still way off. Again, 9% used it most of the time 2 years ago. That number has surely grown.

Well no, it increases the number from 2% to 3%.
9% is all phone users. IPhones only had 33% marketshare in 2021.

 

[BaldiMac]

Well no, it increases the number from 2% to 3%.
9% is all phone users. IPhones only had 33% marketshare in 2021.

What does that have to do with anything? We weren't talking about iPhones.

(And obviously iPhone users are significantly more likely to use wireless charging than android users, so your calculation is completely made up.)

 

[Sophisticatednut]

What does that have to do with anything? We weren't talking about iPhones.

(And obviously iPhone users are significantly more likely to use wireless charging than android users, so your calculation is completely made up.)

What data do we have that android users are less likely to use wireless charging? iPhones have had wireless charging since 2017

We have talked about iPhones from the beginning as they are the only one talks are about going portles.

 

[BaldiMac]

What data do we have that android users are less likely to use wireless charging? iPhones have had wireless charging since 2017

Common sense. Almost all iPhones in use support wireless charging and their user base is more well off.

We have talked about iPhones from the beginning as they are the only one talks are about going portles.

No, we haven't. Again, our conversation started with your claim that "2% of users use wireless charging". Then you revised that claim to say you didn't count people who used it occasionally. You've been wrong every step of the way.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Common sense. Almost all iPhones in use support wireless charging and their user base is more well off.

Common sence doesn't prove that. Being wealthy doesn't mean you will use wireless chargers more.

No, we haven't. Again, our conversation started with your claim that "2% of users use wireless charging". Then you revised that claim to say you didn't count people who used it occasionally. You've been wrong every step of the way.

The whole conversation have been about iPhones need to have USB c. Why would my claim ever reflect the rest of the market who are completely unrelated to the article or anything commented.

Haven't been wrong in my claimed as I have evidence backing it up. You on the other hand have just opinions with no backing.

And indeed using the chsrger at Starbucks isn't a replacement of the cable.

 

[BaldiMac]

Common sence doesn't prove that. Being wealthy doesn't mean you will use wireless chargers more.

You don't think that having more money would make you more likely to buy extra, more expensive chargers? Whatever.

And then you ignored the other half of my argument that many android phones didn't even support wireless charging in 2021, while almost all iPhones did.

Only 1 billion smartphone with wireless charging in 2021. Out of 4.3 billion smartphones.

Strategy Analytics: One Billion Smartphones Worldwide Have Wireless Charging

According to new research from Strategy Analytics, the installed base of wireless charging capable smartphones will reach the record setting one billion mark...

www.businesswire.com

The whole conversation have been about iPhones need to have USB c. Why would my claim ever reflect the rest of the market who are completely unrelated to the article or anything commented.

Haven't been wrong in my claimed as I have evidence backing it up. You on the other hand have just opinions with no backing.

And indeed using the chsrger at Starbucks isn't a replacement of the cable.

No, the conversation that we have been having is about your claim that I've quoted multiple times.

 

[gaximus]

It was discontinued 8~ month before usb c was released publicly. So after may 2014 you didn't have to use micro usb or have an adapter hence why apple stopped including one.

This law will be reviewed in 2025 and a complete review in 2028 so in almost 5 years.

Interesting, Quick search show that USB-C was designed in 2014, when the micro-usb was no longer a law.

 

[tripsync]

Good luck arguing that in court without being laughed at. Apple and every other company isn't targeted for their nationality. They are targeted exactly for what they do.

Not just that, this as well https://fra.europa.eu/en/eu-charter/article/16-freedom-conduct-business?page=1

"paragraph 19 of the grounds, and judgment of 5 October 1999, C-240/97 Spain v Commission [1999] ECR I-6571, paragraph 99 of the grounds) and Article 119(1) and (3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, which recognises free competition."

Apple can argue lightning is far simpler to use than USB-C, but EU won't let them.

Sorry, but you're wrong here.

Compared to the amount of usb cables sold a year... Yes it's not a big market.

No. Looking at EU market, the video game business is actually larger than the USB-C market.

No they have changed how it's formed to become less annoying. Because companies must still by law ask for consent to store information about you.

Cookies or not, everyone hates popups on websites. Wouldn't the EU ban the popups, even just the non-cookie ones? If no, your reasoning you gave earlier doesn't quite make sense.

Echo is owned and managed by Amazon. Amazon is a gatekeeper.
Minimum requirements:
75 billion a year in EU
45 million monthly active users in EU
10.000 yearly business users in EU

You have to prove the Alexa platform is "important gateway for business users to reach end users".

Can you point out a single thing proving that?

Sure, Apple can point to the lack of spec updates making it simple for consumers to use as they don't have a drawer of complex mix and match lightning cables unlike USB-C.

It's not about the specs.

Protocol is part of the specs to which you stated USB-IF is the minimum for comparing against lightning and therefore it's better.

If it's not about the specs, what argument are you going to change to now? Remember you didn't even state USB-IF in your initial assertion. You're constantly changing what you said earlier. Your quote: "The minimum usb c to USB C cable standard is equivalent to lightning. "

The minimum USB-C to USB-C official cable I own from a reputable manufacturer does NOT have overcurrent protection.

A shipped cable is USB-IF certified. They aren't shipping fake products. The minimum usb c cable is a verified. Anything less than that isn't a USB cable and aren't allowed to be sold as such.

It's as asinine to say the minimum MFi cable is a lightning cable without beings certified because it's sold as one. Both are illegal and considered counterfeits that gets confiscated and destroying in customs if caught

100% wrong. Google shipped a bad USB-C to USB-C for Nexus 6p: https://web.archive.org/web/2019032...e.com/102612254593917101378/posts/JnwTGBFixug

Not USB-IF certified.

No it means the rules are the same and

and? you cited being able to add Thunderbolt as a competitive advantage. but everyone has that advantage so it's not a competitive advantage.

I'm saying death is accelerated but the number of cables aren't.

Aren't what? number of cables aren't what? that doesn't make sense.

The end result is fewer cables are needed to do the same job.

That wasn't the point anyways.

It does as I showed further up. 80%~ don't throw cables away. They just store it or give it away

Further up? You only showed one screenshot in that post.

To usb peripherals

"the vast minority tho to usb perhipherals" is an incomplete statement. again i have no idea what you're trying to say.

The only point it make sence to have one cable is for devices with only one port.

If lightning didn't exist, sure. But there are billions out there in the world. Accelerating the death of billions of perfectly functional cables and accelerating the demand of USB-C cables is actually worse for the environment than just letting a natural death run its course.

The number of cables, e waste, consumer convenience etc has a completly difrent numerical goal that you. They had 5 options that went up for vote. They don't have the goal to make everything usb c, and that is why they don't go as far as you in your arbitrary rexamples.

they're not arbitrary, they're answering the points cited by EU

 

[tripsync]

The need to click more than once to deny them your information. Concent is legally required. But if you press yes on everything it won't return

Even if that's the case, non-cookie popups are still legal. Majority hates popups on websites. So why not ban that too if EU represents the people?

Impossible question. It can easily be 5 or 10 years as well. It's speculating on no data but rumors.

Not an impossible question. Hypotheticals can suddenly point to keeping lightning as the better option. Even can create a law saying "manufacturers can continue for another 5 years if they plan to go portless on the 6th" which would be a better option than temporarily going USB-C.

No they aren't virtually the same. Look at games done on both platforms are constructed very difrently.

Not even Xbox games and PC games are similar even tho they have less difrences.
Intel Mac and Intel windows and Intel Ubuntu isn't compatible.

They used to on Playstation 3 and Xbox 360 but that's not the case anymore. I think you're operating on outdated information.

Arm windows and arm Mac isn't compatible on any level. The maximum they can ask for is allowing third party solutions to be developed and that's it. IPhone will be forced to allow third party stores to be installed, but not android apps as that doesn't work or make sence.

Except Xbox Series X literally uses the same graphics API (DirectX 12 Ultimate) as on PC. PS5 uses GNM which mirror's DirectX since the AMD chip was designed for DirectX 12.

At the very least, all Xbox games should run on all Windows games. That you can't really argue against.

To get Playstation working on the more powerful Xbox, it's a simple middleware to make the engine run both systems because GNM is extremely similar to DirectX because of practically the same GPU being used.

For Xbox to be considered a gatekeeper it one must have more than 75 billion in revenue, 45 million consumers and 10.000 companies they work with.

Well no, the market cap of the company must be $75 billion euros OR 7.5 billion in yearly revenue, sony reaches that. Sony has over 104m global MAU on the store and that doesn't even include people who don't use the store, easily reaches 45 million consumers. Sony has over 10k developers+hardware manufacturers+brick and mortar stores they work with+etc....

Sony is a gatekeeper, yet nothing is happening?

The fact Playstation and Xbox together don't even scratch 30 billion makes them irrelevant. IPhones blow that out of the waters.

wrong. see above.

Will se in August. Very likely you will have the ability to use a third party virtual assistant depending on how smart speakers are interpreted.

Again that's just consumer interaction.
And not the technical specifications of the things.

i'll repeat: for one, you didn't even give the criteria, you just said it's "better" and that's subjective. are you going to move goal posts and change the argument to be only "better with regards to specs"?

Literally just your opinion. Do you have data backing it up?

your "It's not mor environmentally friendly." is an opinion too. i gave plenty of reasons why it is more environmentally friendly before.

Read the legislation and you will know.

I'm sure you'll give me a screenshot.

Perhaps everyone else will be forced to go portles.

Then forcing USB-C now is a terrible idea.

This is an artificial problem

Nonsensical

because it uses usb 2.0(2000) If It used usb 3(2008) or actually current technology I could drop my entire movie catalogue in iTunes and it would finish in a few minutes and be done before you leave the room.
You would still eat your second breakfast for it to finish.

so your use case suddenly is more important than my usecase? weird take.

And lack of availability is absolutely an argument

not when talking about speed.

Over time? Shall I become retired before wifi is usable? Wifi 6 that the latest iPhone have curently is the same theoreticall speed as usb 3.0 that have existed since the iphone was invented.

Over time doesn't mean today. It means over time.
"After Wi-Fi 6e comes Wi-Fi 7, promising 40Gbps real-world speeds"

Wi-Fi 7 on the way before many have even upgraded to Wi-Fi 6 - 9to5Mac

At a time when many haven't yet upgraded to Wi-Fi 6, let alone 6e, tech companies are already making plans for Wi-Fi 7...

9to5mac.com

And as I showed just about nobody will.

Actually you didn't.

Up iPhone goes portles you understand every lightning cable will become useless alongside magsafe cables. Becomes nothing else can use it with the exception of a few items.

If iPhone uses USB-C the cable doesn't become useless because everything else can use it. Like your computer or ipdad and camera etc etc.

Again I have no clue what you're saying. Re-read what you wrote and tell me if you understand it.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

Anybody else reading the extensively quoted and divided posts above and wondering if it’s even worth arguing on the internet over a bloody cable? A cable/connector that is still a rumour at this point and isn’t going to affect our lives a great deal if it’s on the next iPhone. Sorry, I just keep opening this thread because it’s in my replied list and I’m losing the will to live despite having lost interest in the topic lol.

 

[bsolar]

"paragraph 19 of the grounds, and judgment of 5 October 1999, C-240/97 Spain v Commission [1999] ECR I-6571, paragraph 99 of the grounds) and Article 119(1) and (3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, which recognises free competition."

Apple can argue lightning is far simpler to use than USB-C, but EU won't let them.

Sorry, but you're wrong here.

As stated already, there is a balance of interests (emphasis mine):

The EU's rules on competition are designed to ensure fair and equal conditions for businesses, while leaving space for innovation, unified standards, and the development of small businesses.

If you want to educate yourself on the standardisation policy in the EU and the relevant legal basis you can start here.

 

[AppliedMicro]

If lightning didn't exist, sure. But there are billions out there in the world. Accelerating the death of billions of perfectly functional cables and accelerating the demand of USB-C cables is actually worse for the environment than just letting a natural death run its course.

The entirety of Apple’s lineup - as sold brand new today - is equipped with Lightning connectors. And rather than being thrown away, they are often handed down to family members or friends even when a person replaces his phone with a new one. Hundreds of millions of Lightning-equipped iPhones will remain in use over the next few years.

Manufacturing, sales and use of Lightning cables will therefore slowly fade out.

 

[Crzyrio]

Everyone have heard it because it's on almost everything.

Perhaps somthing modern? Considering those cables was counterfeits.

Yes every cable is. Cables that aren't verified are quite literally counterfeits if not the "dodgy cables" didn't give it away.

Apple have zero control because the method and chip used for MFI verification was cracked a decade ago.

Perfect world? It's not long ago USB-IF changed the minimum requirements for usb c to USB C cables.

Any cable intentionally not fulfilling the requirements are illegal counterfeits.

I think you are living in a world of ignorance if you think the average person knows what CE is or stands for.


There are cables from giant companies with recognizable names, selling non IF certified cables. Article by NYTimes even recommends one of them lol

The Best USB-C Cables and Adapters

Although USB-C cables look similar, they’re not one-size-fits-all. We have recommendations for every situation.

www.nytimes.com

Any cable intentionally not fulfilling the requirements are illegal counterfeits.

Yes, that is why we want things like IF and MFI. The problem here is, tothe average person Made For IPhone is more recognizable then IF Certification. Ask your non-tech family members if they know what IF is or CE is and if they look for it when they buy a USB Cable. Then ask them if they recognize the Made for iPhone sticker.

Apple is much higher profile then the USB Consoruption, it's just how it is.

 

[bsolar]

I think you are living in a world of ignorance if you think the average person knows what CE is or stands for.

Without a survey how do you know? E.g. a quick Google search finds this 2013 survey in Sweden which puts consumer knowledge of the CE marking at 63%.

If you have some more updated and/or more authoritative research please reference it.

 

[Philip_S]

Electronic marking is already part of the USB Type-C spec.

Yes, I know. I thought the reference to the forum for usb implementers (USB-IF) and connection control chips was heavy handed enough to be an obvious joke

 

[Sophisticatednut]

I think you are living in a world of ignorance if you think the average person knows what CE is or stands for.

Do you have actual data supporting this or do you just make things up in burgerland? As @bsolar provided i seem to live close to reality with the study even being of my country.

There are cables from giant companies with recognizable names, selling non IF certified cables. Article by NYTimes even recommends one of them lol

The Best USB-C Cables and Adapters

Although USB-C cables look similar, they’re not one-size-fits-all. We have recommendations for every situation.

www.nytimes.com

Ther wasn't a singe non usb-if certified usb cable recommended. They recommended a couple of thunderbolt cables(they aren't usb) and they recommended one Samsung cable (Nether usb).

I'm not sure you even understand what I'm saying. A USB-IF cables are allowed to use usb marketing iconography.

This is is a cable using the type c formfactor. And they aren't usb cables ether

Yes, that is why we want things like IF and MFI. The problem here is, tothe average person Made For IPhone is more recognizable then IF Certification. Ask your non-tech family members if they know what IF is or CE is and if they look for it when they buy a USB Cable. Then ask them if they recognize the Made for iPhone sticker.

One very important thing to understand. You can sell usb type cables and lightning type cables without being certified. But you aren't allowed to sell things without a CE marking. The iphone have a CE certificate to be allowed to be sold.

Nobody knows that MFi is important. It just stands for made for iPhone and says nothing. They could as well ask for an iPhone cable.
Now I can guarantee even your grandma recognize usb-if certificate without knowing what it is.

Apple is much higher profile then the USB Consoruption, it's just how it is.

I'm what way are they a higher profile in relation to this discussion?

These aren't MFI certified and completely legal

 

[Sophisticatednut]

I think you are living in a world of ignorance if you think the average person knows what CE is or stands for.

Unless you have data proving that I'm all ears.

Without a survey how do you know? E.g. a quick Google search finds this 2013 survey in Sweden which puts consumer knowledge of the CE marking at 63%.

If you have some more updated and/or more authoritative research please reference it.

There are cables from giant companies with recognizable names, selling non IF certified cables. Article by NYTimes even recommends one of them lol

The Best USB-C Cables and Adapters

Although USB-C cables look similar, they’re not one-size-fits-all. We have recommendations for every situation.

www.nytimes.com

As before this is true for both. Somthing that won't be fixed unless they make it illegal to sell Un certified products that doesn't use their trademarks.

Yes, that is why we want things like IF and MFI. The problem here is, tothe average person Made For IPhone is more recognizable then IF Certification. Ask your non-tech family members if they know what IF is or CE is and if they look for it when they buy a USB Cable. Then ask them if they recognize the Made for iPhone sticker.

Apple is much higher profile then the USB Consoruption, it's just how it is.

So I don't really understand what you are arguing about. We have USB-IF that certifies legitimate USB products. And Apple MFI that certifies legitimate MFI products.

And both allow uncertified products to be sold using their port.

 

[tripsync]

Yes, that is why we want things like IF and MFI. The problem here is, tothe average person Made For IPhone is more recognizable then IF Certification. Ask your non-tech family members if they know what IF is or CE is and if they look for it when they buy a USB Cable. Then ask them if they recognize the Made for iPhone sticker.

Apple is much higher profile then the USB Consoruption, it's just how it is.

Yep and even Google was selling Nexus 6P with a bad USB-C cable.