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European Commission Rules Apple Received Illegal State Aid From Ireland, Owes Billions in Back Taxes

shk718 said:
I guess that's why America left England all those years ago - so we could forge our own destiny. Worked out pretty well for us. :)
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Hmm not so sure about that... You seem to be utterly helpless in any disaster like New Oleans flooding. And now you have a backstabbing two faced liar or a pshycoctic mad man who wants to build giant walls and nuke anyone at wim to choose as the next people to run the country!
 
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Chupa Chupa said:
Totally get there are "central government" statists that support the EU to the death. But my point is there are many who are sick of it because of pedantic rulings like this. You and EU can call it "state aid" but ultimately Ireland was making an economic decision for itself, which frankly, ends up helping all of Europe in the same way Germany's industry does. Clearly, it's a better option than the route Greece took, just spending its own money and then spending other countries money. (Yeah, right Greece is going to pay it all back... ba, hah, hah).

In the U.S. states compete for companies every day with tax incentives -- there is nothing sinister about it, and it often becomes a win for the state, the company, and the federal gov't, especially when a large company like Apple is involved.
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I am Greek/Canadian, residing in Greece, and NO, unfortunately we are never going to be able to return the money, not in cash anyway.
 
usarioclave said:
Uh, this is a rule change, not a criminal act on the part of Apple.

I know it's hard to understand, but I'll put it in football terms. Before, a receiver could catch a ball with only one foot in-bounds. This is like the NFL saying "well, no, both feet have to be in-bounds for a catch" and then changing every game result to comply with that new rule.
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It's not a rule change.

While we may agree or disagree with their conclusion, the EU's position is simply that the deal that was done back then between a corporation and an EU member state fell foul of state aid rules that were already in place back then.
 
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swajames said:
It's not a rule change.

While we may agree or disagree with their conclusion, the EU's position is simply that the deal that was done back then between a corporation and an EU member state fell foul of state aid rules that were already in place back then.
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and back then Apple did not have the massive amounts of cash that the Govt are slathering over like a Roman Feast and Orgy......and guess who's gonna get screwed?
 
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Cineplex said:
Good! I hope it drains the cash reserve enough for them to actually make good products again. If your not sitting on a large pile of cash...you might not be able to risk selling Macs with 3 year old tech in them for a premium. Timmy might actually have to put some thought into product design and not release the same iPhone every year. I really hope the EU sticks it to them.
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Apple will probably double down on whatever it thinks will make it the most money in the future, rather than on products that have already reached their peak. So expect more services, and maybe an autonomous car from Apple, Inc., and thank the EU for "sticking it to them."

Really, if Apple thought that Macs with bleeding-edge specs were the best way to make money going forward, they'd be doing that already.
 
PaulRustad007 said:
How is anyone subsidizing Apple? What is the corporate welfare of which you speak?
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Anyone paying their legal fair share of taxes is subsidizing them.
What is the point of a loop-hole if you are not going to use it? Seriously, if they think it is not fair, change the law; do not go back and demand more money after the fact when it was LEGAL to begin with!!!!!!
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The loophole is not, in fact, legal. That's the whole point of this ruling. It contravenes EU tax laws.
 
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unobtainium said:
Good. End corporate welfare. There is no reason why everyone else should subsidize f****** Apple.

Throw the book at them and send a message. Maybe companies will avoid using tax loopholes in the future.
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A friend of mine used to live in Ireland, and said that the tax deals are really what caused Ireland to move into the modern era. Whether you like that idea or not is irrelevant.

Loopholes are pleb-speak for "tax regulations you don't understand."
 
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shk718 said:
Your logic is odd - when someone benefits someone else looses? so when I buy food do I benefit or lose? I'm confused???????? Are we talking about a free market? I guess not.
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So you just decided to jettison all context for some reason?
If someone cuts a sweet deal with Ireland to pay 2% taxes, and that "someone" happens to be a multi-billion dollar corporation, then someone else is missing a ton of tax revenue. It's called a "loophole" for a reason, and in this case, it is apparently not a legal one.
 
sk1wbw said:
This is why I don't understand why countries remain in the EU. Why should a governing body in another country dictate the tax rates in another country?
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Because those governments have the chances to oppose away regulations or laws in EU parliament, they then have to get a majority of their members to agree and have it changed. Chances are it could all followed now anyway and you'll see a whole new world, which might not be a good one and could mean devastating recession. But who knows.
 
apolloa said:
Hmm not so sure about that... You seem to be utterly helpless in any disaster like New Oleans flooding. And now you have a backstabbing two faced lied or a pshycoctic mad man who wants to build giant walls and nuke anyone at wim to choose as the next people to run the country!
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really? really? I'll take the high road here - yes we have a democratic system where people of differing views can run for office - a system that, in the end, usually weeds out the over-the-top radicals. A system that allows for freedom of thought and innovation. Mind you, we've never elected someone who started a world war. We step up to the plate and offer assistance to countries facing natural disasters and never ask for help when we face one ourselves. A country whose citizens have never once laughed at another country facing a natural disaster.
 
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coldsweat said:
No idea what you're talking about - can you clarify to us europeans your 'Football terms' please ??

Whats a receiver - is that like a goalkeeper?
What's 'one foot in-bounds' - is that the offside rule?

Sorry couldn't resist! :D
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Hah!

In european football it would be like allowing the goalie to use their hands inside the box, then saying that no, that was incorrect, all instances of the goalie using their hands would be penalized, and all the previous game results would be adjusted. Except of course in soccer it's difficult to post-adjust things because of the nature of the beast. In the accounting world it's easy, as long as the records still exist.

The situation is a bit more complicated, because only some teams could use their hands and some teams couldn't...although everyone agreed that was OK at some point.
 
usarioclave said:
A friend of mine used to live in Ireland, and said that the tax deals are really what caused Ireland to move into the modern era. Whether you like that idea or not is irrelevant.

Loopholes are pleb-speak for "tax regulations you don't understand."
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So Ireland moved into the modern era by creating a tax haven for corporations that are actually based elsewhere? So essentially Ireland siphoned legal and fair tax revenues away from other countries in order to "move into the modern era"?
I guess Ireland can leave the EU if it doesn't want to deal with EU tax laws. Otherwise, they (and Apple) will have to deal with this situation.
 
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EU collecting on these taxes does this mean US cannot then claim this income as taxable to the US? Is this the real rub?
 
unobtainium said:
So you just decided to jettison all context for some reason?
If someone cuts a sweet deal with Ireland to pay 2% taxes, and that "someone" happens to be a multi-billion dollar corporation, then someone else is missing a ton of tax revenue. It's called a "loophole" for a reason, and in this case, it is apparently not a legal one.
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They "cut a deal" with a country that did not need to be chosen as a tax base. A country that, had no deal been "cut", would not have received a dime of said money.
 
shk718 said:
really? really? I'll take the high road here - yes we have a democratic system where people of differing views can run for office - a system that, in the end, usually weeds out the over-the-top radicals. A system that allows for freedom of thought and innovation. We've never elected someone who started a world war. We step up to the plate and offer assistance to countries facing natural disasters and never ask for help when we have one.
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Haha I think you have NO idea about the EU and it's member states and how they work, it's not a frigging dictatorship and the UK has never voted a leader who started a war. I could do on about Americas poor history but probably best for another thread. It's certainly built on capitalism and shoot first ask questions later that's for sure.
 
groovyd said:
EU collecting on these taxes does this mean US cannot then claim this income as taxable to the US? Is this the real rub?
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American companies get tax credits in the US for taxes paid elsewhere, so the US Government wants to grab all the money.
 
shk718 said:
really? really? I'll take the high road here - yes we have a democratic system where people of differing views can run for office - a system that, in the end, usually weeds out the over-the-top radicals. A system that allows for freedom of thought and innovation. We've never elected someone who started a world war. We step up to the plate and offer assistance to countries facing natural disasters and never ask for help when we have one.
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The EU does not tax companies. Individual countries tax companies. What the Eu does is to ensure a fair playing field and make sure that individual countries treat all companies in the same way and that one country does not set up sweetheart deal at the expense of others. Apple is not the only company to have suffered this fate and they will not be the last and while many of these companies are American not all of them are.
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cube said:
American companies get tax credits in the US for taxes paid elsewhere, so the US Government wants to grab all the money.
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But only if they repatriate the profits since Apple keep all their profits overseas they never pay US taxes on it anyway. This will just make a small dent in the Billions they keep offshore.
 
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swajames said:
It's not a rule change.

While we may agree or disagree with their conclusion, the EU's position is simply that the deal that was done back then between a corporation and an EU member state fell foul of state aid rules that were already in place back then.
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I suppose I have to read the ruling, which hopefully has enough references for a non-eu follower to understand.

If they really were against the rules, why did it take the EU this long to rule on the deals? And again, how will this affect other "ad-hoc" deals, if that's indeed how the commission categorized Apple's tax deals.

In the US that would be a difficult ruling to uphold, especially since the double irish has been around for so long. Did the EU commission basically say "oh that thing that's been common for 20 years was actually illegal?" After all, they bothered to regulate everything else, like beer, cheese, and chocolate. They somehow overlooked the tax laws? And yeah, those were done by a different department, but still.
 
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