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ADD: what technologies: A quick search on google - didn't mention specific technologies - but the requirement to: [url said:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/05/18/ms_antitrust_compliance_extension/[/url]

Try more searching for yourself - i used: "license technology microsoft anti trust"

I imagine Samba related technologies / API would be one of them.

You're right, but in what circunstances? Microsoft was crippling or difficulting other software companies to make software to an operating system (Windows) proprietary to Microsoft... There was no real or potential alternative to other players in that market to enter and develop software. In the case of Apple they are not difficulting or crippling, they say there is no deal, and that there are other options (WMA DRM) that you can implement to enter this market... And the competiton can always use mp3 or AAC unDRM'ed format to sell music to iPod. Still I don't understand how any court would in the present market of music force Apple to license it's DRM technology to it's competitors... We'll have to wait and see...
 
Norway's "forbrukereombudet" is stating that the music service iTunes is illegal, because the music that is bought from them only can be played with Apples own iPods and not with other brands.

The little I know about law, something is "illegal" when it violates a written law. Does Swedish law actual say "thou shalt not sell two products that are proprietarily coupled"? As far as the legislative body should be concerned, these are consumer products.

The ink cartridges for my Canon printer only work in a Canon printer.

The Gillette blades only work in my Gillette razor.

In Apple's case, both product (iPod and songs) actually have value themselves.
 
And where did you learn this from? I searched for portable digital media players on Amazon.com. 174 products. How many support AAC? 5. Four iPods and the Zune.

AAC clearly doesn't have to be supported in hardware on the device. Software solutions transcode DRM-less AAC to a supported format prior to synchronisation in the same way that an iPod 'supports' WMA after iTunes transcodes it.

Of course, the fly in the ointment is DRM -- stopping me from doing that when I replace my iPod with a Zune or Apple drop out of the digital music player game.

DRM is an annoyance for consumers and a handy revenue lock-in for the companies that enforce it, whether its delivered with full transparency or not.

Only governments have the power to address the imbalance, and I applaud the Europeans leading the charge for the consumer. Whether a ban on FairPlay is legally permissible or not remains to be seen, but the fact is its the *right* thing to do for the consumer.
 
And where did you learn this from? I searched for portable digital media players on Amazon.com. 174 products. How many support AAC? 5. Four iPods and the Zune.

A lot of cell phones support AAC ( non-drm of course ).
 
And where did you learn this from? I searched for portable digital media players on Amazon.com. 174 products. How many support AAC? 5. Four iPods and the Zune.

Sorry for that -- it was an exaggeration on my part.

Here's a more conservative list:
-Zune
-Various iPods.
-PSP*
-Kenwood car stereos connected to Mass Storage class USB devices.
-SanDisk Sansa e200R
-All PalmOS 5 handhelds*
-All Windows Mobile handhelds*
-A*, E*, and S series Sony Network Walkmans
-A growing selection of phones

*Manufacturer supported firmware update and/or additional software may be required.
 
And where did you learn this from? I searched for portable digital media players on Amazon.com. 174 products. How many support AAC? 5. Four iPods and the Zune.

Make that 7, the PSP and Archos 504 ( they are only ones I could be bothered to go and look at ).

Admittedly, not all players will play AAC/MP4, but it's more than 5.
 
What a thread! I normally don't really get involved in forum discussions but I appreciate the fact that on this forum, a lot of people really make an effort to make an educated and well thought out point.

Here are my two cents. First of all, I am a producer myself and a number of my tracks have been available on vinyl, CD and as digital mp3's for a number of years. So I do think I have some experience in today's music market.

It's impossible to deny that the market for CD's and vinyls (especially the latter) isn't doing well. This has obviously been a hot item for myself and a lot of my friends who are also artists. After all, it is our source of income (well, partly for me as I'm also a full-time student).
Anyway, sales have been dropping like bricks and it's looking worse every day. I'm talking about the electronic dance music scene right now, and I'm not too knowledgeable about the other genres, but I'm quite sure it's the same way with those.

The problem, in my humble opinion, is the music labels. For years, they refused to acknowledge mp3 as a viable means of distributing music and tried to fight it. But how? Lawsuits etc... It almost turned into a fight between the person listening to the music, and the company responsible for bringing it to listeners. That can't be a good thing obviously.

Anyway, the average Joe just read news reports about big lawsuits etc. but they really didn't care. They had two ways of buying music:

1) just downloading it
2) buying CD's, which are, imo, extremely expensive

Whether it's right or wrong for them to do so, most people just chose to download... Not because they are thieves, but because there was absolutely NO comparison in convenience and cost.
I think the music labels made a critical mistake here. Instead of offering legal downloads the MINUTE the mp3 format became such a huge hit, most labels just tried to stop it... Which is a lost cause, and I think most people knew that years ago. I think that music labels could have done a much better job of going with the flow, instead of trying to stop it.

Now, suddenly, because the consumer punished them for refusing to go with the times, every label has legal mp3's. And new, small digital dancelabels pop up every day. But, although legal mp3 as a phenomenon is growing rapidly, the profits for labels are nowhere NEAR what they used to be (before mp3's). But I'll get back to that in a minute.

The problem is... People, by now, have gotten used to downloading the things for free. It's a LOT harder to suddenly convince people to start paying for mp3's, than it would have been to offer legal mp3's to them basically as soon as the format was invented. (I think so, anyway)
So, now music labels have legal mp3's, and what do they do? They invent a thing called DRM. What this is, to me, is simple greed... The fact of the matter is, like I just said, mp3 sales so far aren't that profitable... So, music labels, and stores, try to make more money out of it by trying to control as big a share of the market as they can with DRM's.

Is this legal? I guess so. And, the music labels and distributors lost a lot of money to an illegal practice - it is not unreasonable for them to want to win it back. But is it a good idea to try and get the lost money back from consumers in a different way? Well... I'm not so sure. I really think that labels, as a group, have a lot of catching up to do. They messed up when mp3's were invented, in my opinion. If they want to make good on that, I think it would be best to offer the consumer as much as possible.

I think, that Apple really made a fantastic system with iTunes + iPod. It's the biggest distributor of mp3's at the moment, so kudos to them for making it work. I love Apple, I own an iPod and an MBP.

Like I said, I am a music producer and a DJ, and as such, pretty well-versed in the different file types that are available. Yet, I honestly hadn't a clue that iTunes tracks only worked with an iPod. I never assumed it would be like that. The same goes for a friend of mine, a respected DJ in America, who downloaded tracks from iTunes only to find they were useless in her CD decks.

Whose fault is this? Well, technically, it's mine. I 'should' have read the fine print. But the point I'm trying to make, is that as much as I respect all of you saying "nobody is forcing you to buy an iPod", I think - this is EXACTLY the reason why Apple should be damn glad that people are buying them.

Nobody is forcing us to spend extra money on legal mp3's and iPods but the things are selling like hotcakes. The music scene is finally catching up to mp3's and I think Apple is doing an amazing job at this. But, like I said, music profits on a bigger scale are still going down, and I just don't think that in the long run, DRM's are helping anyone.

In the end, I don't think that governments should get involved in company's business per sé, and I think it should ultimately be Apple's choice. But I applaud any effort to make them, and all other distributors, reconsider (without making a lawsuit out of it... that won't help anyone).

Like someone posted before, right now there is a mass of DRM's out there, and personally, I STILL find it a big chore to just download a damn song and make it work left, right and center, the way you can with illegal networks. I am fully convinced that legal systems can beat the crap out of illegal ones... Provided companies are willing to meet the consumer halfway and provide the best user experience they can.

To anyone still reading this, cheers, thanks for your time :D I hope this post made some sense. I'm not really interested in getting into heated debates about this, especially "my country vs. yours". But I'd love to hear if anyone agrees or disagrees with me.

Cheers chaps,

Thomas
 
Thomas: You can burn the music that you bought at iTS on a CD and play it in any cd player that you want... And it's completely legal, contrary to some opinions here.

As of the DRM issue I think that the market will evolve to a unDRM'ed solution but that will only happen if the Music Industry Companies want it...
 
Thomas: You can burn the music that you bought at iTS on a CD and play it in any cd player that you want... And it's completely legal, contrary to some opinions here.

As of the DRM issue I think that the market will evolve to a unDRM'ed solution but that will only happen if the Music Industry Companies want it...

That's great about being able to burn it - but it is still an extra step! Not a huge deal, but all those file formats... To me, they are just not as attractive as a simple mp3.

About your second statement - that is exactly my point - it will only happen if they choose to make it happen. I think that would be a good decision, although I'm not a business major, and I hope it happens.
 
Thomas: You can burn the music that you bought at iTS on a CD and play it in any cd player that you want... And it's completely legal, contrary to some opinions here.

As of the DRM issue I think that the market will evolve to a unDRM'ed solution but that will only happen if the Music Industry Companies want it...

But the recording labels are on-side in terms of interoperability.

This is the key issue here! Interoperability doesn't mean getting rid of DRM. It means a formal agreement amongst all levels of the supply chain to use the same DRM scheme, no matter what distribution channel a consumer chooses to go through.
 
But the recording labels are on-side in terms of interoperability.

This is the key issue here! Interoperability doesn't mean getting rid of DRM. It means a formal agreement amongst all levels of the supply chain to use the same DRM scheme, no matter what distribution channel a consumer chooses to go through.

That's impossible in my opinion, this is a situation of all or nothing... No way the different DRM proprietary companies will willingly bow down to another competitor. IMO the only solution is get rid of DRM, period, but to all companies and online music sellers, not to target the "biggest" one just to make a point... The ball is in the Music Industry now
 
What if you're using Windows and a Zune. You buy $1000 worth of music on Microsofts music store. Then a year later you want to switch to Mac and kill your Windows PC crap. But you know you can't, because you'd have to spend $1000 on the same music all again. And that would make your iBook cost $2099! So you're forced to buy a new crappy Dell instead, with the extremely bad OS Windows Vista! Can you honestly say that this is how it should be??

I know that situations sucks, but it is a reality. How many people out there use a program like Photoshop or Avid or After Effects and need to rebuy the software when they switch from a Mac to a PC or vice-versa? It's not fun, but that's the way it is sometimes whether it's in the comuter realm or something like switching from an XBOX to a PS2 or a VCR to a DVD player.

P-Worm
 
There are valid points to both sides of this argument, but in my opinion:

Apple spent the time, effort, and $$$ to create iTunes/iTunes Store, and I really see no reason why someone else should essentially be able to essentially freeload upon this just to be more "consumer friendly". As it is with many of the Apple products, it "just works", mainly because Apple maintains a level of control for their products, and likely wish to keep it that way.

In a perfect world, everything would be "free" in a sense, but too many people have their "rose-colored" glass on, and need to wake up to the reality around them. There seems to be numerous complains in this thread about individuals who have purchased iTunes music and expect it to work outside that enviornment... stop kidding yourself. You used iTunes, you purchased the songs, and you likely owned an iPod to play them on. If you were unhappy with this arrangement, then you only have yourself to blame.

"But, But, I want to play my iTunes files on other players". I would be interested in knowning how many people who have made this whiny remark, also own digital media players that also play AAC content? "But, But, new phones can play it". Was it then your intention to see into the future and purchase iTunes songs for a phone that likely wasn't released yet? If you didn't have a AAC capable player, then what exactly are you complaining about? In such a case you would have to transcode the music period, and essentially iTunes lets you do this with protected content. Remember transcoding lossy->anything is still lossy... you lose regardless if it was protected by FairPlay.

In the end this is not an Apple problem, it is a consumer problem. I own multiple iPods, Macs, and yet whether or not iTunes files are protected or not makes absolutely no difference to me. Why? I've never purchased a song from iTunes, and likely will not feel the need to so in the future. I excercised my right decide if I wanted to be locked into content or not, and you should do the same.

Whats next, Apple will be sued because it will not license MacOSX to other Intel based manufacturers?

-----
Domain
 
There are valid points to both sides of this argument, but in my opinion:

Apple spent the time, effort, and $$$ to create iTunes/iTunes Store, and I really see no reason why someone else should essentially be able to essentially freeload upon this just to be more "consumer friendly". As it is with many of the Apple products, it "just works", mainly because Apple maintains a level of control for their products, and likely wish to keep it that way.

In a perfect world, everything would be "free" in a sense, but too many people have their "rose-colored" glass on, and need to wake up to the reality around them. There seems to be numerous complains in this thread about individuals who have purchased iTunes music and expect it to work outside that enviornment... stop kidding yourself. You used iTunes, you purchased the songs, and you likely owned an iPod to play them on. If you were unhappy with this arrangement, then you only have yourself to blame.

"But, But, I want to play my iTunes files on other players". I would be interested in knowning how many people who have made this whiny remark, also own digital media players that also play AAC content? "But, But, new phones can play it". Was it then your intention to see into the future and purchase iTunes songs for a phone that likely wasn't released yet? If you didn't have a AAC capable player, then what exactly are you complaining about? In such a case you would have to transcode the music period, and essentially iTunes lets you do this with protected content. Remember transcoding lossy->anything is still lossy... you lose regardless if it was protected by FairPlay.

In the end this is not an Apple problem, it is a consumer problem. I own multiple iPods, Macs, and yet whether or not iTunes files are protected or not makes absolutely no difference to me. Why? I've never purchased a song from iTunes, and likely will not feel the need to so in the future. I excercised my right decide if I wanted to be locked into content or not, and you should do the same.

Whats next, Apple will be sued because it will not license MacOSX to other Intel based manufacturers?

-----
Domain

It's nice to know i wasn't a lone crusader on this thread! Thanks domain....
 
"But, But, I want to play my iTunes files on other players". I would be interested in knowning how many people who have made this whiny remark

Personally I don't find this remark so whiny. The point is, people can choose between illegal downloads and a cheap mp3 player, or buying an iPod and iTunes mp3's. This is just the reality of the situation, even if it's not all legal.

I am (pleasantly) surprised that so many people opt to buy an iPod and download legal music. That's really great. But I am not surprised that many of them gripe about the music they download only working with their iPods and iTunes. Personally I just don't like jumping through hoops to get files to play. I want my downloaded songs to play in whatever music related app or device I have... And I really don't think this is asking for too much. I'm well aware that iPod offers great functionality, but - I would still think that companies can, and should, offer even more, to gain even more ground on illegal mp3's - a phenomenon that can only be conquered (I think) if labels/distributors start working together more, instead of trying to make the most profit individually. (but, alas, that might be a bit of a utopia...) If you're happy with things the way they are, more power to you - me, I think there is still room for improvement in our DRM-ridden world :D
 
Personally I don't find this remark so whiny. The point is, people can choose between illegal downloads and a cheap mp3 player, or buying an iPod and iTunes mp3's. This is just the reality of the situation, even if it's not all legal.

You really missed my point alltogether. You can just as easily choose to go out and purchase a CD, use *insert name here* (even iTunes!) software to extract/convert it to your format of choice, and go on about your buisness. If the only choices available were: 1) Buy iTunes or 2) Download Illegally, then my opinion would be drastically different.

-----
Domain
 
Personally I don't find this remark so whiny. The point is, people can choose between illegal downloads and a cheap mp3 player, or buying an iPod and iTunes mp3's. This is just the reality of the situation, even if it's not all legal.

I am (pleasantly) surprised that so many people opt to buy an iPod and download legal music. That's really great. But I am not surprised that many of them gripe about the music they download only working with their iPods and iTunes. Personally I just don't like jumping through hoops to get files to play. I want my downloaded songs to play in whatever music related app or device I have... And I really don't think this is asking for too much. I'm well aware that iPod offers great functionality, but - I would still think that companies can, and should, offer even more, to gain even more ground on illegal mp3's - a phenomenon that can only be conquered (I think) if labels/distributors start working together more, instead of trying to make the most profit individually. (but, alas, that might be a bit of a utopia...) If you're happy with things the way they are, more power to you - me, I think there is still room for improvement in our DRM-ridden world :D

Another Scandinavian moaning that they have to use iTMS content with iPods....thinks we cleared up the fact you have many other OPEN options pages ago!
 
You really missed my point alltogether. You can just as easily choose to go out and purchase a CD, use *insert name here* (even iTunes!) software to extract/convert it to your format of choice, and go on about your buisness. If the only choices available were: 1) Buy iTunes or 2) Download Illegally, then my opinion would be drastically different.

-----
Domain

MY point, on the other hand, is that buying a CD, using iTunes software to extract and export files to different formats, burning etc (like you just described)... Is nowhere near as simple as it could be. And although to you personally, this probably isn't a big deal, I think a lot of people just can't be bothered with 'extracting', ripping, burning, etc. So, I disagree with you in that you can "just as easily" do this and that - I think that illegal downloads are still the easiest way of doing things, and I think iTunes is a close second - but it still has the problem of compatibility attached to it. I'm all on your side - I'm all for people buying music legally... Hell my music is out there, for sale. So don't get me wrong. I just think that DRM's, in the long run, are hurting things rather than helping them.
 
As of the DRM issue I think that the market will evolve to a unDRM'ed solution but that will only happen if the Music Industry Companies want it...
imho Music Industry Companies are not able to decide what is going to happen next (they stopped quite a few years ago). And I'm really happy with that.

Kudos to ThomasJB for your post. I agree with your opinions.;)
 
Another Scandinavian moaning that they have to use iTMS content with iPods....thinks we cleared up the fact you have many other OPEN options pages ago!

Scandinavian? :rolleyes: You might want to grab an atlas mate. Anyway this is exactly the sort of thing I DON'T want to get into so I'll leave this thread for now - peace!
 
Quite clearly it is an Apple problem. The complaints are against them ( since they are the most popular online music store ) , and they are the ones who are going to have to address the problems and help present solutions ( hopefully - that would be co-operating constructively).


In the end this is not an Apple problem, it is a consumer problem.
Domain
 
MY point, on the other hand, is that buying a CD, using iTunes software to extract and export files to different formats, burning etc (like you just described)... Is nowhere near as simple as it could be. And although to you personally, this probably isn't a big deal, I think a lot of people just can't be bothered with 'extracting', ripping, burning, etc. So, I disagree with you in that you can "just as easily" do this and that - I think that illegal downloads are still the easiest way of doing things, and I think iTunes is a close second - but it still has the problem of compatibility attached to it. I'm all on your side - I'm all for people buying music legally... Hell my music is out there, for sale. So don't get me wrong. I just think that DRM's, in the long run, are hurting things rather than helping them.

I definately see what you are saying, and it very well may be the case, as I think extracting a CD is far easier then trying to navigate through the iTunes store trying to find what I am looking for. Don't get me wrong either, I dislike DRM, i've actually previously turned down a potentially important career opportunity because the entitiy in question was involved in developing DRM technologies. On the other hand, I don't see why Apple should be faulted for creating a system to support their own media players.

Would I like additional choices when purchasing music? Yes indeed. It seems most people grimace at the $12 to $15 that a CD would cost, yet on average I spent $30+ to obtain the imports that I want to listen to... Its certainly not the best of situations, but given the alternatives it is what I have decided to be the best choice, and I can't fault anyone but myself if it seems like a poor decision in retrospect.
 
I fail to see why anyone would be against Apple opening up iTunes music to be playable on other devices. You can still use your iPod as well as any other device you see fit.

Apple would still sell songs via iTunes, and people would still purhcase iPods because of the status they carry.

If anything was to change, it would be that Apple would sell more downloads via the store.

While there are alternatvies, the DRMless ones are a real pain to use.
 
imho Music Industry Companies are not able to decide what is going to happen next (they stopped quite a few years ago). And I'm really happy with that.

Kudos to ThomasJB for your post. I agree with your opinions.;)

Market wise (not including here piracy) the music industry has always the last word, and it has full control on what happens next in this business. After all they own the music... (I'm not saying that this is good or bad it just is)
 
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