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But what would they switch to that is better or meaningfully different?
There is one major player out there, whose policies and worldview are quite different from Apple's. There are also a number of smaller players. All that it takes for one of those smaller players to become a major player is for a few million people to collectively decide to switch. Blackberry had a huge corner of the business market locked up - until it didn't, because enough users decided they wanted to switch to something new.

That's not making the EU's case. Also, I recall someone making the point a while back that the EU didn't seem nearly as concerned about companies controlling too much of the market, back when several European companies had enormous chunks of the phone market.
 
The larger point is that they've apparently never been charging appropriate developer costs to reflect the value of what they were offering (according to them I mean)

It's a disservice to all sides when sub market rates are charged to get you hooked into an ecosystem (to Apple's enormous benefit), as opposed to a more clear and fair for both sides arrangement up front
It's all a question of how you structure the pricing, so you get back a sustainable return on the service offered. Apple could have chosen, say, "no commission on apps in the store, but you have to pay a $100,000 fee for the developer kit, to support ongoing API and store maintenance costs", but that would have locked out millions of smaller developers from participating. There could have been a variety of other payment schemes as well.

(I worked for a company once where they charged a modest amount for the software itself, but with a necessary support contract, and a lot of clients wanted to buy 50 or 100 copies of the software, but only pay for support on one copy - where, all the support needed throughout the whole company, any problem experienced, would "conveniently" be with that one supported copy of the software. Yeah, that was a bit of a struggle. Pricing schemes are difficult to get right, in a way that lets all customers small and large get treated fairly, without someone gaming the system.)

Apple chose the commission approach, for better or worse, and made it apply to everything, because they could reasonably foresee that if, say, they charged a commission on app sales, but allowed 3rd party payment systems, then every single app in the store would have been "free to download (then pay us $10 on our website)", and Apple wouldn't have made enough back to cover expenses, much less any sort of profit.

I think Apple's commission prices are a bit too high, and I think they should have made allowances for things like emulators (and Microsoft's cloud gaming thing? and such), but that's Apple's decision, not mine.
 
Um. Have you surveyed them all?
No. But given alternative stores are also-rans on Androids, even when backed by industry behemoths like Samsung and Amazon, suggest most consumers prefer shopping at one store. I’d assume this is even more the case for Apple, who has made its closed, “walled garden” approach a selling point, and Android manufacturers actually used to run advertisements about as a negative.

The vocal minority on MacRumors is almost certainly that, a vocal minority of “power users”.
 
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All that it takes for one of those smaller players to become a major player is for a few million people to collectively decide to switch.

And it never happens because people use so many different kinds of Apps (on iOS or Android) that folks are functionally stuck with those two choices, as the sacrifices to not use one of those two are enormous, and usually fully untenable when it comes to various work/business needs

I know everyone seem to think "folks can just switch", but it's actually got a ton of real life friction to it for it to be an honestly viable alternative for many
 
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No. But given alternative stores are also-rans on Androids, even when backed by industry behemoths like Samsung and Amazon, suggest most consumers prefer shopping at one store.

Which is why having third party stores, or even side-loading with notarization, is really no big deal

People can keep using the first party all in one store to their hearts content -- almost everyone will it sounds like

If someone wants to undercut Apple on pricing or business terms in this arrangement, Apple can compete to keep the customer (I mean on the Dev side mainly)
 
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Which is why having third party stores, or even side-loading with notarization, is really no big deal

People can keep using the first party all in one store to their hearts content -- almost everyone will it sounds like

If someone wants to undercut Apple on pricing or business terms in this arrangement, Apple can compete to keep the customer (I mean on the Dev side mainly)
I actually mostly agree with this take, although I remain strongly philosophically opposed to forcing Apple to allow third party stores absent a monopoly on their part (or Google closing off as well).

I do, however, worry about “exclusivity” agreements becoming the norm, and the majority who want to stay in the walled garden won’t be able to.
 
Which is why having third party stores, or even side-loading with notarization, is really no big deal

People can keep using the first party all in one store to their hearts content -- almost everyone will it sounds like
The one problem with the "third party stores won't bother people who don't use them in the slightest" argument is, there is the possibility that some apps will move to some third party store exclusively - say Facebook, Uber, and TikTok move to some third party store that, say, allows them to do creepy amounts of data collection without declaring that (like the labels we now have on the main App Store). And then they pull out of Apple's App Store, so that they can maximize their creepy data collection (or some other reason). And then anyone who wants to use those very popular apps is obligated to install that third party App Store.

I'm not saying we shouldn't have third party stores, just that the assertion that they will have no effect whatsoever on anyone who doesn't want to use them... doesn't hold up. If some major apps move, people will be faced with either ditching those apps or installing other app stores.
 
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The one problem with the "third party stores won't bother people who don't use them in the slightest" argument is, there is the possibility that some apps will move to some third party store exclusively - say Facebook, Uber, and TikTok move to some third party store that, say, allows them to do creepy amounts of data collection without declaring that (like the labels we now have on the main App Store). And then they pull out of Apple's App Store, so that they can maximize their creepy data collection (or some other reason). And then anyone who wants to use those very popular apps is obligated to install that third party App Store.

I'm not saying we shouldn't have third party stores, just that the assertion that they will have no effect whatsoever on anyone who doesn't want to use them... doesn't hold up. If some major apps move, people will be faced with either ditching those apps or installing other app stores.

Fair concerns -- I would just add though, that those creepy companies already have their own services and servers and are getting basically all manner of creepy data already

Yeah, it can get worse -- anything can, no question

But I suspect they'd find it not worth the extra hassle and expense

As one example, why has that not really happened on Android with a massively resourced company like Meta?
Think of the force they could exert to get FB and Instagram users on their own Android store -- but they don't?

Android phones aren't as locked down as iPhones, but they are still with built in protections on many fronts and yet Meta still doesn't go to the expense and hassle to "force" users only onto their store

I honestly think we are treading close to a FUD line to some extent here

There has to be a business case for anyone to incur the friction on customers and expense to even bother and other than really huge players, who again aren't doing it now, it's hard to see that being a massive issue honestly

I get my Meta and Microsoft exposure on my Mac, totally "exposed", directly from them right now ... and it's ... "fine"?
 
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And it never happens because people use so many different kinds of Apps (on iOS or Android) that folks are functionally stuck with those two choices, as the sacrifices to not use one of those two are enormous, and usually fully untenable when it comes to various work/business needs
Yes, there is friction involved. I don't recall ever asserting that switching is easy.

But, a lot of the apps people want to use (like for social media sites, shopping, services, etc.) are essentially front-ends to websites (reinforced by how many of those "apps" don't have Mac apps, they just have you use their website). If someone was determined to switch, there are a number of choices out there that could be made to work. And if more people climbed onto those lifeboats, they could improve over time.

But the original thread of this bit of conversation was the suggestion that Apple might face a "moral outrage" backlash if they allowed porn apps (and the change would make a huge media splash "APPLE CHANGES RULES TO ALLOW PORN NOW" - "Apple wants your kids to watch porn!!1!" - "Apple is evil and immoral" - that would be a bigger splash than if they had just been allowed all along - the people who want things to get outraged over would eat that up for years on end). And the people who would get outraged by that and want to switch away from Apple... would not be inclined to look at the situation rationally and say, "you know, Google has had more access to porn for much longer than Apple" - nope, they'd cheerfully switch to Google to teach that immoral Apple a lesson, because rational thought was never really part of the process - outrage was the main goal. And that kind of outrage can hurt company's bottom lines.
 
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And it never happens because people use so many different kinds of Apps (on iOS or Android) that folks are functionally stuck with those two choices, as the sacrifices to not use one of those two are enormous, and usually fully untenable when it comes to various work/business needs

I know everyone seem to think "folks can just switch", but it's actually got a ton of real life friction to it for it to be an honestly viable alternative for many
This is such a baseless argument at this point. It’s only an opinion or anecdotal that people won’t switch because it’s “difficult”.

Anecdotally i won’t switch because I feel iOS suits me better than android. Just like the car I drive suits me better than a civic.
 
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What kids are doing with devices is the purview of their parents, not Apple

Except that it makes it even harder for parents to be able to have purview when apps can display any content, even intentionally hide it until closer inspection. Apple looked for this type of thing and stopped almost all of them. This now puts the burden on the parents to click through every part of an app to verify it doesn't contain materials they don't want their kid to interact with because the stores have no boundaries. It is naive to put it on the parents, most parents are tech savvy enough to even know where to begin on this stuff. In a perfect world if the parents were presented good information to make decisions on, I agree with you, but we don't live in that world.
 
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You're mixing up the responsible parties here ... nobody is saying "give unrestricted porn to kids"

The issue is that Apple is not the party that should be getting involved here

Apple becomes responsible when they build a platform and intentionally market and sell to the whole family. I agree that Apple should block adults from content, and could build better tools to allow or disallow content for minors. They haven't made that choice though and so by opening things up this way it does create an issue for parents and minors.
 
Hate to break it to you, but you can use a computer to install AltStore on an iPhone in any region.

View attachment 2478764

I'm in the US and have AltStore for uYouPlus.
Yeah.....I mean I guess in a weird way this is true, but not really. This is not using an alternative App Store as much as it is using a very jankly work-around for basically using developer preview apps. Not to mention, worse than that, unlike something like TestFlight, you actually have to give these people your Apple ID login information. YIKES!! This is like 100x worse than just being in the EU and being able to add a new App Store!!
 
Tim is a never-nude apparently. I don't understand why adult apps are unavailable on iPhone.

I wouldn't download one, but millions would.
Not the proudest 30% App Store Fee, to be honest, especially if it were (spoiler: it would) of the top grossing.
 
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