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lol

Maybe then you should start your own forum....."The Sophisticated Gentlemen's Club Of Elite Upper Echelon Victorian Mac Users In Regards To Rumors"

Just because a few of you fell out of an episode of The Crown doesn't mean we are all going to act high society.

I think you have misunderstood - completely - the point I am trying to make.

In any case, I am not presenting an argument for the introduction of something resembling what you have termed "high society", rather, I am merely making a plea for basic courtesy when seeking to communicate with someone.

Moreover, it is perfectly possible to disagree, dissent, debate, discuss and dispute with someone without recourse to offensive language.

Well, that could easily apply in the same manner the other way around too.

Indeed.

And it could offer an interesting intellectual challenge to try to come up with an appropriate name for such a venue.

While I think having verbal etiquette can be good in situations, I can also understand the need for vulgarity.

The biggest problem is that those who don't agree with the other side will always chide said side.

Instead of just accepting that everyone has a different idea of formality, they were raised in a different culture, their lifestyle encompasses different elements than your own, You seek to belittle or look down upon them vigorously.

If you do not like something that is fine. It is absolutely your right. However, being intolerant of a person because they curse or because they refuse to is outrageously intolerant.

Stop with the mummers farce.

Again, @Septembersrain - this is not "a mummer's farce", although it is perfectly possible that it may be a dialogue of the deaf.

My argument is that there is no reason on earth to want to use coarse, crude, insulting and offensive language online - ever.

There was a time when the use of such speech (and it did not usually appear in writing) was confined to the sort of private spaces where it was accepted that people needed to relax - and possibly vent - away from more formal settings. Pubs, sports grounds, were obvious settings.

However, to permit the use of this form of speech is to allow it, and to send the message forum wide that it is perfectly acceptable to use - and to want to use - abusive and insulting language when expressing yourself in an online environment.

This person gets it!
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That's even funnier! You think I am attacking this person for being a literacy superstar and ignoring their point because of that. Nice.

Maybe you just can't handle the fact that I DONT AGREE WITH THEM! That's it. It has nothing to do with the presentation. I don't care if their point is in Shakespearean English or American Ebonics. I DONT AGREE.

Everyone is a victim here! Can't convince people to agree so we have to make ourselves the victim of some injustice. That explains a lot on this forum and the state of the world.

While I think - yet again - that you misunderstand my arguments - yes, it is clear that we disagree - fundamentally - on this matter.

This is not a case of "victimhood" but rather, is simply case of showing respect and courtesy.

Now, it is entirely possible that I don't "get" the sort of "culture" - especially American culture - I'm not from the society, - that thinks the free exchange of opinion should include the right to swear, and use crude and coarse language in an insulting and offensive manner when trying to make an argument.
 
I think you have misunderstood - completely - the point I am trying to make.

In any case, I am not presenting an argument for the introduction of something resembling what you have termed "high society", rather, I am merely making a plea for basic courtesy when seeking to communicate with someone.

Moreover, it is perfectly possible to disagree, dissent, debate, discuss and dispute with someone without recourse to offensive language.



Indeed.

And it could offer an interesting intellectual challenge to try to come up with an appropriate name for such a venue.



Again, @Septembersrain - this is not "a mummer's farce", although it is perfectly possible that it may be a dialogue of the deaf.

My argument is that there is no reason on earth to want to use coarse, crude, insulting and offensive language online - ever.

There was a time when the use of such speech (and it did not usually appear in writing) was confined to the sort of private spaces where it was accepted that people needed to relax - and possibly vent - away from more formal settings. Pubs, sports grounds, were obvious settings.

However, to permit the use of this form of speech is to allow it, and to send the message forum wide that it is perfectly acceptable to use - and to want to use - abusive and insulting language when expressing yourself in an online environment.



While I think - yet again - that you misunderstand my arguments - yes, it is clear that we disagree - fundamentally - on this matter.

This is not a case of "victimhood" but rather, is simply case of showing respect and courtesy.

Now, it is entirely possible that I don't "get" the sort of "culture" - especially American culture - I'm not from the society, - that thinks the free exchange of opinion should include the right to swear, and use crude and coarse language in an insulting and offensive manner when trying to make an argument.

It's not a bad thing to not get it. There are many things I don't quite comprehend either. It's just that live and let live should be the motto. If I were to try to silence everyone who had a variation from what I deem normal, I'd be spending an insane amount of time arguing and debating.

In cultures around the world, you've got all kinds. There are some who curse, some who refuse, some where being physical is more efficient than words, and I'm sure there are some that I don't know about at all. I'm just another opinion floating about.

I think perhaps for me, I've got thick skin. That's probably part of my upbringing around auto mechanic male family members. It's further thickened as I'm dating a southern LEO. There is absolutely nothing wrong with having a different set of values and moral standards. We all have to coexist and will overlap eventually.
 
That's even funnier! You think I am attacking this person for being a literacy superstar and ignoring their point because of that. Nice.

Maybe you just can't handle the fact that I DONT AGREE WITH THEM! That's it. It has nothing to do with the presentation. I don't care if their point is in Shakespearean English or American Ebonics. I DONT AGREE.

Everyone is a victim here! Can't convince people to agree so we have to make ourselves the victim of some injustice. That explains a lot on this forum and the state of the world.

Ahh well, let's see your response to her was first derisive


then dismissive

Maybe then you should start your own forum....."The Sophisticated Gentlemen's Club Of Elite Upper Echelon Victorian Mac Users In Regards To Rumors"

and then you criticize her language.

Just because a few of you fell out of an episode of The Crown doesn't mean we are all going to act high society.

Maybe next time you should just type "I don't agree" a few times in all caps.
 
I honestly don't get this word. Even after consulting a dictionary I have problems understanding the meaning.

I think we don't know this in German. We have respect or don't have it.
My knowledge of formal grammar hampers me but it may be a ‘noun vs verb’ issue!

It’s quite conventional to say ‘show respect’ or ‘show disrespect’.

However, whilst it’s fairly conventional to say ‘respecting someone’, it’s a little more er, modern to say ‘disrespecting someone’. The modern idiom ‘dissing’ is a derivative.
 
So disrespecting means to attack someone?


"attack someone" may be a little strong in a physical sense ...here's some similar meaning words, perhaps they'll help

discourtesy, rudeness, impoliteness, incivility, unmannerliness, lack of respect, lack of civility, ungraciousness, irreverence, lack of consideration, ill/bad manners; insolence, impudence, impertinence, cheek, flippancy, churlishness; informal lip, nerve.
 
Hmm, so respect and very formal language are connected in the US? I respect my boss but we talk very informal, so it isn't connected at least for us.
 
So disrespecting means to attack someone?

Not quite.

"Disrespect" is to signal by your conduct, language, stance, that you have little other than derisive and corrosive contempt for the person, or individual, with whom you are interacting.

You send a signal that you - emphatically - do not respect them, and that, instead, you hold them in contempt.
 
Hmm, so respect and very formal language are connected in the US? I respect my boss but we talk very informal, so it isn't connected at least for us.


It can get a little more complicated than that. You can have total respect for someone's ability/knowledge for how they do their job at work, BUT, absolutely hate the person for how they treat others.
 
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Not quite.

"Disrespect" is to signal by your conduct, language, stance, that you have little other than derisive and corrosive contempt for the person, or individual, with whom you are interacting.

You send a signal that you - emphatically - do not respect them, and that, instead, you hold them in contempt.
I wonder if this is limited by perception. Does the definition of disrespect vary from person to person? I feel @phrehdd made a good point about considering the audience, a conscious attempt toward politeness may lessen the possibility of bruised feelings. However, the definition of politeness may also vary from person to person.
 
I wonder if this is limited by perception. Does the definition of disrespect vary from person to person? I feel @phrehdd made a good point about considering the audience, a conscious attempt toward politeness may lessen the possibility of bruised feelings. However, the definition of politeness may also vary from person to person.

Hm.

I suspect that it might be mediated more by "culture" than by perception, or personal perspective.

For example: I have worked in a few Muslim countries in Asia, societies where habits of deference were deeply ingrained, and strict hierarchies - which were 'respected' - prevailed.

These were countries with varying degrees of official (and unofficial) religious observance - one, Kyrgyzstan, was exceptionally secular and was simply 'culturally' Muslim.

Anyway, it was explained to me that "losing face" - and not being seen to "lose face" - especially in public, and especially in public in front of subordinates - is something that matters enormously in those cultures. You cannot not show respect in public.

Thus, even though your job may entail having to "speak truth" - and indeed, "speak truth to those holding positions of power" in such countries, you had to find a way to do so that would be seen as 'correct', 'polite', and respectful, but yet still managed to convey your concerns, or thoughts, even though, they, too, might not have been completely welcome.

This presented its own challenges to westerners, - who come from less elaborate - and often, less formal - cultures, and where two hours of exquisitely polite - yet revealing - but quite formal conversation preceding dinner must take place before one can even begin to think of broaching the matters that are uppermost in your mind, and that need to be addressed and discussed in the course of the meeting.

But "respect" - and how it is shown - is more subtle than that again. Some people - by their bearing, and conduct, and dignity - seemly draw respect - but those very same people usually bestow it, too, on others, and generally tend to do so with an understated courtesy.

Traditionally, in our world, minorities, gays and women have been treated with less respect - that is, viewed as being of lesser worth, or their opinions seen as counting for less, - than others. Class - that is - social class, has counted in this, too, as those from upper class backgrounds have tended to demand - and receive - what they think is respect.

However, there is - of course - more to it than that.

A lack of 'respect' - or, rather, clear 'disrespect' as that is an active verb - has much to do with humiliation, and humiliation in public. Why else do adults remember - with real hurt - the teacher who humiliated them in a petty display of power and frustration decades later? Why else is prison society - and the notion (however flawed the understanding of same) of 'respect' so important there?

If you think you are not respected because of who you are (rather than what you have done) - this is a powerful emotion, and can lead to unpredictable outcomes.
 
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Ahh well, let's see your response to her was first derisive



then dismissive



and then you criticize her language.



Maybe next time you should just type "I don't agree" a few times in all caps.
Cool story, bro! Maybe you should focus on the topic and less on dissecting my posts. I'm flattered and all that you care....but it's getting you nowhere. I just don't care what you have to say.
 
Unfortunately you don't have to look much further than the PRSI thread on the woman's marches in the US to see where the swear filter has been working overtime (one poster particularly).

Shame there's no such thing as a mysogyny filter too, that thread would give it a run for its money

:(
 
Unfortunately you don't have to look much further than the PRSI thread on the woman's marches in the US to see where the swear filter has been working overtime (one poster particularly).

Shame there's no such thing as a mysogyny filter too, that thread would give it a run for its money

:(

I agree.

A misogyny filter would be a welcome addition.

Indeed, I think that openly expressed misogyny has become more prevalent in recent weeks on the forum.

For that matter, I suspect that there are some who believe that recent political events have given them clear permission to openly express such views, and the apparent lack of a response would appear to further encourage them in their firm belief that they have been granted the right to openly express such opinions on these threads.
 
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Moderating on these forums has always been sketchy, bias and fuelled by personal opinion. Site rules tend to be cherry picked to apply to specific situation where moderators would rather one person or the other wins the argument.
 
Perhaps grow a little thicker hide? Many here appear to be similar to the princess on the pea …

Two thing strike me about discussions such as this.

The first is that the "debate" - or "discussion" - such as it is - tends to fall into two distinct camps, or sides, or perspectives.

And the second is that not only do these sides, or perspectives have different opinions on what constitutes have online
debate, or discussion, but - tellingly - that they even choose to express these perspectives or opinions, quite differently.

To my mind, the actual argument is quiet straightforward: You attack - or dispute - or contend - the position, not the person, and especially refrain from attacking a person on the basis of something they are (such as - gay, female, black) rather than what they stand for, or positions they hold.

Again, I reiterate that it should be entirely possible to express yourself in discussions and debate without recourse to crude epithets, insult and offensive language.

Retreating that people "should grow a thicker skin" misses the point that individuals should not be insulted - as opposed to argued with, called out on, and challenged - in the first place.

Not only is the vocabulary of the English language rich enough to allow adequately for nuances of disagreement, and dislike, to be expressed, but it also allows for robust argument without recourse to profanity.

More to the point, the whole point of the kind of crude epithets, and vulgar and profoundly offensive terms used by some here is to signal a clear lack of respect for those with whom they debate and with whom they differ. Very often, that is merely offensive insult disguised as argument.

Those who argue for the right to use untrammelled speech tend to cite a number of arguments in support of their position.

One, is the old First Amendment argument - namely that any attempt to curtail what is said is an infringement of the right to free speech.

My answer is that what one says is not suppressed, but that how you say it should be constrained by some degree of consideration and courtesy.

Then, there are the complaints about "political correctness gone mad".

In truth, "political correctness" arose out of a recognition that language is not (and was not) neutral. It has long been used by more powerful and influential groups to define those less powerful in ways that often further diminished and undermined them. The powerful defined the less powerful.

Political correctness challenged this, and made people more aware of how language is also a tool of power, and that how it is used affects perceptions and attitudes, - to minorities, gays, women, people of colour - and that if it is used in a clearly disrespectful manner, it should be challenged.

It is about reclaiming language, and making those who would prefer to use derogatory terms in a casually contemptuous manner - or terms that are perceived by those thus addressed as derogatory - think twice before doing so.

Some people do not like this, and have railed against "political correctness" precisely because it challenges their assumed right - a privilege - to offer insult based on race, gender, or ethnicity.

Again, while I accept that the mods are volunteers, and that the unsettled and divisive political environment offers its own particular challenges - I think that the forums could have been a lot more proactive in policing language.

By not calling it out, you are condoning it and enabling it and facilitating it. Worst of all, you are normalising it.

Courtesy suggests a respect: Discourteous words attacking the people rather than the position - make it clear that an expression of contemptuous anger is all that is desired, and to allow this tone - let alone the unpleasant content - to come a new norm, a new standard, in the forum, would be unfortunate.
 
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And again an answer totally American - The world, and this forum, consists of more then us American views.

And yes I show respect only when someone has earned it. Respect is something germans only give after hard work from the other side, it is no default state.
 
And again an answer totally American - The world, and this forum, consists of more then us American views.

And yes I show respect only when someone has earned it. Respect is something germans only give after hard work from the other side, it is no default state.

As it happens, speaking for myself, I'm not American; I don't live there, don't work there, and am not from there. I'm European.

Actually, my posts on this thread have been prompted mostly by my appalled disgust at what US society allowed to take place in the public space during the election campaign and how this has allowed and facilitated a culture and climate where the idea of conducting debates and discussions in the public space without rancour is deemed an expressive of excessive sensitivity - rather than merely basic human courtesy and consideration.

In any public exchange, I would see that a basic level of courtesy should be assumed and expected; beyond that - yes, respect is earned, but to assume that one now should commence a conversation - even an online one - by arguing that one's interlocutor "develop a thick skin" because you - or one - prefers to use crude epitaphs instead of polite language, is to miss the point.

A conversation need not devolve into an exchange of insults; then, it is an excuse to vent, not to argue, and certainly not to persuade.

Besides, respect, as with liking, loathing and other human expressions of feeling, comes in many shades and covers a wide spectrum.

It is not an absolute, and - to those whom you meet fleetingly and briefly - a basic degree of common courtesy should not be too much to ask when exchanging arguments and opinions.
 
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As it happens, speaking for myself, I'm not American; I don't live there, don't work there, and am not from there. I'm European.

Actually, my posts on this thread have been prompted mostly by my appalled disgust at what US society allowed to take place in the public space during the election campaign and how this has allowed and facilitated a culture and climate where the idea of conducting debates and discussions in the public space without rancour is deemed an expressive of excessive sensitivity - rather than merely basic human courtesy and consideration.

In any public exchange, I would see that a basic level of courtesy should be assumed and expected; beyond that - yes, respect is earned, but to assume that one now should commence a conversation - even an online one - by arguing that one's interlocutor "develop a thick skin" because you - or one - prefers to use crude epitaphs instead of polite language, is to miss the point.

A conversation need not devolve into an exchange of insults; then, it is an excuse to vent, not to argue, and certainly not to persuade.

Besides, respect, as with liking, loathing and other human expressions of feeling, comes in many shades and covers a wide spectrum.

It is not an absolute, and - to those whom you meet fleetingly and briefly - a basic degree of common courtesy should not be too much to ask when exchanging arguments and opinions.

I agree with you, because although I do understand that political issues make people angry, and sometimes they feel the need to vent somewhere about it, to start a discussion with an attack using just sheer offensive language (being directed to whoever, it doesn't matter really) derails the intent of the post to attack and just belittle both the political figure in discussion and the people that want to join in on that discussion, but simply disagree with one's stance. Therefore, I believe that the entire discussion is now useless, as the intent has now deviated -from discussing, to attacking. It doesn't allow anyone to actually -as you said- combat arguments and not people, which is inherently the core of a discussion.
If people want to vent, fine, but they should acknowledge that it does not, in any way, benefit or enhance the discussion, it's just spewing rage, which, I will repeat it, shouldn't be the focus of a civil debate.
As it was discussed earlier, the especially difficult part of moderation is essentially knowing where to draw the line, and as moderators won't always act equally (not because they don't want to, just because of the impossibility to do so), I think that they do a great job in allowing some aspects of moderation to be up for debate.
(As I am not a native speaker, I apologize for any mistakes in my post. I learned a lot of new words in this thread.)
 
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