Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Exclusive: Apple's Tile Competitor Will Include 'Items' Tab in iOS 13's Find My App and Much More
- Thread starter MacRumors
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
I’m not ignoring the install base. I’m pointing out that the install base is meaningless unless those devices are actually actively running the tile app. Not every android device can relay position data for tile. EVERY ios device will relay position data for Apple’s version.
Yep - you missed something - and I bet a lot of people have not quite worked out how the tracking magic actually works. The tracker device uses Bluetooth. The iPhones detect the Bluetooth and combine the identity of the tracker device with gps coordinates. This info is shared privately and anonymously. That’s the jist of it. How do you get all those iPhones to do this for you? - that’s the question answered by Apple.
The tracker device ID and all other info is kept private so only the owner of the tracker device gets the information.
Last edited:
Still doesn’t explain how other people would then get that information without using my data. Is Verizon really going to offer free data so an ATT customer can find their wallet?
With the amount of money they are going to charge for these, you should have problem fitting those in your wallet since it will probably be completely empty.
On a more serious note, though, I could definitely use these as well. Unless the price is going to be very Apple-esque..
I am not much of an explainer - but I can try and answer in my own way and as best I can:
OK - so you are wondering about "your data", and also wondering about the extra bandwidth used to track all these other peoples devices right?
"Your data" is not really doing anything much. Your phone will be relaying a small amount of data though. You are connected to the cell phone network and bleeping a few bits and bytes here and there just as the phone would normally be doing. You won't be sharing your location BUT at the very same time you are actually sending some information over the cellular network that IS your GPS location data AND ALSO the Identity number of the Bluetooth Tracker tag. That sounds a lot like the same thing as sending "your iPhone GPS coordinates" - except this data is encrypted and dissociated from your iPhone and is instead tied to the identity number of the Bluetooth Tracker tag. This sounds a bit twisted, but that's how these things do work.
Apple will probably give us more information about how much extra battery drain every iPhone user on the planet will have to accept - but actually they will be stating that this amount is equal to zero - and that is probably right. I suppose it is a trivial small amount of data, and Apple could claim that the data has always been there anyways and had to be sent, but now they are hitching a free ride with the Bluetooth tracker ID number hidden in there.
Voila. Verizon has no clue whether the tracker tag is an "ATT" customer or anything else. In fact if they designed it right, Verizon nor ATT nor anyone, including YOU will not know that you have tracked any bluetooth tag at all. Your phone exists on a cellphone network or wifi, and all this tracking stuff is done in the background anId hidden within existing nominal traffic. I made all this up, but never let facts get in the way of the truth. Someone who knows more may correct me, but how often am I wrong - almost never right?
So if you mean, for example, if you disabled data on your phone, would it no longer be able to relay location of other people's lost devices? Probably.
So technically it likely does use some of "your" data cap, but likely on the order of a hand full of bytes. A single iMessage is likely to be more than this lost tracking. Inefficiencies in apps on your phone and websites and advertisers waste so much more data than this ever would. It is negligible, and if it bother you that much there is a decent chance that there will be something for you to disable on your phone.
Control over hardware and software. Apple can do things for free that tile currently charges a subscription for. The tile app is never going to be able to run fully backgrounded or be integrated with Apple devices on a system level.
Come iOS 13, every Apple device with Bluetooth functionality becomes a tile tracker, immediately giving Apple an installed base greater than every tile tracker ever sold.
That said, Apple does have a really compelling privacy/encryption story for the Find My functionality. Basically, they (claim to) use a key that is unique and changing for every device so even if you can see all the pings in the real world, even Apple can’t tie that back to a user. It’s what we’d expect from Apple.
Here’s a Wired story on the encryption: https://www.wired.com/story/apple-find-my-cryptography-bluetooth/
Considering Apple's stance, and the recent demand for more privacy, a lot of people will likely opt out of allowing this feature to be on unless they purchase one of these devices. Add to that concern an unknown cost and potential performance impacts by having your device constantly looking for devices and Apple's user base becomes meaningless.
I am not much of an explainer - but I can try and answer in my own way and as best I can:
OK - so you are wondering about "your data", and also wondering about the extra bandwidth used to track all these other peoples devices right?
"Your data" is not really doing anything much. Your phone will be relaying a small amount of data though. You are connected to the cell phone network and bleeping a few bits and bytes here and there just as the phone would normally be doing. You won't be sharing your location BUT at the very same time you are actually sending some information over the cellular network that IS your GPS location data AND ALSO the Identity number of the Bluetooth Tracker tag. That sounds a lot like the same thing as sending "your iPhone GPS coordinates" - except this data is encrypted and dissociated from your iPhone and is instead tied to the identity number of the Bluetooth Tracker tag. This sounds a bit twisted, but that's how these things do work.
Apple will probably give us more information about how much extra battery drain every iPhone user on the planet will have to accept - but actually they will be stating that this amount is equal to zero - and that is probably right. I suppose it is a trivial small amount of data, and Apple could claim that the data has always been there anyways and had to be sent, but now they are hitching a free ride with the Bluetooth tracker ID number hidden in there.
Voila. Verizon has no clue whether the tracker tag is an "ATT" customer or anything else. In fact if they designed it right, Verizon nor ATT nor anyone, including YOU will not know that you have tracked any bluetooth tag at all. Your phone exists on a cellphone network or wifi, and all this tracking stuff is done in the background anId hidden within existing nominal traffic. I made all this up, but never let facts get in the way of the truth. Someone who knows more may correct me, but how often am I wrong - almost never right?
What I see as the issue isn't how much data, or privacy, or performance is lost but rather that there is any. Consumers are becoming more aware that the cost of something is more than just what you paid at the cash register, and unless you also have one of the tracking devices what would be the motivation to enable these features? Kindness? I don't leave my front door unlocked just in case someone's car breaks down and I am unlikely to enable a feature that has an ongoing negative impact (no matter how small) just in case someone lost their wallet. Performance, privacy, security, and data cost are all real issues that you have to sell customers who will never use the feature for themselves.
Is it cool? Sure. Is it realistic? Mehbe.
Well, you won’t have a choice and you won’t know the difference and it might use zero of your data bandwidth calculation.
Can this be shut off? I don’t think so unless you put your phone in airplane mode or switch off cellular completely. I don’t think it has to use “cellular data” as it is commonly thought about.
[doublepost=1567775715][/doublepost]
Maybe - but not necessarily!
[doublepost=1567775858][/doublepost]
Opt out of what? If it’s truly transparent and functions without touching your data allowance, there is nothing to opt out of
. Best to check out what Apple will say about it, because if you don’t know yet about something and ask for explanations - you might need to understand more.
Last edited:
Well, you won’t have a choice and you won’t know the difference and it might use zero of your data bandwidth calculation.
Can this be shut off? I don’t think so unless you put your phone in airplane mode or switch off cellular completely. I don’t think it has to use “cellular data” as it is commonly thought about.
I am curious how it will work if it doesn't use cellular or wifi.
Opt out of what? If it’s truly transparent and functions without touching your data allowance, there is nothing to opt out of
Best to check out what Apple will say about it, because if you don’t know yet about something and ask for explanations - you might need to understand more.
Yes - and since we are discussing a hypothetical feature we have to infer based on known existing tech. As far as I know there is no free long distance wireless data transmission protocol that isn't a security risk.
Same issue with tile, which won’t work as well for moving items if there isn’t anyone with the same product nearby.
Thing is, with 1.4 billion active devices in use, chances are good that you will pass by someone with an Apple product. In the very least, it should allow you to get a rough idea of its location, even if the user density isn’t enough to accurately triangulate its location.
In the US at least, with the high install base of iPhones, Apple watches, Airpods, iPads and MacBooks, I will say you are in good hands.
You are curious eh
. It definitely uses data on your iPhone but not part of your “cellular data” allocation. Consider that, and how that could be.[doublepost=1567820548][/doublepost]
Well, multiple iPhones might do that using RSSI but it’s not the tracker really, it’s the iPhones doing a few things.
Last edited:
What is nonsense about the limited range of bluetooth?
[doublepost=1567825343][/doublepost]
That's what I was asking about. How do you share data without using data or WiFi?
[doublepost=1567825486][/doublepost]
We don't have enough population density to get broadband to most of the country... let alone multiple iphones within 33 feet of each other.
Oh boy.
What is nonsense is that you appear to be talking about an imaginary huge chain of iPhone's using Bluetooth to accomplish the tracking device functions
I tried to explain, but you missed it - with this comment about bluetooth. The context is important. Perhaps I am not that good at trying to explain.The other point about "share data without using data or wifi" - let's be clearer about it, data is of course going to be transmitted. At the same time, your cellular data will not be “spent”. Apple will explain it better I think - Relax, it will all be good
Last edited:
Interesting ideas - zero power radio (receivers):
“Zero-Power BT Radio for "Find My Airpod" (SAND2018-1510, USPTO 20170126263) [and iPod/MacBook/Chips-Sold-To-Other-Companies/Etc)”
One of the main problems (I assume) with the “Find My AirPods” function is that the BT antenna on the AirPods (and/or case) are not always-on devices. Is the technology for zero-power antennas developed enough to be used in AirPods/other-devices (if it can be used in the BT range)?
“Zero-Power Radio Device”
Robert W. Brocato
Sandia National Laboratories Report; SAND2018-1510; February 2018
[https://prod.sandia.gov/techlib-noauth/access-control.cgi/2018/181510.pdf]
“Zero Power Radio Frequency Receiver” USPTO 20170126263
[http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2017/0126263.html]
(Possibly also useful in any number of ways, especially for AirPods
“RF Energy Harvesting for Ubiquitous, Zero Power Wireless Sensors”; Warda Saeed et al.International J Antennas Propagation 2018, Article ID 8903139 [doi:10.1155/2018/8903139]
[https://www.hindawi.com/journals/ijap/2018/8903139/]
[doublepost=1567884411][/doublepost]
No doubt.. Even with BTLE - what would the power requirements of this be? Of course, the iPhone *already* has to have an always-on radio receiver, so depending on frequency bands, it would be negligible.
Other question - how do you put the tag *into* "lost" mode wen it's - well - *lost*.. Otherwise you'd have to have the thing continually transmitting, which would eat up power. Unless of course the "zero-power radio/power-harvesting" idea (see my other comment).
[doublepost=1567884628][/doublepost]
How about 2 for 9.99, 5 for 19.99, 20 for 49.99, and 50 for 99.99?
My guess would be there are two use cases - 1) you lose your iPhone on the subway. There are lots of people, no doubt many with Tile, so Tile will find it - assuming no one steals it first. 2) You leave your iPhone outside where you were gardening yesterday. Tile's probably not going to find that, unless you happen to be in BT or Wifi range.
[doublepost=1567893533][/doublepost]
That has Black Mirror written all over it. (I'm guessing it's already been done - I know there the MacGuffin was a "see what another person's sees" device.)
Unless it was made to be able to draw energy from some chemical gradient that exists in the interstitial fluid, or extract energy using "artificial mitochondria" of some kind.