kargurin
macrumors 6502a
Squeaky wheel gets the grease. Maybe someone at Apple will notice. Very likely a small percent affected by this but they lost my business because of it.
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Other Eye-strain while using iPhone X and up
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MICHAELSD
macrumors 603
I would hope Apple is still monitoring threads like this, so our feedback isn’t necessarily falling on deaf ears. I do think there are more people affected than even they realize, and I’m surprised there still isn’t a workaround — even one that’s unofficial.
I will admit I’m desperate here trying to find a solution to be able to keep this phone and I’m sure it shows in these posts, just as I had with iPhone X. That phone in particular I felt was significantly better than what came before, so I felt it was worth trying. I don’t think I’ll contact Apple beyond leaving feedback, since they’re aware of the issue but haven’t done much to address it.
Edit: I did find that 75% brightness is probably the most comfortable level for me where I notice the least flickering. 100% is too bright, and for whatever reason the PWM curve at that level tends to bother me. I know I sound like a broken record and the longer I keep this phone the more this is going to drive me crazy but I think these displays would look absolutely amazing if they found a way to completely eliminate the flicker.
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Roadstar
macrumors 68000
I need to issue an update on the post above. Last Sunday I realized I had been having quite a lot of headaches during the previous week, and even more so during the weekend when I used my phone more. During that time I had primarily used the S20 FE while using the Pixel intermittently for photo comparison etc. So just to start ruling out things that could be causing the headaches, I moved my SIM to the Pixel and powered down the FE. Now it's been a week and I've had zero headaches. I can't figure out anything else that would've had a major change in my week compared to the previous ones with increased headaches, so it's starting to seem like that even with its DC Dimming, the FE's flickering is worse than the Pixel's. Also a side-by-side check with slo-mo video camera on my SE seemed to agree, the FE had a wilder flicker compared to the Pixel.
I was also OK with the OnePlus Nord display when I used it for a couple of months. According to Notebookcheck, its PWM frequency seems to be 367.6 Hz which is exactly the same as with the Pixel 5, so it seems like I can live when PWM frequency is in the range of 350 or more, but apparently the low-to-mid 200 figures are problematic. It's starting to seem like I mistakenly blamed eye strain caused by the FE on the Pixel when I used them side-by-side.
With this experience there's absolutely no way I'm ordering any S21 series Samsung phones (despite some of them carrying lucrative deals) before Notebookcheck releases their test results and they indicate PWM frequency of well over 300 Hz.
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kargurin
macrumors 6502a
My Ultra is expected to arrive Friday. I saw the demos at BB and AT&T and thought they imaged alot like my Note 10+. My Pro Max 12 had to go back because of headaches. I've never had an issue with any the Samsung phones I've owned. Pixel screens remind me of those on the iPhone with respect to color shifting but worse. I never cared for Pixel screens nor the rear FPS.
8+ vs se2020... That’s my dilemma. Meanwhile, kids in hs are taking awesome pics and videos with their 12 pro max haha
MICHAELSD
macrumors 603
SE has a better camera. iPhone 11 will have the best camera of any LCD phone.
The 12 Pro Max does have incredible cameras. I was blown away by the color accuracy, it’s so true-to-life especially on the OLED display.
jimmy_uk
macrumors 68030
My vote would be the 8 Plus for the 1080p display and larger battery. Although the rumours and back on for SE Plus, I won't hold my breath for a release this year.
I can't see any for sale in the UK, at least not for reliable (and real) retailers.
If I got the se2020, I would get the apple battery case. So that adds $120 or so. Nearly $600 with tax for a 64gb phone that I don’t really “want” haha
MICHAELSD
macrumors 603
I’m not sure why that is unless the design subconsciously reminds you of displays with PWM, so your brain is compensating for that.
I was still experiencing migraines when I tried iPhone XR so I wasn’t able to properly test that phone. Honestly I liked the XR, I was more or less still upset over this entire situation and 3D Touch is a necessary part of my workflow so I returned it.
Over a year later I tried an iPhone 11 and experienced no issues. I still wasn’t totally satisfied and didn’t want to hold onto that phone for the next year or two so I returned it under the extended COVID return policy also admittedly expecting this issue to be solved on iPhone 12 since I really wanted a modern iPhone with an OLED display.
I was able to find a few prepaid carriers that have it in-stock brand new for $250. You would have to activate under that carrier and probably stay with them for a month or two.
edit:
Against my better judgement I still have my 12 Pro Max (although I’m in an awkward position where the trade-in on my 8+ was canceled and I have a label but I may have to call them if the return gets canceled) and it‘s gotten better over time, which didn’t happen for me with iPhone X. I still can’t completely rule out issues, and I’m slightly apprehensive about keeping it for a year or two.
The next PWM-free flagship iPhone I’ll likely hold onto for 2-3 years. This phone is incredible and if it was flicker-free I may have held onto it for quite a while and moved off of annual upgrades, I’m really not sure yet. Then Apple releases a new iPhone in a new color and I get tempted all over again 😉. It’s more or less with 24-month financing the smarter value proposition is to upgrade every 2-3 years.
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I’m in no position to tell you what to do, but I’m afraid you’ll be on here in a month talking about having to get rid of the phone at a big loss. If you can get used to it, that would be amazing to hear! I can’t recall even 1 person who got over it. I’ve seen many people who are like you and WANT to believe you’re not as bad as before, but most of those people end up relenting eventually. I wish you the best, and I know you’ll keep us updated.
MICHAELSD
macrumors 603
I can’t tell you how incredible this phone is. Every time I go to reset it and box it up (which I actually did in December after getting a crazy amount of migraines while watching YouTube videos, before deciding to give it another chance) I can’t bring myself to do it. Maybe I’m worried if I change my mind and decide to order another one it won’t have the same perfect display and build. Then I pick up my 8+ again and it feels so antiquated in comparison, even though the performance is surprisingly still pretty close.
Maybe slightly off-topic but the display looks absolutely amazing, the feel of the phone in the hand is second-to-none — it feels like holding a candy bar, the cameras are significantly better than the 8+ and even quite a jump from the 11, and the Pacific Blue color is beautiful.
I can tell the display team did put a little extra attention into making the PWM less disruptive. I think Apple got a lot of feedback about it, so they did do a little to change it. Just nothing drastic, yet. iPhone 12 is the first time they’re bringing OLED to the masses, so I think what Notebookcheck said about Apple using a “cleverly designed brightness controller designed to reduce the effects of PWM as much as possible” on the 6.1” display is probably true, but overblown.
Yep, I know your pain all too well. My wife has had the X, Xs and now 11 pro and I have had my xs max for a weekend, the 11 for a weekend, and the 8+ 3 separate times. My current 8+ is the first smartphone I have ever cracked. Back is completely destroyed, but I’m not willing to buy a 4th. Battery is still at 97%, but it’s BORING like you inferred. Unlike you, I’m not willing to even entertain the idea of keeping a phone that gives me headaches. I have no concern about if it causes long term issues, I just am someone who never gets headaches, and I use my phone a lot. It’s a pretty crappy situation where I could pay cash for a new phone and a series 6 watch, but instead I’m rocking a cracked 8+ and a series 3 watch. Rumors are that the se plus may come out in April (second half of 2021 I have heard). IF that phone works for me, I’ll be 100% content. I don’t need the look of amoled, and I don’t need the best camera. A 6.1” se plus that doesn’t hurt my head would be fine by me. Several of us get pwm like symptoms from even the xr/11, so something weird is going on. It’s bad enough I can’t use a flagship, but I can’t even use an 1 haha.
kargurin
macrumors 6502a
I'm glad I am not attached to one platform. I go back and forth because I like each and each have their pluses and minuses. I regretfully returned my 12 Pro Max but will have an S21 Ultra arriving Wednesday. I'm expecting no headache problems and will provide an update by the end of the week. If I do experience headaches I'll just keep my Note 10+ because I use my phone too much to endure that. Maybe iPhone 13 will see a change in the panels....in any case I will spend plenty of time at the stores playing with the demo phones. I'm not going to make the same mistake again.
MICHAELSD
macrumors 603
I forgot how much better the OLED phones are. It just feels so much more premium, and the display is in another league.
I can’t really see them releasing a 6.1” SE Plus this year since they still sell the iPhone 11 and would essentially be undercutting themselves while offering better silicon.
Honestly I probably should just return it and get it over with since while the more I use it the more usable it becomes, I still get mild migraines after use.
I’ve stared at a friend’s Samsung display before without getting migraines, which is odd. If it was just the fact I’ve been using iPhones for longer than basically anyone then I would expect the UI to give me the most issues, then YouTube videos/apps to be the least problematic. (Side note: I’ve been using iPhones for 4-6+ hours a day since I was 12 and I’ve always been sensitive to any changes they’ve made to the displays in that I could see the difference in color/contrast.)
Yet somehow I believe if I tried a Galaxy S21 Ultra I may not get any migraines. The phone sounds better on paper than it actually is, and it would be a little bit of a pain switching over from the Apple ecosystem temporarily especially since so much of my data is stored in iCloud.
My assumption for iPhone 13 is that with a 120Hz panel they may increase the PWM rate to 480Hz (since the current phones quadruple the 60Hz refresh rate), which would be the biggest change yet.
Edit: I am still getting migraines while using it, especially with auto-brightness turned on. I’ve tested a few settings, including brightness shortcuts and Reduce White Point, and it’s just not worth the inconvenience when auto-brightness works so well otherwise. There’s slightly less flicker-induced strain at higher brightnesses, but also more eye strain since the display can get extremely bright. I can even visibly see the flicker, which had started to become less of an issue as I adjusted.
Still, I find myself flipping the phone around and looking at how nice the design and the Pacific Blue color are and not wanting to get rid of it. I’ve grown to love the color and the phone so I may have held onto this for longer than usual in an ideal world.
Edit 2: I think the difference now is partly that I had Low Battery Mode enabled, which dims the display more at the same brightness level. It’s still impossible to rule out migraines/headaches no matter what I do.
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kargurin
macrumors 6502a
Apple and Samsung both use OLED but Samsung is AMOLED. May not be a thing......but may be. Problem with AMOLED is that they get washed out more easily in sunlight and don't go as black as OLED. But Samsung makes beautiful panels for their phones and easy on my eyes. And the flagships have very high PPI.
MICHAELSD
macrumors 603
It is funny that the non-Ultra models have a lower PPI than iPhone 12, when Samsung was usually ahead in that area. They do a lot to make their phones appear better on paper. I haven’t taken a good look at a Samsung AMOLED in a while, but I’ve found Apple’s to look a lot more natural when it comes to color accuracy.
I’m not necessarily sure what difference that makes, since the flicker coefficient on Samsung displays is much higher (at some levels over 100%). Still, I’d like to see Apple invest in developing a brightness controller for OLED that doesn’t rely on PWM or any type of flicker. I’m not sure Steve Jobs would have accepted a phone with pulse-width modulation.
I would check swappa to see what mint used phones are going for, Michael. Just to see if it’s worth taking the chance of keeping it and having to sell it private party. If it’s worth the couple hundred gamble then by all means. Like you, this is the phone we have always dreamed of.
MICHAELSD
macrumors 603
Honestly the decision here is either to deal with a constant headache or to get rid of the iPhone 12 Pro Max now while I have an active return label. There’s no middle ground. I’m not willing to sell it at a loss, especially since I did the Apple Card monthly installments.
You are right this is the iPhone we’ve been dreaming of. I correctly predicted the all-screen design with OLED back in the iPhone 4 days, though I thought the home button would be moved to the side of the device.
I have seen some people reporting getting a headache with iPhone 12 (not migraines or anything more significant) then getting over it within a few days or even a month. However, there are definitely still a lot of people affected by PWM outside of this thread and I’m sure there are consumers getting headaches/migraines that aren’t able to make the connection to their phone.
I’ve tried every possible combination of settings I could think of to make this phone usable for the long-term, but I just don’t think it’s going to happen. It’s disappointing there isn’t an option in Accessibility or even a third-party workaround that mitigates the effects like there is on Android phones.
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Yep. There really is no setting to stop the pwm. I always laugh when people suggest white point, turning off Face ID or some of the other things they think cause it. If the 13 doesn’t work and the se plus doesn’t launch, I’ll have to try the small se. I was actually thinking about ordering an se today, but I stumbled on a leak from today about the se plus. Most likely it’s all bs, but I’ll wait til April like the story claimed.
MICHAELSD
macrumors 603
Rumors about the SE Plus get crazier by the day. 6.1” LCD design with possibly no notch, A14 Bionic, and 5G for $499. This makes no logical sense as it would undercut the entire iPhone lineup, including the $829 iPhone 12.
If that came to fruition I would purchase it to hold me over until the PWM is significantly improved or eliminated on the OLED models. It just seems extremely unlikely.
Yep! I agree 100% that it would undercut their more expensive models. I’d still buy it if it were 5.5” with the bezels like the 8+ I have, but an a14 and maybe 4gb ram. And I need 128gb