Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg: Apple's App Store Blocks Innovation and Competition

[Bornee35]

Wonder if you thought the same when Microsoft and Internet Explorer was being dragged through the mill.

exactly. Anyone who brings up Microsoft and how they paid manufactures to install windows and explorer, I instantly know they have no idea what they're complaining about.

 

[Jeffgtx]

The issue was Microsoft using its control of PC operating systems to unfairly disadvantage others.

How is Apple disadvantaging others? Everyone is on the same level. They aren’t keeping anybody out in preference to things they develop or prefer.

 

[m11rphy]

Apple is not a monopoly. Apple has a monopoly over software installation on its platform, a HUGE platform with over 1 billion active devices. Hence the scrutiny.

Back in the 90s, the fact that alternatives to the PC existed wasn't material. The issue was Microsoft using its control of PC operating systems to unfairly disadvantage others. That's pretty much the same situation we have with Apple and the App Store today. The fact that you can buy an Android has as much relevance today as the fact that you could go buy a Mac back in the 90s. It's not about other platforms.

It wasn't material because Microsoft had 90%+ of the PC OS market, Microsoft doesn't = PC OS Market. Mac is a PC OS and Linux is a PC OS. This is not the same because apple barley has 40% of the Smartphone OS market in the US.

You dont have people saying Sony is a monopoly as they have 100% of the Playstation market, because smart people will say Sony has x % of the console market.

Samsung has a TVOS called Tizen and LG has webOs, Samsung has 100% of the Tizen OS market but LG with their webOs prevents Samsung having a monopoly of the TVos market

 

[rwxx]

How is Apple disadvantaging others? Everyone is on the same level. They aren’t keeping anybody out in preference to things they develop or prefer.

That's no true. I can't write an x-rated app for iOS. Other types of apps aren't allowed. Apple most definitely is keeping people out as they try to force their morality on everyone.

And no, everyone is not on the same level. If I'm Amazon, I can use my own payment processing system and avoid paying Apple any commission on the things customers buy using my app. If I'm Epic, I must use Apple's payment processing system and pay 30%. Why? Because Amazon is selling a "physical" good and Epic is selling a "digital" good. Neither of which rely upon any Apple infrastructure. Is there really such an inherent difference between a physical and digital good that one does not deserve a commission? Or is it just because that's what Apple says, therefore it's fair and just?

 

[Karllake]

Why? Why can't their be a choice? You can chose to download from the app store and pay an extra 30% for your in app purchases because you value apple protecting you or if you don't you can download it off a website and save 20-30%?

I this scenario nobody is forcing you to do either? You can choose supposed privacy and pay extra or you can choose to risk it and go direct and actually read the user agreement with Epic etc.

You're argument isn't valid if you can still do it through the app store.

I think this all boils down to consumer choice, does your consumer choice for an open system over my consumer choice for a private and secure system

I think you’ll say that we can have both but where are the examples? Windows is open and full of viruses etc.

I don’t think we’ll end up agreeing or convincing each other, I get why some people want it open, but some people like it closed. It’s all a matter of perception about whether you believe iOS is a monopoly or there are other choices, these aren’t irrefutable facts.

 

[4jasontv]

OH NO!!! What is Facebook going to do? Stop tracking iOS users? Stop serving ads to iOS users? Stop treating iOS users as a product that can be sold?

WHAT WILL DO!!!!!!????
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Neither of which rely upon any Apple infrastructure.

AAAAAAAND wrong.

 

[rwxx]

It wasn't material because Microsoft had 90%+ of the PC OS market, Microsoft doesn't = PC OS Market. Mac is a PC OS and Linux is a PC OS. This is not the same because apple barley has 40% of the Smartphone OS market in the US.

Again, it's not about the OS. It's about the App Store and whether a single entity should have a complete monopoly over what happens on its platform. This is not an Apple issue. Other App Stores and platforms have similar restrictions (ie: Playstation, Nintendo). Apple is the most visible target, but I'm sure things won't stop here if Apple loses this fight.

 

[Bornee35]

Again, it's not about the OS. It's about the App Store and whether a single entity should have a complete monopoly over what happens on its platform. This is not an Apple issue. Other App Stores and platforms have similar restrictions (ie: Playstation, Nintendo). Apple is the most visible target, but I'm sure things won't stop here if Apple loses this fight.

Imagine thinking a company shouldn't have complete control over the platform they produce, I guess Sony should open their consoles to anyone who wants in at no cost.

 

[rwxx]

AAAAAAAND wrong.

Not wrong. Try again!

When I'm shopping on the Amazon app, I'm using Amazon's servers, Amazon's payment processing, etc. The only thing I need Apple for is downloading the app one time. The same is true with buying V-Bucks. Apple doesn't run Epic's payment processing. Apple doesn't run the servers that sell and manage V-Bucks, etc. Apple just forces Epic to use its payment processing and pay 30% or bans them from the platform while happily allowing Amazon to use its own payment processing and pay nothing.

 

[Abazigal]

If Facebook is angry, then Apple is probably doing something right.

 

[JGIGS]

In you example you wont have a choice, the app will solely be on Epics website and removed from the apple App Store, They did the same thing with google when they only offered side loading as option.

So when Epic charge the same price on their website you will no longer have the convenience and safety of downloading from an Apple store that choice will be gone.

The bigger issue isn't even epic, the bigger issue is some scammer creating an app that you think is a harmless game you download from a website and then privacy, personal data yada yada is breached everyone will be blaming apple and all the headlines will be Apple iPhone has major privacy, personal data breach. Thanks to you demanding change and your government enforcing this change Apple are powerless to prevent it, yet they will suffer all of the reputational damage.

And dont quote macOS, that market it so small no hackers will target it, but they sure as hell will target a billion+ iPhones

I'm not sure you fully read what I wrote but read the end where I said I would at least like the choice and not be walled into the App store. The only reason you can't currently have the choice is because of Apple and Google etc.

And what? I'm going to blame Apple for a virus, malware, or a scamming app when I chose to install something outside there app store? I know I'm taking that risk, and they could have a pop up warning as well that its a risk if they are afraid of liability when you try to install it.

I'm going to assume your either young or don't remember the days before the app stores existed. You installed apps direct from software companies all the time. You think people were going after Microsoft every time they got a virus on their computer? It's up to you to make sure your installing things that aren't risky and most large companies, like epic, aren't doing that and risking in app purchase or subscription income. That would be a horrible business model and would get shut down once people started to catch on.

With all that being said I don't think it's fair that if you do download the app from the App store the App redirects you to make your purchase out side the app directly to the app creators website. But honestly if the App store commissions were more reasonable than 30% this probably wouldn't have blown up to the issue it's become.

But only having the ability to install from the hardware/operating systems companies app store, and having to pay a 30% premium for that sure feels pretty anti-competitive to me.

 

[Karllake]

No, it was not.

It was about Microsoft leveraging its legal monopoly in the market for personal computer operating systems to gain an illegal monopoly in the market for Internet browsers.

I think it was less about the browsers market (sales of the software) and more about the control of the gateway to the service (the internet), Facebook has dominance in my view of the product (social media) which is the gateway to the service (consumer data / advertising)

 

[4jasontv]

Not wrong. Try again!

When I'm shopping on the Amazon app, I'm using Amazon's servers, Amazon's payment processing, etc. The only thing I need Apple for is downloading the app one time. The same is true with buying V-Bucks. Apple doesn't run Epic's payment processing. Apple doesn't run the servers that sell and manage V-Bucks, etc. Apple just forces Epic to use its payment processing and pay 30% or bans them from the platform while happily allowing Amazon to use its own payment processing and pay nothing.

No - Apple's services are necessary. Because V-bucks are tied to an Apple ID that purchased the App. It needs that way to prevent fraud and malice by the developer.

Amazon understand this which is why they offer 'pay with amazon'. People spend more if they can trust the person handling their money. You can't trust Epic, just like you can't trust most developers.

 

[rwxx]

Imagine thinking a company shouldn't have complete control over the platform they produce, I guess Sony should open their consoles to anyone who wants in at no cost.

I have mixed feelings about consoles. Consoles used to be one trick ponies and, for the most part, still are. They're for playing games. Should one company have complete control over the platform? Personally I don't know as much about how console licensing works, whether SONY can prevent developers from writing certain types of games, etc. If so, then yes, I have a problem with that too. I'm less concerned about the openness of niche game console platforms and far more concerned about the openness of platforms with much wider adoption, platforms we rely upon every single day to communicate, to access information, and to manage many aspects of our lives.

 

[Bornee35]

I'm not sure you fully read what I wrote but read the end where I said I would at least like the choice and not be walled into the App store. The only reason you can't currently have the choice is because of Apple and Google etc.

And what? I'm going to blame Apple for a virus, malware, or a scamming app when I chose to install something outside there app store? I know I'm taking that risk, and they could have a pop up warning as well that its a risk if they are afraid of liability when you try to install it.

I'm going to assume your either young or don't remember the days before the app stores existed. You installed apps direct from software companies all the time. You think people were going after Microsoft every time they got a virus on their computer? It's up to you to make sure your installing things that aren't risky and most large companies, like epic, aren't doing that and risking in app purchase or subscription income. That would be a horrible business model and would get shut down once people started to catch on.

With all that being said I don't think it's fair that if you do download the app from the App store the App redirects you to make your purchase out side the app directly to the app creators website. But honestly if the App store commissions were more reasonable than 30% this probably wouldn't have blown up to the issue it's become.

But only having the ability to install from the hardware/operating systems companies app store, and having to pay a 30% premium for that sure feels pretty anti-competitive to me.

Go buy a pine phone then. Open source, no support, and pretty cheap too. Nobody is holding a gun to your head to buy an iPhone, and associated App Store. You buy it because of the brand value.

 

[rwxx]

You can't trust Epic, just like you can't trust most developers.

Really, so you think all the developers on this forum aren't trustworthy? Nice guy you are.

 

[femike]

Oh that is so sad, Mark can't get as much data from Apple users as he would like to.
I hope Facebook and Mark can.... well ... you know...

 

[4jasontv]

Really, so you think all the developers on this forum aren't trustworthy? Nice guy you are.

Why would I trust them? I don't know them. It's to cheap to develop for iOS for me to trust them. Maybe if developers had to be held personally accountable I might trust them. But even the mid size developers abuse the trust we give them under Apple's existing rules.

 

[rwxx]

No - Apple's services are necessary. Because V-bucks are tied to an Apple ID that purchased the App. It needs that way to prevent fraud and malice by the developer.

They are necessary because Apple has inserted themselves in a way to make them necessary. Apple services aren't necessary on the Mac, the PC, or any other platform when it comes to buying V-Bucks. So please spare me the ridiculous spin.

 

[4jasontv]

They are necessary because Apple has inserted themselves in a way to make them necessary. Apple services aren't necessary on the Mac, the PC, or any other platform when it comes to buying V-Bucks. So please spare me the ridiculous spin.

Show me a trustworthy developer and I will show you a mistake.

 

[Karllake]

And right now, there is a massive debate and uproar about Apple's business practices, and whether or not they are monopolistic, and if and how they should be contained. Personally, I would be surprised if nothing changes, but I guess we will see.

Although I don’t agree that scrutiny necessarily means wrong doing. I think more transparency and evenness is required in the App Store and agree there will be changes, it’s just a matter of how much and how fast.

 

[rwxx]

Why would I trust them? I don't know them. It's to cheap to develop for iOS for me to trust them. Maybe if developers had to be held personally accountable I might trust them. But even the mid size developers abuse the trust we give them under Apple's existing rules.

Well, I guess you shouldn't trust anyone then. I suggest you stay at home, barricade the door, and continue to spend your time online defending your favorite for-profit corporation's actions. Sounds like a rich and rewarding life!

 

[Bornee35]

I have mixed feelings about consoles. Consoles used to be one trick ponies and, for the most part, still are. They're for playing games. Should one company have complete control over the platform? Personally I don't know as much about how console licensing works, whether SONY can prevent developers from writing certain types of games, etc. If so, then yes, I have a problem with that too. I'm less concerned about the openness of niche game console platforms and far more concerned about the openness of platforms with much wider adoption, platforms we rely upon every single day to communicate, to access information, and to manage many aspects of our lives.

agree to disagree. Platforms live and die by the companies that run them, not any other way.

 

[rwxx]

Show me a trustworthy developer and I will show you a mistake.

Like the mistake Apple made in allowing who knows how many apps to read the clipboard for who knows how long? Yeah, they REALLY care about privacy! Lol. But keep on deluding yourself that Apple is the only trustworthy game in town. Hilarious.

 

[4jasontv]

Well, I guess you shouldn't trust anyone then. I suggest you stay at home, barricade the door, and continue to spend your time online defending your favorite for-profit corporation's actions. Sounds like a rich and rewarding life!

Apple has proven their trustworthy. Let them be in charge of developers. They are keeping them from accessing more data. And that's a good thing.
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Like the mistake Apple made in allowing who knows how many apps to read the clipboard for who knows how long? Yeah, they REALLY care about privacy! Lol. But keep on deluding yourself that Apple is the only trustworthy game in town. Hilarious.

LOL. You just proved my point. THAT WAS DEVELOPERS DOING THAT!