Fallout From Apple's Exclusion of Flash-to-iPhone Export Continues

[Koalaboy]

This is a very very dangerous precedent, and it should not be allowed to happen. However, Apple seem to be tightening their stranglehold on the app store market, and people are foolishly going along with it. What next from Apple, you can only develop for the iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad if you don't develop for any other platform? I feel like we're teetering on the edge of dangerous, monopolistic and anti-competitive practices.

A dangerous precedent that a company can dictate what software you can use to develop on their hardware ? Utter tosh.

You can either develop for Apple hardware, agreeing to their conditions, or not. YOUR CHOICE.

They're not impacting your ability in any way whatsoever. They're just dictating their house rules. In the same way Adobe say I have to pay them twice if I want to use their software on both a Mac and a PC.

You're allowed to be upset that you can't use your software of choice to do something... but don't go on as if it's a god-given right. Go develop for another platform and stop pretending the world will end because Apple don't allow Flash.

You know, if all the people crying 'foul' are correct, Apple will go out of business (or change their strategy) because everyone wants Flash. Supply and Demand. Why not just wait until you're proven right, eh ?

 

[Ommo]

I'm not in any way an expert in graphic software, but as far as I'm conerned Photoshop is irreplacable. There's no tool as versetile that I know of (but please feel free to make recommendations). I use it with a wacom to do all kinds of stuff from photo touch-ups to digital paintings. And I love that it comes bundled with InDesign and Illustrator for a nice seemless workflow.
At least for me I feel that it synergizes so well with Apples user friendly philosophy. I have never been much of a computer buff. I don't like patched up solutions of hundreds of apps and plug ins to make things work. I want quick get up and go software so that I can concentrate on my work.

 

[Xenoxide]

If you think about it rationally, I think this has little with Apple trying to screw over Adobe (Although I'm sure there is a small element of that), and more to do with the OS4 limitations that have been rumored.

Think about it, what does Apple gain by locking out Adobe's cross compiler? People who were going to use it for developing iPhone apps now cant. As a result, less developers on the iPhone platform, all of which would still be paying Apple their $99 developer fee and 30% on all App revenue.

All MonoTouch and Adobe's Flash crosscompiler would have brought to the table is more developers, more apps, and more revenue. Apple is the one losing out by doing this, so I doubt the reasons are anything but technical.

 

[mrochester]

A dangerous precedent that a company can dictate what software you can use to develop on their hardware ? Utter tosh.

You can either develop for Apple hardware, agreeing to their conditions, or not. YOUR CHOICE.

They're not impacting your ability in any way whatsoever. They're just dictating their house rules. In the same way Adobe say I have to pay them twice if I want to use their software on both a Mac and a PC.

You're allowed to be upset that you can't use your software of choice to do something... but don't go on as if it's a god-given right. Go develop for another platform and stop pretending the world will end because Apple don't allow Flash.

You know, if all the people crying 'foul' are correct, Apple will go out of business (or change their strategy) because everyone wants Flash. Supply and Demand. Why not just wait until you're proven right, eh ?

Its not about what is blocked, it's about why things are being blocked in the first place.

 

[applesupergeek]

Just hire someone with some minimum technical expertise to report these type of stories macrumors. It's ridiculous and embarrassing to keep copying whole paragraphs from apple insider verbatim because you can't opine on the issues... Maybe one good side effect might be that it gets people to go to ai, and read some substantial articles instead of this trite....

 

[a cat *miaow*]

really? i remember when ms was forced to open up windows to other webbrowsers and everybody here was dancing happily. i am not sure but i thought ms develped windows and were entiteled to include whatever browser the f. they wanted.

i liked apple cause they were different back then. apple was about innovation. now apple is turning more and more into a greedy evil company like ms was once, just trying to secure what they did so far by any cost.

it seems to me that apple hired the whole ms lawyers and advisors department.

apple was convincing people back then. now it's forcing people. thats sad.

Microsoft's acts would be nothing next to what Apple would do if they had the same amount of power and leverage. I posted the same comment a while ago, and that's that if Apple get more powerful they are easily going to be the most 'evil' corporate monster...

 

[Davidkoh]

I foresee some forced changes for Apple by court rulings in the future, just like MS have had to do

 

[*LTD*]

A dangerous precedent that a company can dictate what software you can use to develop on their hardware ? Utter tosh.

You can either develop for Apple hardware, agreeing to their conditions, or not. YOUR CHOICE.

They're not impacting your ability in any way whatsoever. They're just dictating their house rules. In the same way Adobe say I have to pay them twice if I want to use their software on both a Mac and a PC.

You're allowed to be upset that you can't use your software of choice to do something... but don't go on as if it's a god-given right. Go develop for another platform and stop pretending the world will end because Apple don't allow Flash.

You know, if all the people crying 'foul' are correct, Apple will go out of business (or change their strategy) because everyone wants Flash. Supply and Demand. Why not just wait until you're proven right, eh ?

Why, when it's much more fun to troll Apple forums and pretend the sky is falling? Every time Apple rejects an app, sets out some ground rules for developers, and doesn't happen to offer what some people think they're entitled to, they scream "monopoly!!" They don't even have to know what it means, they just instinctively type it and hit "submit post", in the hopes that others can scream the same thing because they think Apple shouldn't be allowed their success and Apple users should be as miserable as the rest of the PC crowd.

As if Apple's "tightening grip" on the App Store will affect my health or something. LOL

 

[mrochester]

Why, when it's much more fun to troll Apple forums and pretend the sky is falling? Every time Apple rejects an app, sets out some ground rules for developers, and doesn't happen to offer what some people think they're entitled to, they scream "monopoly!!" They don't even have to know what it means, they just instinctively type it and hit "submit post", in the hopes that others can scream the same thing because they think Apple shouldn't be allowed their success and Apple users should be as miserable as the rest of the PC crowd.

As if Apple's "tightening grip" on the App Store will affect my health or something. LOL

It's blase attitudes like this that will lead us ever more down the slippery slope. Incredibly, I am an Apple user, and yet I *still* think this is a dangerous move. Who would have thought that such independent thinking was possible of an Apple user?! Astounding!

 

[Davidkoh]

It's blase attitudes like this that will lead us ever more down the slippery slope. Incredibly, I am an Apple user, and yet I *still* think this is a dangerous move. Who would have thought that such independent thinking was possible of an Apple user?! Astounding!

You mean individual thinking? Instead of being told what to think! I thought I was the only one!

 

[chaynes]

Adobe Needed Tendin' To

I use Excel because I've used it for 15 years. I use Photoshop and Illustrator for the same reason. But I do it because I have to make a living with a computer and those programs are what I need. There are no viable substitutes... Adobe bought them all.

Now, the installation process from Adobe has almost always sucked. The Mac products always come out later, sometimes much later than those for Windows. I know about market share and all that but, frankly, there have always been enough Mac customers out there to make equal treatment justifiable. I think Adobe is lazy, as a company. And I think they're all about money. I really don't think Adobe is about customer service at all.

Aperture is letting me get away from Photoshop a bit. Refreshing. I do not see a time in the future when I can leave Illustrator behind.

Flash has been a sometime thing on my machines for a while. When I have had trouble with pages loading, etc. I turn off Flash and lose that content but I can move on. So, Adobe, we know who you are and what's important to you. If I had alternatives to your products I'd change in a minute. The HTML5 incursion just looks like the first opportunity to make a dent into a world you can't buy and ruin.

 

[skyehill]

Slightly off-topic, but I suggest people learn to make frequent use of the ignore user function.

I add several every day, and it makes these forums much more enjoyable.

It is easy, just right click on the person's name next to their post, and open in a new window. Then near the right hand side, there is a link to ignore the user.

It will show it added to the list, you click save and then you close the window. Takes like 5 seconds a pop. Then you can get right back to reading.

I have found this superior to engaging people who are just trying to get a reaction or are just saying things that make no sense.

Then all you have to read are the words of other brain-washed dullards that think "iPad" was a stroke of brilliant naming and design. Bravo, you're a sheep.

 

[*LTD*]

Adobe software development:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6f8CKjsYS9k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qZgT3fnwOU&feature=related

What did you expect?

 

[christian_k]

Can I make a suggestion that you should get yourself a dictionary app from the App Store?

You can't behave in a monopolistic fashion if you are, in fact, not a monopoly. Apple while it has a large market share in smart phones does not have a monopoly.

If you are arguing that they have a monopoly on the iPhone itself, well thats just plain stupid. Thats like saying Nintendo has a monopoly on the Wii or Toyota has a monopoly on the Prius.

Actually the Wii is the perfect example. Its a mostly closed system that developers are allowed to make games for as long as they play by Nintendo's rules.

If people don't like the feature set Apple is providing, they should buy a different device. Simple.

Apple is betting that users prefer their approach and is focusing on keeping the users happy first, developers happy second. It's working.

Hello,

being a licensed developer for Nintendo Wii and also iPhone I can tell you: Yes it's true, Nintendo has strict regulations. It is really not an easy task to pass Nintendos QA. But we are fine with that. We could develop for another platform if we wanted to. Of course customers can buy any other device if Nintendos restrictions do not allow anything they would like to have.

But Apple goes far beyond that. They try to use their controll over a leading mobile platform to change the way the web works. This does not only affect Apple customers and developers. Everyone who uses the web or develops for it is affected when in important player intentionally creates incompatibility with something that is well established. It is the same as the browser war 10 years ago.

And no: HTML5 (esp. the video part) is not a truely free and open technology. Attempts to agree on a codec that does not involve patents and licenses have failed. But Apple does not care if their favorite technology maight be legally problematic on Linux...

Christian

 

[cutthroughthebs]

What many buffoons who defend Apple cannot seem to understand (and don't know the first thing about programming, so their opinion shouldn't really count anyways), is that the effect of this is far beyond just flash. Phonegap, Unity, eg....are also all gone.


Adobe should "accidentally" release a jailbroken flash and pull ALL mac products off the shelf and restrict support.

Then laugh as Apple sales plummet.

And you like the taste of your foot obviously he he! We are talking about a PHONE people, not a computer! It makes NO sense to have flash when there are just as good of options that are more power frendly. Adobe would NEVER quit Apple because what would they use for their personal use he he...

 

[*LTD*]

Some guy from Adobe used a company blog to throw a tantrum.

That's the only news here, folks.

 

[WilliamLondon]

Apple has become Microsoft.

(He also said the Apple does post comments, and ... it seems that this thread has some).

No it hasn't. The companies are nothing alike. Microsoft abused its dominant position, and Microsoft IMHO never produced products that were good. It still doesn't.

For a company to create user interface standards and break their own rules creates an operating system that is unusable IMNSHO.

Apple is not dominant in any market - you have choice. In the world of business (and low end, cheap systems put together by master assemblers with no design or user experience understanding) you have no choice - it is Microsoft. In business, you have Microsoft, that's it.

They then abused their position with IIS and IE, and were taken to court.

Apple has done nothing like this, and they are not similar in any way. The way they each create and produce products is entirely different - their philosophies are entirely different. Their volumes are entirely different. With Microsoft most people bought because it was the only choice. When you bought Apple, you were *choosing* Apple. The whole buying process is different. The reasons you buy Apple are different.

They are nothing alike.

 

[kresh]

Why, when it's much more fun to troll Apple forums and pretend the sky is falling? Every time Apple rejects an app, sets out some ground rules for developers, and doesn't happen to offer what some people think they're entitled to, they scream "monopoly!!" They don't even have to know what it means, they just instinctively type it and hit "submit post", in the hopes that others can scream the same thing because they think Apple shouldn't be allowed their success and Apple users should be as miserable as the rest of the PC crowd.

As if Apple's "tightening grip" on the App Store will affect my health or something. LOL

An absolutely brilliant post, thank you!

 

[cutthroughthebs]

It's blase attitudes like this that will lead us ever more down the slippery slope. Incredibly, I am an Apple user, and yet I *still* think this is a dangerous move. Who would have thought that such independent thinking was possible of an Apple user?! Astounding!

I think you were a "switcher" and you have nothing to say here because you just purchased a mac to run windows too... You weren't with us in the early days so who are you to judge what us true mac users want? Go launch boot camp and "take a seat" like Chris Hansen would say he he...

 

[Manderby]

I read pro flash, pro HTML5... users are between the rock and the hard place... May this forum and the related post bring us the real reasons behind the fight... Is Apple Right? Is Html5 the new standard? Is Flash a resource hog? Guys thanks for helping

To put it short, the move to HTML5 is a new way to make money.

Long explanation:

Flash is originally designed by Macromedia and it was advertised as "what the web could be". It was an all-in-one product providing a rich web experience already around the year 2000. Providing the flash format as a plugin made it possible to support the functionality in virtually any browser, which has been done for more than 10 years now. As it was more or less the only competitor providing such functionality, it became almost 100% widespread. Macromedia was bought by Adobe in 2005 after some patent fights.

The base functionality of flash was interactive vector graphics with animation. During time, a programming language (ActionScript) was integrated which triggered the growth of flash games. Introducing a video codec, they followed the path of the all-in-one-solution providing a platform for any content type desired by the users. Under Adobe, they integrated more functionality known from Photoshop and Illustrator such as filters.

Now parallel to this evolution, HTML evolved too. The road of HTML is the opposite of an all-in-one solution: It is an open standard which allows the splitting of the content into several different formats which too are based on open standards. Speaking so, there exist standards for content, design, images, vector-graphics, interactivity, video, ...

HTML 4.01 can be seen as the base of modern webpages (de-facto standard since 2000), which was based on SGML. With time, XML and the use of DOM evolved out of SGML. This simplified the handling of a markup-language like HTML for algorithms. Therefore XHTML was created which also became very widespread. Now with HTML5, all the predecessors are combined into one valid specification.

HTML5 was formerly named "Web applications 1.0" and this is what people refer to when they talk about HTML5: It's the use of all surrounding open formats like Ajax, SVG, WebGL, open videocodecs, ... In short: Web2.0. All those surrounding formats are available or will be available withing the next years. This basically allows the use of these formats to create the same rich experience as with flash.

In the last few years, it came to a war between the different media technologies (whereas HTML5 and Flash are just 2 of many technologies). As users (I mainly speak of users here on MR) have seen the power of HTML5 (caused by the Web2.0-hype), they increasingly are focused on using these open standards and demand the development of better integration (see all the snappier-comments when talking about Javascript). Whereas HTML5 evolved quickly, Flash didn't evolved very much and so today, Flash feels like a dinosaur (apparantly slow and resource hog, which I myself can neither deny nor approve).

The current war is based on user experiences with the very widespread use of Flash. Biggest complaint is: Flash is (mis)used to display annoying ad banners. Another complaint is the viewing of videos. To be fair, HTML5 as well can be (mis)used to display annoying ads (in my opinion even more annoying than banners). And as HTML5 is not that widespread yet, video watching is not supported on every browser yet.

In short: Currently, we live in a mess of different media formats and HTML5 is one way to clean them up. That's why people hope to see more HTML5 in the near future. Nonetheless, people survived the last 20 years too and the widespread integration of HTML5 will take another 5 years at least. HTML5 will be the standard in the future, but this does not means that Flash will not exist in parallel.

Now about the money:

Pro Flash:
Humanity is a creature of habit. Flash has been known for years and people know how to program it and they are glad that it is an all-in-one-solution. This safes money. And the overwhelming majority of people simply do not care about how good or bad something is designed, as long as it works. So why worry about a new technology? Ajax on the other hand is very young and people are still in the state of reinventing the wheel. This costs money.

Pro HTML5:
It is an open standard and very well designed. It will become more widespread with time and will help to deliver content more smoothly. Free algorithms supporting the standardized technologies will be available and make it easyer to deliver content. This saves money. HTML5 contains new elements in its core itself which allow content description of a broad variety of media types like audio and video without the use of proprietary plugins. This reduces cost and risk. In the end, all media types become a part of the content itself instead of being separate objects. This also means that for example blocking ads becomes much harder as it is impossible to distinguish them from the content.

---

My opinion:

I personally need Flash. I like to play Flash games and I like to watch and create Flash animations (not videos). So far, the richness, speed and universality of such games and animations could not be achieved by any use of HTML5. Especially for animations, there does not even exists a suitable format yet (gif-animations or svg-animations are insuitable). Porting something from Flash to HTML5 so far is not straight-forward and as far as I know, there exist no tools to do so yet.

I use HTML5 in my own sites. But the interactive features which I see on other sites make me whish, it was HTML4. For me HTML5 as it is used in current websites is just a toy. It's ok but unnecessary. On the other hand, I'm fine with the integration of standardized technology. It makes working life easier.

I will curse HTML5 as soon as browsers begin to use the DOM structure to deliberately alter the content such that ads are displayed within the content even though the author did not included them.

EDIT: After reading some more comments in this thread, maybe this was the wrong place to describe the differences HTML5 - Flash. Sorry about that.

 

[ValSalva]

While Apple may not be in danger of becoming Microsoft they are in danger of pulling a Microsoft. From John Gruber:

Apple’s company-wide focus has since been focused intensely on one thing: iPhone OS 4.1 The number one priority at Apple is to grow mobile market share faster than Android. Anything that is not directly competitive with Android is on the back burner.

The result of Google envy for Microsoft was the debacle known as Vista. It sure seems like Apple now has Google envy and is in danger of ignoring one of it's core businesses: OS X, Mac.

The more one hears about the iPad and mobile focus of Apple the more one can see that the likely delays in Mac Pro and MBP refreshes are not about chipset shortages or marketing but more about diverting resources and taking their eye off the ball. I wouldn't be surprised to see OS X's market share start dropping.

 

[mrochester]

I think you were a "switcher" and you have nothing to say here because you just purchased a mac to run windows too... You weren't with us in the early days so who are you to judge what us true mac users want? Go launch boot camp and "take a seat" like Chris Hansen would say he he...

Any old excuse to attempt to make my opinion less 'valid'. Just suck it up and accept that not everyone will agree with everything Apple do, regardless of whether they use Apple products or not. When we're both on the same page in that respect, then we can talk.

 

[kresh]

being a licensed developer for Nintendo Wii and also iPhone I can tell you: Yes it's true, Nintendo has strict regulations. It is really not an easy task to pass Nintendos QA. But we are fine with that. We could develop for another platform if we wanted to. Of course customers can buy any other device if Nintendos restrictions do not allow anything they would like to have.

The first part of your post destroys the second part.

But Apple goes far beyond that. They try to use their controll over a leading mobile platform to change the way the web works. This does not only affect Apple customers and developers. Everyone who uses the web or develops for it is affected when in important player intentionally creates incompatibility with something that is well established. It is the same as the browser war 10 years ago.

If customers can choose not to buy a Nintendo product because restrictions prevented a developer from providing a game, what would prevent Apple's customers from not buying an Apple product if they feel like developers are too restricted.

It is not Apple destroying Flash, but the developer's desires to gain access to Apple's customers that they are starting to employ HTML5 or a custom app. These developers could just as easy say we are sticking with Flash, if you want access buy a different device.

 

[ranReloaded]

Hello,

being a licensed developer for Nintendo Wii and also iPhone I can tell you: Yes it's true, Nintendo has strict regulations. It is really not an easy task to pass Nintendos QA. But we are fine with that. We could develop for another platform if we wanted to. Of course customers can buy any other device if Nintendos restrictions do not allow anything they would like to have.

But Apple goes far beyond that. They try to use their controll over a leading mobile platform to change the way the web works. This does not only affect Apple customers and developers. Everyone who uses the web or develops for it is affected when in important player intentionally creates incompatibility with something that is well established. It is the same as the browser war 10 years ago.

Well, then I guess we should bash every other mobile platform that chooses NOT to incorporate Adobe's proprietary plugin, regardless any technical limitations. I'm sure the wii has Flash. How about the DS?

 

[*LTD*]

While Apple may not be in danger of becoming Microsoft they are in danger of pulling a Microsoft. From John Gruber:



The result of Google envy for Microsoft was the debacle known as Vista. It sure seems like Apple now has Google envy and is in danger of ignoring one of it's core businesses: OS X, Mac.

The more one hears about the iPad and mobile focus of Apple the more one can see that the likely delays in Mac Pro and MBP refreshes are not about chipset shortages or marketing but more about diverting resources and taking their eye off the ball. I wouldn't be surprised to see OS X's market share start dropping.

Apple's making a key transition here. They're among the first to start leaving behind the old "operating system on a computer" paradigm.

"OS X" will in time become the "iPhone OS" or the "iOS" - whatever they'll call it, and you'll see Apple develop the hell out of it. It'll get to a point where it will far outshine OS X in efficiency, scalability, and speed. "Notebooks" in time will look nothing like what we see now. Desktops in their current form will be dead. Retail outlets can hardly move them as it is.

We'll continue to see "Macs." But they'll be quite different. Apple isn't ignoring its Mac business. Apple is evolving it. I'm a bit surprised that Gruber isn't seeing the Big Picture here.

Risky. Ballsy. And incredibly inspiring. THIS is how the industry moves forward.