Fallout From Apple's Exclusion of Flash-to-iPhone Export Continues

[pubwvj]

From Brimelow's blog:
"Comments disabled as I’m not interested in hearing from the Cupertino Comment SPAM bots."

In other words, he doesn't want to hear any dissenting opinions or information. He knows he is write. Reality check: Brimelow is an official PR spinbot for Adobe. Of course he says bad things about Apple. Adobe has been hitting below the belt for a long time. They do have a vendetta.

Some of this goes back to the fact that they brought out updates to Photoshop and Illustrator for Windows and didn't release those for the Mac. They could be doing simultaneous releases. They chose not to. That pissed off a lot of people. Adobe's paying the price now.

I for one stopped buying their updates. They weren't offering much, they charge too much and the upgrades were a hassle to deal with.

As to Flash, it is a resource hog. That's a reality. It also makes browsers crash. That's a reality. Simple to test. I run all of our computers with Flash turned off except when I absolutely know I want it (very rare) and I know it will be on a well behaved site. It is all too easy for web developers to abuse Flash resources and crash the browser. Plus, Flash is mostly used, almost entirely used, for advertising and useless, gratuitous glitz. Try running with it turned off. The web is a faster experience and you miss little other than the ads.

I hope Apple continues to block Flash.

 

[Winni]

Typical lies:



No, there is indeed a rational defense for this stance: Flash is a proprietary standard controlled by a single company that Apple has no say over. HTML 5, in contrast, is an open standard that anyone can use.

Here's another rational defense: Unless you are very careful in your development, Flash is a resource hog that would downgrade many user's experiences. Moving to HMTL 5 is a better choice.

You may disagree with both thoughts, but they are not irrational even if you disagree. So he lied.

I disagree with both of your thoughts because you are talking about completely different things that have NOTHING to do with the iPhone SDK and those new restrictions.

If I wrote an application in, let's say, FreePascal, which is as much as purely compiled language as C or C++, I would not be allowed to publish it on the iPhone anymore.

Flash CS5 will also create statically compiled applications which behave in no way different than C++ applications.

And the same goes for Unity or MonoTouch or REALbasic (who are also working on an iPhone version of their product) applications. They are now all forbidden.

There is no rational or technological excuse for Apple's pathetic attempt at tyrannic control over their platform.

What Apple deserves is that all developers abandon ship and now exclusively write software for Android or Windows Mobile. Without developers, the iPhone will just die.

 

[FakeWozniak]

There are a lot of Unity and Torque developers with flaring tempers right now.

There was a party, and Apple may have just kicked out some amazing development platforms and developers who have already made incredible, successful apps.

Good point. You are right. I thought one of those generated C source code as output. It's a grey area since the Agreement says "originally written in c/c++/obj-c".

Maybe Unity and Torque will be "plus one's".

 

[oldwatery]

My favorite was "Comments disabled as I’m not interested in hearing from the Cupertino Comment SPAM bots."

So he's not interested in listening to anyone - just throwing out his tirade without regard to what the facts really are. My daughter was that way, too -- when she was 3.



The load of implementing multitasking isn't on the developer's shoulders. Apple rewrote the OS to support multitasking. Pandora said that it took just a few hours to put the correct hooks into their software. It's not unreasonable to ask developers to do that when a new feature is added to the OS. Otherwise, the OS developer would have to write everyone's software for them.



Considering that we're now near 3 years of the iPhone without Flash and 85 million users, I don't think it's going to hurt the iPad.

Further consider that there's not a single mobile platform that runs a full version of Flash or will open most Flash sites. It's not Apple's problem - it's that Flash is a fat, bloated pig that won't run on mobile processors.



Why do you expect that anyone will take you seriously when anyone who disagrees with you is a 'buffoon'?

The fact is that Flash stinks. If Adobe puts it onto jailbroken iPhones, it will continue to stink. The rest of the mobile world gets by just fine without Flash - why do you think that jailbroken iPhones would make it a huge success?



Go to www.webkinz.com and log in. CPU usage jumps way over 100% (dual core system).



Your Flash bias is showing.

1. HTML 5 only works on 8% of the Internet? Funny, but NONE of the mobile browsers support it.
2. Where's the evidence that 75% of games and 90% of videos require Flash? Youtube how has an html 5 version - along with zillions of other sites.

Funny how those same figures (both #1 and #2) show up everywhere but there's no original source. Do they come from the Adobe shill handbook?

3. html 5 can't do half of what Flash can do? Did you see the Toy Story iAd demo? Exactly what is it that Flash can do that html 5 can't do?
4. True. html 5 isn't a standard, but that doesn't mean it can't be used. 802.11n routers were in widespread use years before the standard was finalized.
Apple isn't telling ANYONE what they can use as a development tool. They're simply stating that they will only accept apps in the AppStore if they meet Apple's requirements. That's a vasty different story.



You're really confused about a lot of things, but the biggest one is that you do not become a monopoly just because Adobe doesn't like you. Apple is no where near a monopoly.



Adobe's free to put themselves out of business if they wish. Apple wouldn't have any problem duplicating the functionality before software already in the channel became obsolete.



Why is it that people insist on repeating this same stupid idea over and over? Adobe's revenues would drop by half overnight. Their overheads would not. Profitability would therefore drop by MORE than 50% (probably much more).

AND, since half of creative professionals are already using Macs, it would create one heck of an opening for a competitor. Apple did just fine with Final Cut - they could do the same with image editing.



Another person who's proudly showing the world that he doesn't know anything about antitrust law - and doesn't care who knows it.



I think that's what has Adobe so scared. 4 months ago, Youtube was cited as a big reason why Flash was necessary. It hardly took them any time to bring out an html 5 version of their site. Same with Hulu. And NY Times. Companies are showing how easy it is to bring out html 5 versions of these sites and Adobe is now in panic mode.



Yes, the statement would be that they want to see what the inside of a bankruptcy court looks like. Not a very wise move.



Feel free to create your own platform and you can do whatever you want.

Apple has chosen a different route. They've chosen to focus on usability and customer experience - and that requires some limitations on what developers can do. Apple customers seem pretty happy with that.



You'd be surprised. Even after years of Adobe favoring Windows (how long did the 64 bit version of Photoshop for Windows appear before the Mac version?), half of professional graphics are still done on Macs. The users who were going to switch would have done so by now.

If Adobe made an announcement today that CS5 would be their last Mac version, Apple would make an announcement tomorrow that they would have iPhoto Pro out in 12 months - and the majority of users would be happy with that.



Exactly. And they're not going to support all the new features, either.



Done. It's called xcode. The fact that it won't support YOUR language of choice doesn't change the fact that it supports multiple languages.

Brilliant post

 

[err404]

How is Apple going to know a program is cross compiled from Flash? Look for characteristics inside a given binary (ala virus detection techniques)? But that can easily be defeated by developers, by changing their binary just enough to hide it's origin. After all, the binary is just a big glob of machine code.

IIRC The developer submits the source, not the binary. I'm sure that all Adobe is doing this be creating a project template that includes a Flash VM and then including the SWF resource.
This is a tool aimed at Flash developers. Any developer with the skill to hide this would just write the app Objective C from the start.

 

[JosephBergdoll]

This is ****ing stupid. I know flash and I was actually really excited about this. Being a student of graphic design in college, I don't have time to learn objective-C but I've always wanted to build apps. This would've allowed me to do it, but Apple comes in here all high and mighty and gives a big "**** you" to Adobe (as usual). Why can't Apple do something right for the user for once, as opposed to always ensuring they have full control over their device?

I love their products but god dammit, I ****ing hate the company.

 

[*LTD*]

I hate it!

I do think that Apple is acting in a monopolistic, tyrannical way.

I wish that it had some measurably negative effect on me . . . but it doesn't. Now what?

 

[ranguvar]

Mkay, this is where the difference between a fanboy and a rationally thinking person comes through. What Apple does is just 100% anti-competitive. Even if many people (including myself) like their decision not to allow Flash and crApps in the AppStore.

 

[_Refurbished_]

This isn't about HTML5, and HTML5 itsn't useful for making App store content.
Perhaps you should post in a revelant thread.

This has everything to do with HTML5, directly or indirectly. Apple wants to keep Adobe technologies off their platform and I can understand why.

 

[Zc456]

This whole Flash nonsense has gotten extremely childish. Apple is trying to promote open standards, Flash is not. Why can't Adobe just let Apple go? Jeeze.

 

[matznentosh]

Quote:
The primary reason for the change, say sources familiar with Apple's plans, is to support sophisticated new multitasking APIs in iPhone 4.0. The system will now be evaluating apps as they run in order to implement smart multitasking. It can't do this if apps are running within a runtime or are cross compiled with a foreign structure that doesn't behave identically to a native C/C++/Obj-C app.

"[The operating system] can't swap out resources, it can't pause some threads while allowing others to run, it can't selectively notify, etc. Apple needs full access to a properly-compiled app to do the pull off the tricks they are with this new OS," wrote one reader under the name Ktappe."

Hmmm, won't the hundreds of thousands of apps on the current store not support multitasking? I don't really get Apple's approach here. Just take some games and don't let them multi-task, like they work now. You leave that game, it shuts down. it works perfectly fine currently.

Or is it simpler than that? Apple needs apps to work a certain way for iAd?

I wonder if there may be a real technical reason Apple may have with iPhone 4.0 multitasking that would require adhering to a specific compiler.

I'm thinking about the curious fact that the iPad is so fast even though the CPU is nothing special - how did Apple get it to run so fast? Perhaps the programming under the hood is extremely efficient.

That might mean that cross compiled programs that are mediocre, or even "good enough", may be unacceptably slow on the iPad in the future.

Most people on this thread seem to acknowledge that Apple might have some technical reason for the requirement but then dismiss it as an unimportant aspect of the topic; but we all know Steve's demand for perfection, maybe it's just not possible with this system to have fast programs that don't use the required programming steps.

 

[Reach]

This is not really on Apple, but on Adobe.

They used to be my favorite software-company, making great software that progressed and was made for the mac.

Now, what developments in their apps have really been important? They just keep bloating their software and focus on ******** features like being able to make Flash with InDesign..

And their mac-support? Used to be great, now the PC-versions of the apps are better. We get 64-bit PS soon, PC has had it for quite some time now. CS3 doesn't support Snow Leopard! Really? Flash is awful on Mac. Apart from crashes it jumpstarts the fans on my portable just from the ads I get.. Just because Adobe has "fixed" this in a a new beta doesn't mean they are serious about delivering quality on the mac.

I still like Adobes software, but I can't say I admire them or like where they are going. The last good thing they did was making InDesign a great app, which killed Quark, and I'll continue using their apps until someone else (or Adobe) realizes Adobe has lost a lot of momentum.

 

[bengst]

Typical lies:



No, there is indeed a rational defense for this stance: Flash is a proprietary standard controlled by a single company that Apple has no say over. HTML 5, in contrast, is an open standard that anyone can use.

Here's another rational defense: Unless you are very careful in your development, Flash is a resource hog that would downgrade many user's experiences. Moving to HMTL 5 is a better choice.

You may disagree with both thoughts, but they are not irrational even if you disagree. So he lied.

Are we talking about HTML5 vs Flash?

NO. This is about Flash iPhone packager (and other 3rd party framework/SDK) banned from being compiled natively into iDevices!

and.. could you explain to me, what you mean by "Flash being proprietary standard in contrast to HTML5, an open standard that anyone can use??" Because honestly I don't get it.

 

[*LTD*]

What Apple deserves is that all developers abandon ship and now exclusively write software for Android or Windows Mobile. Without developers, the iPhone will just die.

Again, you're talking nonsense. Most of the developers are *with* Apple, mostly because people love Apple products like nothing else. It's where the money is.

 

[bushido]

this is just perfect

http://www.cracked.com/article_18377_5-reasons-you-should-be-scared-apple.htm

but maybe the wrong place to post it LOL (p.s. i love my mbp)

 

[e3boy9876]

Apple Inc.
Market Cap: 219.25B

Adobe Systems Incorporated
Market Cap: 18.59B

I wonder, how much of that APPL market cap is based on Steve being alive.
If he died tomorrow, it would be cut in half on Monday.
The man still looks sickly thin.

 

[PERydell2]

Hypocrite

The trouble is that we will never hear their discontent because Apple employees are forbidden from blogging, posting to social networks, or other things that we at companies with an open culture take for granted.

This is too funny considering his blog was censored by Adobe.

 

[JonKean]

IIRC The developer submits the source, not the binary. I'm sure that all Adobe is doing this be creating a project template that includes a Flash VM and then including the SWF resource.
This is a tool aimed at Flash developers. Any developer with the skill to hide this would just write the app Objective C from the start.

Nope, Apple takes only the compiled binary (with source code nowhere to be found). An official policy against Flash cross compilation will stop a lot of people, but I fail to see how Apple can truly prevent pervasive people from using it anyways.

 

[Winni]

Apple aren't implementing Flash for one simple reason: Stability.

Why do you think they updated Safari so that when "plug-ins like Flash" don't work properly, they won't bring down the whole program?...

Apple don't want to see their iPhones/iPod Touches riddled with apps that are unstable or don't operate well. Thats at least a descent side of the argument - the bad side is that Adobe think Apple are complete c0ck ends and are taking the relationship to boiling point.

Does anyone here remember 'that' Keynote from 1997, when Steve Jobs suggested that "Apple and Adobe should be doing more together... When was the last time Apple said to Adobe 'Hey - how can we make you programs run better on our machines?'". Gee, let me think... I can't remember!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEHNrqPkefI (link to MacWorld 97)

Apple want so much control over their applications, yet they're not willing to liase with Adobe. And Adobe, in turn, are not helping... It's all one big mess.

Apple should be concentrating on being original and doing what they do best. Even going developers like Adobe and asking how they can get their software to perform better than Windows machines.

They should be concentrating on a smaller hardware base, too, instead of all this consumer crap that merely blurs the distinctions between the platforms in the first place.

You are in the wrong discussion. This has nothing to do with the current subject. You are talking about web and browser technologies while this topic is only about native application development and alternative development tools for that purpose.

 

[wilhoitm]

Off topic iPad Wi-Fi + 3G question!

If you get two iPad Wi-Fi + 3Gs, do you have to pay the associated AT&T 3G data plan twice for each iPad 3G?

PS. With respect to Adobe! I replaced Photoshop with Pixelmator a long time ago! Pixelmator is not as good but it does the job and it costs a lot less!

Marcus

 

[*LTD*]

this is just perfect

http://www.cracked.com/article_18377_5-reasons-you-should-be-scared-apple.htm

but maybe the wrong place to post it LOL (p.s. i love my mbp)

Might be relevant if people didn't keep buying Apple products in droves. Apparently they should be scared. But instead they're loving their Macs, iPods, iPhones, and now their iPads.

We cant have THAT, now can we?!

 

[goobot]

this is pretty bad. flash in a app aint going to hurt apple. actually help apps be better. yet they want to kill flash and do this. i can understand them not wanting it in the os but really apple? a person cant have flash in there app?

 

[TurboSC]

we shall see how things pan out... even people in the Unity community are riled up about it... Tread carefully Apple, you could potentially turn off and anger a lot of developers... and the last time I checked, Games make up the majority of apps on your store...

 

[Crackbone]

You are in the wrong discussion. This has nothing to do with the current subject. You are talking about web and browser technologies while this topic is only about native application development and alternative development tools for that purpose.

It's too late, the Flash vs HTML5 debate will infect anything to do with Apple v Adobe.

On another note, this sucks for those using cross compilers, but if I recall correctly, Apple's been pretty straight forward in advising against their use.

I understand the hostility, we have those who's livelihoods are threatened to a degree by this, however, bottom line is, it's Apple's call to make.

However, I'd advise beginning to brush up on Objective C.

If I'm Adobe, I'm ******** my pants.

 

[EnderTW]

Adobe pull your products from apple. Including flash. Then see how they will cry.