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deal with it.:cool:

They already have. This is just more bread and a lie of circus proportion to distract you. Only a dullard would believe the company spin and that this encryption bypasses the government's ability to know exactly what you are doing, storing, and your location via your smart phone :)apple: or otherwise).

Wake up, people.
 
They already have. This is just more bread and a lie of circus proportion to distract you. Only a dullard would believe the company spin and that this encryption bypasses the government's ability to know exactly what you are doing, storing, and your location via your smart phone :)apple: or otherwise).

Wake up, people.

This is likely true. Also, Apple likely doesn't have to provide access to your data, the NSA surely can access it without them even knowing.
 
Why is it that all these FBI/NSA guys always bring up some ultimate bomb/kidnapper/terrorist scenario? Where the bomb is always ticking or the victim only has 2 hours left to live? I think these guys watched a little too much of the TV series "24." After all that we now know (thanks to Edward Snowden and The Guardian) why in the world would we ever trust these guys with something like what he is purposing ever again? You want something that will let someone else into my device just in the off chance that a bomber/kidnapper might one day have the nuclear codes to shut down a bomb? Sorry Jack Bauer.
 
I'm not certain but isn't it the case that if you deny an officer the ability to carry out a warrant you would be arrested? It also seems that you would be held in jail until you provided them the access required within the restrictions of the warrant. I'm pretty sure they could act on the warrant one way or another but I'm no lawyer and don't know. This encryption makes it such that they have to come to ME with the warrant demanding access to MY data. It seems fair.

I believe you could be held in contempt, which might be a better option if the search would reveal evidence of a more serious crime or implicated others whom you were trying to protect. Whether the search involves data or anything else, law enforcement already has to come to you with a warrant. This is what the Supreme Court decided earlier this year.
 
Patriot act happened under Republicans. Privacy violations are a bipartisan affair.


I'm not suggesting Republicans are innocent, but we have a democrat in office, under his 2nd term, and to date I am unaware of any efforts to repeal the Patriot act. Or, to even push back against it from any of our Democrat leaders.

If you are aware of any efforts, a URL would sure be appreciated.
 
Newsflash. FBI now s***ting their pants as iOS and apple doesn't open the door to them spying on everyone.
 
Apple is now the most secure and private smartphone choice.
Soon it will be the most secure and private contact-less payment system...

Look for Apple to lead the way in privacy and security in the coming years!!

That is an illusion. Don't be deceived by this smokescreen. If they want your data, they'll get your data.
 
And what happens if they do get a warrant and the suspect refuses to unlock their device? That is the issue.

If the police have a warrant to search my house, they have a variety of means to gain entry if I do not unlock the door.

Hell, if I own a safe and the government has a warrant, safe manufacturers will assist in opening the safe.

Then the suspect is going to jail until they do unlock it and the data is irrelevant.
 
If he supports the 4th Amendment (like he says he does), then he needs to get a warrant and serve it to the suspect, to have their device unlocked. Apple is not the suspect in any investigation like he describes.

When a law enforcement agency has a warrant, they are allowed to not only serve it to the suspect, but to anyone who can get them access. This has always been true. If we are talking about someone's apartment, they can go to the landlord, show the warrant, and gain access and be 100% compliant with the constitution.

I feel like Apple's reaction to encrypt devices so that no one other than the user themselves can unlock them is laudable in some ways after PRISM etc, but may be a little too much of a knee-jerk reaction and maybe moved the needle too far the other way. His points regarding kidnappers, etc, is 100% correct. If the only person that can unlock a device is the suspect itself, then can't the suspect refuse to unlock the device when served with that warrant on 5th amendment grounds? A kidnapper, terrorist, etc, could have vital information on that device and there is literally no way to get at it other than brute forcing the encryption. I have kids, and I am loathe to think of the cops not being able to save my kid because we've allowed a criminal to hide behind privacy laws.

We need to re-enforce privacy laws and move the line back... I'm just not sure if it should be quite this far.
 
i have nothing to hide...

Then you need to see Hitchcock's The Wrong Man. It's a true story of a man falsely accused of robbery. He chooses to cooperate with the police, because he has nothing to hide. Then he makes the same spelling mistake the robber made in the note. After being picked out of a police lineup by the women from the insurance company, he is then arrested and charged with robbery.
 
Why is it that all these FBI/NSA guys always bring up some ultimate bomb/kidnapper/terrorist scenario? Where the bomb is always ticking or the victim only has 2 hours left to live? I think these guys watched a little too much of the TV series "24." After all that we now know (thanks to Edward Snowden and The Guardian) why in the world would we ever trust these guys with something like what he is purposing ever again? You want something that will let someone else into my device just in the off chance that a bomber/kidnapper might one day have the nuclear codes to shut down a bomb? Sorry Jack Bauer.

If you've been following the news about a girl from UVA who's been kidnapped, you would be aware of the scenario where the police believe the kidnapped girl is still out there and they are desperately trying to find her.
 
What happens when you have a Progressive-D vs. a Progressive-R*?

The Progressive wins.

*the original Progressive Party - Teddy Roosevelt was the founder of the Progressive Party in the US, and ran on that ticket in 1912

Progressives won't get the nomination from their own party these days.
 
Answer: yes. That's not a fifth amendment issue.

On what are you basing your answer? Because I'm thinking of the "link in the chain" doctrine, see Hoffman v. United States, 341 U.S. 479, 486 (1951), which holds that the 5th Amendment privilege applies when the answer to a question might "furnish a link in the chain of evidence" against that person.

In United States v. Hubbell , 530 U.S. 27 (2000), the Court explained that although being compelled to turn over incriminating material does not implicate the 5th Amendment (because creation of the material was not compelled), the "the act of producing documents in response to a subpoena may have a compelled testimonial aspect" and therefore be subject to the 5th Amendment because the mere act of production communicates implied statements of fact ("I know what these documents are, they are in my possession, and they are authentic").

Now, it's different with a cell phone (or any computer) because we're not talking about turning over physical pages but only an unlock code. I can see how that distinction MIGHT change the answer, but it seems to me a debatable point -- unless you know something I don't?

Wikipedia (for what that's worth) also indicates that there is no unanimity in the courts on this point:
Computer passwords[edit]
Courts have given conflicting decisions on whether forced disclosure of computer passwords is a violation of the Fifth Amendment.

In In re Boucher (2009), the US District Court of Vermont ruled that the Fifth Amendment might protect a defendant from having to reveal an encryption password, or even the existence of one, if the production of that password could be deemed a self-incriminating "act" under the Fifth Amendment. In Boucher, production of the unencrypted drive was deemed not to be a self-incriminating act, as the government already had sufficient evidence to tie the encrypted data to the defendant.[69]

In January 2012 a federal judge in Denver ruled that a bank-fraud suspect was required to give an unencrypted copy of a laptop hard drive to prosecutors.[70][71] However, in February 2012 the Eleventh Circuit ruled otherwise - finding that requiring a defendant to produce an encrypted drive's password would violate the Constitution, becoming the first federal circuit court to rule on the issue.[72][73] In April 2013, a District Court magistrate judge in Wisconsin refused to compel a suspect to provide the encryption password to his hard drive after FBI agents had unsuccessfully spent months trying to decrypt the data.[74][75]

If you're aware of current case law resolving this issue definitively, I'd be very interested to read it!

----------

Then the suspect is going to jail until they do unlock it and the data is irrelevant.

I wouldn't say it's irrelevant, even if they sit in jail indefinitely. There's a difference, legally speaking, and to us as a society, between a person sitting in jail indefinitely for refusing to comply with a court order, and a person being convicted of <insert terrible crime here> because police found evidence of <terrible crime> sufficient to convict them.

Yes, the end result may look the same -- defendant sitting in jail -- but I don't think we as a society should view those two outcomes as equivalent, and I certainly don't think the victim of a crime (who never gets to see the defendant tried and convicted for the offense charged) would see them as equivalent.

In the first case, you'd undoubtably have people who viewed the defendant as a martyr of sorts, standing up for privacy. Moreover, he'd never be a convicted felon, with its attendant stigma, and the victims would never have the vindication of testifying, making an impact statement, and having a judge or jury saying "you, sir, are found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of <committing terrible crime>."
 
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In short, Apple and Google are taking it upon themselves to shut that back door, change the lock, and destroy the key, so they don't even have the ability to unlock the door.

BL.

This is true but the fallacy of it is that Apple and Google are not really doing this for us or the Constitution.

They just don't want the government and consumers breathing down their necks. Both for different reasons, obviously. "Don't ask me no questions and I'll tell you no lies." They wash their hands of it, so the consumers are happy and the government's won't strong arm them into violating our rights. It's a win-win but we, the people, must remain vigilant or government and big corporations will roll over us. Boiling frog syndrome...

Now, be like a real American, go buy a gun and learn how to use it. The government must fear us again... I want them to lose sleep over me and my freedom, not the other way around.
 
i have nothing to hide...

Then you're hiding at least one thing: you're lying.

Your PIN, your credit card number, your iCloud password, your children's names, schools and timetables...

If you're happy for your entire life to be unprotected and public record, then tell us your real name, address and phone number right here to prove I'm wrong.
 
He says we shouldn't be above the law, but he believes that he himself and the FBI should be. If he wants my information on my phone, he can get a warrant.
 
The FBI (and NSA, etc.) lost the plot a LONG time ago.

I applaud Apple and Google for providing perfectly reasonable privacy tools. If the Bureau can't read it, get a warrant and go back to real police work. And if something terrible does happen, like a kidnapping, that is the price of some vestiges of liberty and privacy.
 
If the government only wanted access to phones when there was a kidnapping or a terror threat, I wouldn't have a problem. But we've seen that they try to hack phones for nefarious purposes, so they really don't have any credibility. I mean, when the US government is listening in on Angela Merkel more than Jihadi John, we might be justified in having trust issues.
 
Now, be like a real American, go buy a gun and learn how to use it. The government must fear us again... I want them to lose sleep over me and my freedom, not the other way around.
Please explain how owning a gun and knowing how to use it would protect you from unlawful search and seizure. The US Constitution was written at a time search and seizure was physical, with actual soldiers performing it.

If you're happy for your entire life to be unprotected and public record, then tell us your real name, address and phone number right here to prove I'm wrong.
Ironically that's what they do in Finland. Everything about citizens is public record, and anyone can ask for it.

If the government only wanted access to phones when there was a kidnapping or a terror threat, I wouldn't have a problem. But we've seen that they try to hack phones for nefarious purposes, so they really don't have any credibility. I mean, when the US government is listening in on Angela Merkel more than Jihadi John, we might be justified in having trust issues.
The point is, they never arrested any significant number of terrorists thanks to these programs. They weren't able to stop Boston's bombings. Or any shootout post 9/11. While hundreds of TSA agents were fired for stealing in passenger's bag, and the NSA & friends collecting data on millions of innocent people, Americans and foreigners alike. They want to inspire fear to the people and expect docility from the masses, while criminals still wander around undeterred.
 
Please explain how owning a gun and knowing how to use it would protect you from unlawful search and seizure. The US Constitution was written at a time search and seizure was physical, with actual soldiers performing it.

If you don't understand, no amount of explaining will help.
 
The problem is, since the furore in the '90s about encryption and the Clipper chip,

According to Wikipedia, the clipper chip was announced in 1993 and defunct by 1996. I followed the whole clipper chip fiasco, but I'm not aware of it ever being deployed. I supose that it was used somewhere, or at least tested.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_chip

I don't think anyone has come up with a way to give people complete security AND to allow a legal search with a warrant without compromising the security of all.

several lifetimes ago I worked in security, and there was never any mindset of complete security. Once someone has intercepted your cyphertext transmission, they can immediately begin chipping away and working to decrypt your data. Encryption that was estimated to take decades to decrypt with 1980's and early 1990's technology is childs play with current technology.

The thing encryption buys you is time. The longer it takes to decrypt your data, and presumably the older your data is, the less valuable your data is. Once your (encrypted) data has been intercepted, and the interceptor is determined to crack it, its typically just a matter of time.

Should you wind up the focus of a TLA govt agency, its easy to assume that they have significantly more resources to aim at you, vs hobbyist on the Internet who dabble in this for fun and personal education.
 
I'm not suggesting Republicans are innocent, but we have a democrat in office, under his 2nd term, and to date I am unaware of any efforts to repeal the Patriot act. Or, to even push back against it from any of our Democrat leaders.

If you are aware of any efforts, a URL would sure be appreciated.

Like I said, it's a bipartisan affair. Republicans haven't tried to repeal it either. I'm not a fan of either party. Honestly, I tend to feel conservative on many issues, but the people the party ends up nominating are just too extreme for my tastes
 
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