FBI Director 'Not Trying to Set Precedent' With iPhone Unlock Demand

[macs4nw]

At this point, if Apple were to allow the FBI to come to the office in Cuppertino, install some special version of iOS on to this one particular iPhone, get the information off, and then destroy that iOS...I'd still feel pretty darn good about my privacy. If the precedent that gets set is that it takes a court order and a lengthy public debate to get into an iPhone then that might not be the worst thing in the world. I don't trust the FBI, but I do trust Apple. I think there has to be a reasonable compromise here. Just knowing that all of this is what it takes to get past my passcode makes me feel warm and fuzzy about the security of the hundreds of pictures I've taken of my dog and the text messages between me and my wife.
Orrrrrr, maybe I'm being naive and I need to be more concerned about how slippery the slope can get.

You hit the nail on the head with your last line. There's no going back once 'the genie is out of the bottle'.

 

[Jess13]

Declassify the 28 Pages or shut the F up.

 

[oneMadRssn]

Just to play devils advocate. The other precedent is, "Global corporation decides they are above the law, snubs FBI request” ?

I always appreciate a good devils advocate arguement. In a way, we are voting for or against Apple every day. Every time i purchase an app on the app store, use applepay, buy a new apple device, or otherwise use an apple product, i am supporting apple by voting with my wallet. Someone who disagrees with apple on this issue is free to move to a competitor instantly. In this sense, the process is very democratic with constant voting (except only people with money can vote in this view, but thats a seperate issue).

The FBI is very non-democratic. They are a law enforcement agency run by someone who is appointed by the president and confirmed by the senate. At best, they are three abstract steps away from voters. In reality, that seperation between voters and FBI leadership is bigger than the grand canyon.

It usually falls on the citizen with the best means to defend everyones' rights in court. In this case, that citizen is Apple and i will continue to vote for them with my wallet for doing so. I usually disagree with the statement that corporations are people, but in this case i think it is appropriate to say that this corporation is at least run by not just any person but a patriot.

 

[TonyC28]

You hit the nail on the head with your last line. There's no going back once 'the genie is out of the bottle'.

But the FBI is offering to allow Apple to control the genie and then kill it when they're done with it. Sure, it would prove that it is technically possible to get past iPhone security, but they've already admitted that anyway.
[doublepost=1456149497][/doublepost]

Opposition to government abuses is quite literally the fundamental principle upon which this country was founded. Rosa Parks must have decided she was "above the law" too.
[doublepost=1456148647][/doublepost]


The problem is that this is not about the San Bernardino attack. The FBI has been making an aggressive push for backdoors recently. NY and CA both introduced bills that would outright ban phones without backdoored (and thus fundamentally broken) encryption. We know the NSA has gone so far as to subvert encryption standards with DUAL_EC_DRBG and then pay RSA Security to surreptitiously make it the default PRNG in their BSafe library. It's been just ridiculous in the last couple years.

The FBI has jumped on this case to try to do what they have been trying to do for years. Never waste a crisis. It will not end with the San Bernardino case because that's not what it's about. It's only the beginning.

But what they're asking is very specifically about this one iPhone used by one of the San Bernadino shooters. I can understand your point though that this will lead to other requests. And as long as the FBI has to very publicly jump through hoops like they are now then I still feel good using my iPhone.

 

[albusseverus]

That sounds like hyperbole.

Let's also remember that proceedings took place and a legitimate court order was ultimately issued and not a summary attack on peoples' rights, there was legitimate reason about the owner of the phone and it wasn't because he jaywalked across the street.

…

I will not sign the petition.

Especially as if this happened last decade when we were told "You are either with us or you are with the terrorists" and Obama did not rescind what George W Bush said because we're still a post-9/11 world...

This line is being pushed by a lot of people. Thankfully there's a judicial process to test the legitimacy of the court's decision. It is only one opinion and the world is much wider than that. Apple would do well to prosecute this to the fullest extent of the law.

As for The Director, Methinks he doth protest too much. It is his ONLY intention.
He thought going public with this and playing on the fear would garner public support for giving up all privacy. Apple has called his bluff and started publicly revealing the steps the FBI took to CREATE this false situation. The FBI has no case and they know it, that's why they created this BS scenario and went public with it to try to force Apple in the court of public opinion - you know, where Trump is king.

And don't count on your politicians and judges to stand up for you. They all have FBI files inches thick, with photographs and recordings if they ever step out of line.

Fact is, law enforcement has had complete access to all communications, with or without warrant since the invention of the telegraphy. Encryption is anathema to their very existence as they see it. Nobody has a right to privacy in their eyes. The people never had it and they're not going to have it now. Let's not forget the FBI's penchant for corruption and blackmail that caused the tenure of the Director of FBI to be limited in the first place. This overreach is a perfect example of the FBI's god complex.

This IS the most important issue of our time.

You carry your life in your pocket. This is the equivalent of giving the FBI the keys to your home, medical records, financial records, personal life, professional life and political life… and much more. If you think they can be trusted with this, take a look at how they've been treating mentally ill Muslims, giving them money to buy guns, taking them to firing ranges… then arresting them as terroists (search for the TED Talk on this).

You are one step away from becoming a pawn in the FBI's political game. Act now.

 

[CaTOAGU]

It doesn't matter, it will set a precedent and he knows it.

 

[Benjamin Frost]

Comey is not fit for his job.

He seems to have forgotten, as have the US government under Obama, that the US is not a totalitarian state. If the government try to force through their demands on Apple, they should be overthrown by any means. The US government has betrayed the Constitution and has shown that it is not fit for office. Revolution may be needed to rid the States of this cancer.

 

[Chatter]

That sounds like hyperbole.

Let's also remember that proceedings took place and a legitimate court order was ultimately issued and not a summary attack on peoples' rights, there was legitimate reason about the owner of the phone and it wasn't because he jaywalked across the street.

Taking in one phone is not opening up the whole ecosystem unless Apple screwed up its design.

The double standards set by Apple (and other companies supporting it) about private data collection - remember when it was revealed Siri uploads recorded voice to a server farm instead of converting it locally on the phone and people got their chicken little hats on? But that's one issue of many.

I will not sign the petition.

Especially as if this happened last decade when we were told "You are either with us or you are with the terrorists" and Obama did not rescind what George W Bush said because we're still a post-9/11 world...

So I am no expert and therefore read experts talking about this stuff. What the FBI is demanding in the court order (not public statements) is actually "entire ecosystem" related and not specific to ONE phone. Read the entire court document and you will find that they actually want this ability opened through wifi and bluetooth. Ask yourself, why? If it is only one phone, why would you want that? Plug and play right?

I would suggest checking out Wired and even TechCrunch today. Maybe it will help you see things differently?

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

How do you know this is about beating on Apple?

Because Comey says it isn't...

In a decaying democracy, it seems that anything that can provide any security from the government is something to be attacked and destroyed. Ford forbid that we put a lock on our underwear drawer...

Why, it's almost like COINTELPRO never happened.

 

[H2SO4]

They have a preliminary judgment with a request for information. From a magistrate. No need to pretend like this is an order coming from the almighty here.

You again, I even emboldened and italicised the word IF but you still had to add your $0.02

To quote Apple directly;
The United States government has demanded that Apple take an unprecedented step which threatens the security of our customers. We oppose this order, which has implications far beyond the legal case at hand. ………...

 

[jclardy]

Sorry, but they think that the majority of American's are technologically illiterate. They aren't going to "guess" anything, they are literally going to have this phone hooked up to a computer that will go through every pincode combination possible until they get in (Which isn't possible now, because of increasing input timeouts and eventual erasure). They aren't breaking encryption - sure, but they are circumventing it which makes it pointless in the first place.

 

[H2SO4]

Well, were not quite there yet, but let me ask you, are you willing to have all your privately stored data, incl. banking info, or perhaps details about your political inclinations, sexual preferences, employment history, marital woes, calendars perhaps with appointments alluding to health problems (perhaps even mental health), etc, etc, hacked into by not only US authorities but literally anyone in the world?

Apple's pride and joy is the security of their hardware, software and services, evidenced by features such as strong encryption, Passcodes, Activation Lock, Touch ID-the most technologically advanced fingerprint security, Two-step verification, and the as yet unassailed Secure Enclave in iPhones, the latter the main reason so many retailers and (usually conservative and slow to come on board) banks have seen the 'light' that as far as security is concerned, ApplePay was the way to go, and this despite the fact joining and accepting ApplePay would cost them more.

Companies manufacturing desktops, laptops, tablets and smartphones are a dime a dozen, but none have the (deserved) security reputation that Apple enjoys.

You don't expect them to roll over and give away the farm, without putting up a good fight first, do you?

Their security reputation is one of the major cornerstones of their business.

To answer your question directly, I wouldn’t be happy about it and would say no for as long as I could. Also I suspect that a lot of the people at this link felt the same as you did at one point. (This is why it needs to be discussed deeply without a load of that heart strings tugging crap both sides are putting forward).
But once I’ve been handed my writ……

That said, all over the world you know that half of these people are on Facebook/Twitter giving away the secrets of themselves and family and friends without permission. Can’t say how annoyed I was to find that a friend of mine had plastered photos of me all over Facebook which are then of given names and details by others.
In addition, you know that ISPs/Telecoms everywhere have to keep years of emails, call records and internet browsing records for everybody right?

How much privacy do you think you have left?

 

[Carlanga]

Just to play devils advocate. The other precedent is, "Global corporation decides they are above the law, snubs FBI request” ?

What law specifically?

----------------

FBI probably has more than one backdoor already in their software warehouse and they use it without having the public knowing. But if they use it right now then they would have to say said backdoor exists and they have one or more of them.

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

Comey is not fit for his job.

He seems to have forgotten, as have the US government under Obama, that the US is not a totalitarian state. If the government try to force through their demands on Apple, they should be overthrown by any means. The US government has betrayed the Constitution and has shown that it is not fit for office. Revolution may be needed to rid the States of this cancer.

Is it a 'totalitarian state headed by a black president', or a case where the spies in the government are overplaying their hand to nail a scalp on their wall. Making the 'unbreakable' breakable, is quite a feather in someone's cap...

We know, since Bush/Cheney, that the spies have been very active essentially hacking everything, and even exploiting zero day flaws without notifying the industry. What we have is an overactive, and overreaching security apparatus that is running on a long leash. A leash that Obama did not loosen, but did nothing to tighten.

But I can see the problem with hard unbreakable encryption, but there are so many ways to avoid exposure...

It also does make me wonder just how unbreakable the Apple iOS ecosystem really is.

 

[2984839]

But what they're asking is very specifically about this one iPhone used by one of the San Bernadino shooters. I can understand your point though that this will lead to other requests. And as long as the FBI has to very publicly jump through hoops like they are now then I still feel good using my iPhone.

But in this case, it's protected by only a 4 digit PIN, which means there is no real protection against brute force once the 10 guess limit and time delays are removed. What happens next time when a bad guy uses a 15+ digit passphrase and the FBI can't brute force it? They will immediately demand that the encryption itself be backdoored, and we're back to the Clipper Chip debacle of the 90's. This is something they have already demanded.

2011: FBI Director Robert Mueller vists Silicon Valley campaigning for backdoors -- https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2011/10/fbi-sponsored_b.html

September 2014: Justice Department has a conniption over Apple's and Google's new encryption schemes in iOS and Android -- https://www.techdirt.com/articles/2...-decision-to-encrypt-phone-info-default.shtml

September 2014: FBI Director James Comey says the FBI has had contact with Apple and Google about encryption. As a bonus, John Escalante, chief of detectives for the Chicago PD, says the iPhone will be the phone of choice for pedophiles -- https://www.washingtonpost.com/news.../09/26/the-phone-of-choice-for-the-pedophile/

October 2014: FBI Director James Comey speaks at the Brookings Institution hinting that "the administration might seek regulations and laws forcing companies to create a way for the government to unlock the photos, emails and contacts stored on the phone" -- http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/17/u...-devices-hindrance-to-crime-solving.html?_r=0

October 2014: For the first time in over a decade since the crypto export regulations were revised, a company was fined, fundamentally changing how the rule is enforced -- https://www.bis.doc.gov/index.php/a...0-penalty-for-unauthorized-encryption-exports

related to the above: http://www.goodwinprocter.com/Publi...on-Exports-May-Be-Treated-More-Seriously.aspx

This is just a small piece of the larger context in which we must place the FBI's comments. The San Bernardino attack is only a pretext. I will post some more links when I get the chance.

 

[iBreatheApple]

"Don't want to RELEASE a master key..." Choice wording. They don't want to release a master key but they want one.

 

[tgara]

But the FBI is offering to allow Apple to control the genie and then kill it when they're done with it. Sure, it would prove that it is technically possible to get past iPhone security, but they've already admitted that anyway.

......

But what they're asking is very specifically about this one iPhone used by one of the San Bernadino shooters. I can understand your point though that this will lead to other requests. And as long as the FBI has to very publicly jump through hoops like they are now then I still feel good using my iPhone.

Everyone is forgetting that prior to iOS8, Apple routinely cooperated with legal warrants and requests from law enforcement to unlock specific iPhones in about 70 instances. The situation with this iPhone 5c is exactly the same as those previous 70 instances. However, prior to iOS8, Apple could use, and did use, its own "key" to open the phone and bypass the password because the encryption was different. With iOS8, Apple doesn't have that "key" anymore, so the FBI and law enforcement need Apples assistance to bypass the passcode and access the contents on the phone. The newest encryption on iOS8 and iOS9 prevents it.

Precedent? Yeah, it's already been set. By Apple and their previous willingness to assist. The legal standards, requests, and safeguards have NOT changed. The ONLY thing that's changed is the operating system and the type of encryption.

I think Apple is ultimately going to lose this one. And if they continue to fight the FBI in this very public way, lawmakers are going to note their intransigence and pass laws that will force Apple (and many other tech companies) to provide access when requested by a Court order. I'd rather not see that happen. Apple should stop fighting and work quietly with the FBI to resolve this like they have in the past.

 

[throAU]

you can tell he's lying because his lips are moving...

 

[TonyC28]

Everyone is forgetting that prior to iOS8, Apple routinely cooperated with legal warrants and requests from law enforcement to unlock specific iPhones in about 70 instances. The situation with this iPhone 5c is exactly the same as those previous 70 instances. However, prior to iOS8, Apple could use, and did use, its own "key" to open the phone and bypass the password because the encryption was different. With iOS8, Apple doesn't have that "key" anymore, so the FBI and law enforcement need Apples assistance to bypass the passcode and access the contents on the phone. The newest encryption on iOS8 and iOS9 prevents it.

Precedent? Yeah, it's already been set. By Apple and their previous willingness to assist. The ONLY thing that's changed is the operating system and the type of encryption.

I think Apple is ultimately going to lose this one. And if they continue to fight the FBI in this very public way, lawmakers are going to note their intransigence and pass laws that will force Apple (and many other tech companies) to provide access when requested by a Court order. I'd rather not see that happen. Apple should stop fighting and work quietly with the FBI to resolve this like they have in the past.

This is disagree with. When Apple complied before didn't they already have the means to do it? Now they are being asked to create the means to do it. Very different scenarios in my opinion.

 

[nt5672]

At some point you have to go with basic instinct. Do I trust Apple or the FBI more. Well, and I am sorry to say this, but I trust Apple more. Not really because of anything Apple has done to earn it, but because the FBI and this government, in general, including the President, Congress, Republicans and Democrats has lost my trust completely. They don't want to uphold the Constitution, they don't want to protect my privacy, they do want to take my hard earned money, they have or are destroyed the middle class, all in the name of power and greed. While it has always been this way, we have reached the point where it is no longer acceptable. We need to limit government power at every chance. if we don't then we will continue to slowly lose all of our freedoms unless blood is shed. This has been the process of freedom for 1000s of years of history.

 

[Ovedius]

Who would not trust a face like this?
Honestly the most trustworthy dead eyed lizard wearing a human skin suit I've ever seen.

 

[rdowns]

Everyone is forgetting that prior to iOS8, Apple routinely cooperated with legal warrants and requests from law enforcement to unlock specific iPhones in about 70 instances. The situation with this iPhone 5c is exactly the same as those previous 70 instances. However, prior to iOS8, Apple could use, and did use, its own "key" to open the phone and bypass the password because the encryption was different. With iOS8, Apple doesn't have that "key" anymore, so the FBI and law enforcement need Apples assistance to bypass the passcode and access the contents on the phone. The newest encryption on iOS8 and iOS9 prevents it.

Precedent? Yeah, it's already been set. By Apple and their previous willingness to assist. The ONLY thing that's changed is the operating system and the type of encryption.

I think Apple is ultimately going to lose this one. And if they continue to fight the FBI in this very public way, lawmakers are going to note their intransigence and pass laws that will force Apple (and many other tech companies) to provide access when requested by a Court order. I'd rather not see that happen. Apple should stop fighting and work quietly with the FBI to resolve this like they have in the past.

http://techcrunch.com/2016/02/18/no-apple-has-not-unlocked-70-iphones-for-law-enforcement/

 

[tgara]

This is disagree with. When Apple complied before didn't they already have the means to do it? Now they are being asked to create the means to do it. Very different scenarios in my opinion.

That is true, Apple did have the key prior to iOS8, and they do not have one now for iOS8 and 9. But doing that was Apple's choice. Some call it a "marketing strategy", some call it an increased level of privacy in a world where hacking is becoming more routine. But whatever you call it, that's where we are now.

With an update to its iOS software, Apple switched off its ability to retrieve data from its phones and tablets. By doing this, Apple tried to take itself out of the equation when law enforcement is looking for access to a phone. Essentially, the company could no longer fulfill a request because it was technically unable to do so. But the law surrounding searches, seizures and requests for assistance from law enforcement have not changed. Apple still must comply with those. And that's why the situation is what it is now. So yeah, in order to comply with legal requests, Apple will have to make a version of the iOS that can be accessed by law enforcement.

Remember, two years ago, nobody was making any of the current "sky is falling" arguments, and the iOS was less secure.

 

[CmdrLaForge]

"It is about the victims and justice. Fourteen people were slaughtered and many more had their lives and bodies ruined. We owe them a thorough and professional investigation under law."

Apple should just give the FBI the information without giving them the key to anything. And this special iOS version could be tailored to the iPhones serial number in question. I saw Apples response claiming there servers are not save and someone could steal it from them. Well then Apple simply do not connect that computer to the internet. I guess Ethan Hunt still could get it but he could also unlock any phone so..

 

[duffman9000]

Comey is not fit for his job.

He seems to have forgotten, as have the US government under Obama, that the US is not a totalitarian state. If the government try to force through their demands on Apple, they should be overthrown by any means. The US government has betrayed the Constitution and has shown that it is not fit for office. Revolution may be needed to rid the States of this cancer.

This didn't start recently but that's beside the point now. Just Try to reign in executive overreach and see what happens.