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Okay, James. Let's say Apple plays ball. Let's say that, despite not wanting to set a precedent, you realize that you have, and use this ability again in the future. Then let's say that, despite your ability to get access to people's iPhones, acts of terrorism happen anyhow. What's the next step? Where does it end?
 
Even if you are right (which you are not btw), the valid court order does indeed compel them to help in THIS case. See paragraphs 2 and 3, especially.

https://cdn2.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/6053155/in-the-matter-of-the-search.0.pdf

I'm not arguing that they wouldn't be compelled to help in this case, if the existing order is allowed to stand. As far as what they did in the past though, AFAIK, what they did then was wholly different to what is being demanded of them now. In the past they handed over information that was essentially already in their possession as they simply had to enter a decryption key, which they already had into the device to retrieve the stored information.

In this case they are being asked to write software that doesn't currently exist, in effect Apples engineers would become agents of the government and be forced to create software. This would be substantially more work than they have done for the FBI in the past and would set a binding precent for the future.
 
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No, actually any individual or entity has the right to say "no" and appeal the decision. Apple is not stuck unless/until the case is heard by the Supreme Court. Hopefully they can tie this up in litigation for years, or at least until we get enough elected representatives with a spine who will pass legislation that will block the FBIs backdoor attempt, and set law to protect encryption/privacy.

Apple can drag this out for a very long time between law enforcement requests. Oh so the FBI said we can delete our current work done to break into just this phone? Done. Oh you want us unlock another phone? We have to create another secure environment. Queue the multi month long timer to unlock just one more phone.

The FBI won't like that one bit. The FBI will then use another all writ ruling to force Apple to keep said software available forever. Apple can then attack the FBI over their constant lies about this being a one time thing.
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Okay, James. Let's say Apple plays ball. Let's say that, despite not wanting to set a precedent, you realize that you have, and use this ability again in the future. Then let's say that, despite your ability to get access to people's iPhones, acts of terrorism happen anyhow. What's the next step? Where does it end?

Backdoors everywhere. That's what they have always wanted. And then when person to person communications become possible the FBI will push for brain back doors. Because that's the only way to stop the terrorists and child molesters.
 
I'm not arguing that they wouldn't be compelled to help in this case, if the existing order is allowed to stand. As far as what they did in the past though, AFAIK, what they did then was wholly different to what is being demanded of them now. In the past they handed over information that was essentially already in their possession as they simply had to enter a decryption key, which they already had into the device to retrieve the stored information.

In this case they are being asked to write software that doesn't currently exist, in effect Apples engineers would become agents of the government and be forced to create software. This would be substantially more work than they have done for the FBI in the past and would set a binding precent for the future.

Yes, this is part of what will be decided in the hearing on the 26th. I think all of us will be interested in hearing Apple's arguments on this.
 
Mate, you may not want to set a precent, but that's what' you're doing by pushing this on Apple.

I get it, they want to get the intel on this person's phone. It's not lost on me. But it's the ramifications for all of us in the future.
 
Well really, if they have the iCloud backup they can get a list of the apps installed and send a subpoena to all the app manufacturers looking for data associated with the specific individual. They also will have the on-disk stuff like prefs and login info.

The "get Apple to do work" way might be less work for the FBI, but has now turned into a PR nightmare for the Obama administration. And they'll still have to do the above, so really, the FBI is just picking a fight because it wants to make clear to everyone who the dominant entity is.

Unfortunately, the FBI is not Taylor Swift.
 
Okay, James. Let's say Apple plays ball. Let's say that, despite not wanting to set a precedent, you realize that you have, and use this ability again in the future. Then let's say that, despite your ability to get access to people's iPhones, acts of terrorism happen anyhow. What's the next step? Where does it end?

COINTELPRO V. 2
 
Ever wonder bout what he's doin'
How it all turned to lies
Sometimes I think that it's better
To never ask why

Where there is desire
There is gonna be a flame
Where there is a flame
Someone's bound to get burned
But just because it burns
Doesn't mean you're gonna die

You've gotta get up and try try try
You've gotta get up and try try try
You've gotta get up and try try try

Funny how the heart can be deceiving
More than just a couple times
Why do we fall in love so easy
Even when it's not right

Where there is desire
There is gonna be a flame
Where there is a flame
Someone's bound to get burned
But just because it burns
Doesn't mean you're gonna die

You've gotta get up and try try try
You've gotta get up and try try try
You've gotta get up and try try try

Ever worried that it might be ruined
Does it make you wanna cry?
When you're out there doing what you're doing
Are you just getting by?
Tell me are you just getting by by by

Where there is desire
There is gonna be a flame
Where there is a flame
Someone's bound to get burned
But just because it burns
Doesn't mean you're gonna die

You've gotta get up and try try try
You've gotta get up and try try try
You've gotta get up and try try try


Not Trying to Set Precedent? - Try Harder!

You've gotta get up and try try try
You've gotta get up and try try try
You've gotta get up and try try try
 
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Just to play devils advocate. The other precedent is, "Global corporation decides they are above the law, snubs FBI request” ?

No, it is "Global corporation makes a sensible case to the US Courts that the FBI's request is an undue burden under the All Writs clause, and that the requested hack would be an inevitable loss of the rights of privacy for all Americans [and other non-American peoples if they count for anything] without providing any reasonably robust new tools for the FBI to use in this or future cases".

I know, seeing a rational and well-constructed argument lead to a law being properly applied (or not applied as in this case) is indeed a very dangerous precedent.
 
If all the FBI wants is unlimited access to attempt to break the passcord; why cant they ask Apple to help dissemble the iphone 5C, and extract the flash storage or just dump a image of the flash storage to a file; create backup copies, and then have all the time they want in the world to crack the encryption, passcodes, and/or keys?

In theory with a copy of the image, they could re-load this image back into the 5C flash storage to gain more "turns" to crack the passcord.

Then they don't need to ask Apple to create a new iOS with a backdoor, or master key, etc.
 
Dress it up which ever way you like sport, if they have had a legal and official demand from a judge and decided not to comply……

You know what. If I chose not to pay my council tax and the powers that be handed down an order that I defied, (whatever the reason means to me), I’d be taken to the cleaners.

Let's be absolutely clear here: Apple is not in any way defying any court order.

The court order was to do this work OR file a response as to why they can not or should not by this Friday (Feb 26).

Apple is well within the orders of the Court, Trump stupidity notwithstanding.
 
Dress it up which ever way you like sport, if they have had a legal and official demand from a judge and decided not to comply……

You know what. If I chose not to pay my council tax and the powers that be handed down an order that I defied, (whatever the reason means to me), I’d be taken to the cleaners.

Fortunately you don't run the US judicial system. The way it works is that when a judge or jury issues an order that a party deems unjust they are afforded the opportunity to appeal it. Don't look for this order to stand up on appeal. Especially not in the 9th Circuit.
 
Fortunately you don't run the US judicial system. The way it works is that when a judge or jury issues an order that a party deems unjust they are afforded the opportunity to appeal it. Don't look for this order to stand up on appeal. Especially not in the 9th Circuit.


And then it goes to the Supreme Court, where Republicans refuse to let Obama appoint an associate. The case ends in a 4-4 tie and the 9th Circuit decision stands.
 
And then it goes to the Supreme Court, where Republicans refuse to let Obama appoint an associate. The case ends in a 4-4 tie and the 9th Circuit decision stands.

Whole other issue, but I think the Supremes rule in Apple's favor on this one (assuming they were to grant cert) even in their current composition.
 
But in this case, it's protected by only a 4 digit PIN, which means there is no real protection against brute force once the 10 guess limit and time delays are removed. What happens next time when a bad guy uses a 15+ digit passphrase and the FBI can't brute force it? They will immediately demand that the encryption itself be backdoored, and we're back to the Clipper Chip debacle of the 90's. This is something they have already demanded.

Yes, exactly.

What the FBI is asking for here is completely ineffective against any terrorist with the slightest sense of operational security. We know that this phone is using either a 4-digit or a 6-digit numeric passcode (otherwise the request to allow brute forcing would be completely meaningless because the FBI would have no hope of getting it in any reasonable amount of time). That is not what op-sec-aware people use. We know these terrorists were op-sec-aware as they thoroughly destroyed their private phones and laptops. It is possible they did something really stupid and ended up with data on this insecure work phone, but that is definitely grasping at straws.

In any case, since the FBI insisted on this being fought in the public courts, it is just more obvious to any and all terrorist organizations that you need to use a secure (long, mixed-case, etc) password on your devices. Then this crack can not be used.

Yet, the vast majority of people who think they have nothing to hide are using now-easily-cracked security. Voila: all the damage to net privacy, no benefit in investigative power against the stated targets.

On the other hand, the folks who tend to have less operational secuity are not the terrorists and child pornography rings, but low-level drug dealers. Unsurprisingly, the vast vast majority of applications of powers under the Patriot Act ended up being used against drug dealers rather than terrorists. Maybe that is a good thing. But, it definitely wasn't how the Patriot Act was sold. And it isn't how this is being sold, but it is definitely how it will be used. Why not sell it to us honestly? Maybe because you wouldn't have people agreeing as vehemently?
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That is true, Apple did have the key prior to iOS8, and they do not have one now for iOS8 and 9. But doing that was Apple's choice. Some call it a "marketing strategy", some call it an increased level of privacy in a world where hacking is becoming more routine. But whatever you call it, that's where we are now.

With an update to its iOS software, Apple switched off its ability to retrieve data from its phones and tablets. By doing this, Apple tried to take itself out of the equation when law enforcement is looking for access to a phone. Essentially, the company could no longer fulfill a request because it was technically unable to do so. But the law surrounding searches, seizures and requests for assistance from law enforcement have not changed. Apple still must comply with those. And that's why the situation is what it is now. So yeah, in order to comply with legal requests, Apple will have to make a version of the iOS that can be accessed by law enforcement.

Remember, two years ago, nobody was making any of the current "sky is falling" arguments, and the iOS was less secure.

No.

Prior to iOS8, Apple did hold the key to on-phone data which was not otherwise protected. Now Apple only holds the key to iCloud backup data which is not otherwise protected.

Of particular note, Apple has decrypted all iCloud backups requested in this case.

What Apple has never done is bypass the on-device password to impersonate the user. It never did this prior to iOS8, and it is fighting to not be forced to do so now. Doing this releases account-encrypted and device-encrypted data such as iMessages and iCloud Keychain contents as well as numerous third-party data. There is investigative value in these pieces of data (unlikely to be so in this case, but in the more general case where this precedent would be applied). But, and this is the important thing: they have not previously been available. Making them available would set a new precedent.
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If there is a legal court order why not? They can also get a search warrant for anyones house by court order and go through your underwear.

A legal search warrant issued in Beijing to search my underwear drawer would likely not end up being executed. Giving this power to the FBI means every nation in the world has it (or Apple faces severe trade sanctions under international law).
 
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I've thought about that too - but as I understand it, you can put your phone into DFU mode (Device Firmware Upgrade mode), connect your phone to iTunes, and without a passcode, you can update your operating system.

The only firmware allowed to update the phone in this mode is Apple-signed code. So, yes, I think Apple can do this. This is sort of Apple's backdoor that exists already.

Apple doesn't want to create this version of the OS, because Apple can't just destroy it, it will be needed every other day when the FBI wants to unlock yet another phone. So, this OS will have to be kept somewhere within Apple. This opens it up to the possibility of an employee leaking this OS out somewhere defeating all of Apple's security. Additionally, the employees who create this could simply re-create it out in the wild when they leave Apple, as they know how to do it.
[doublepost=1456172418][/doublepost]A 'backdoor' would be in the hands of Chinese and Russian and Israeli Intelligence Services within a day or so of it's creation.
You cannot hold back invention and technology. Before there were phones there was no 'cracking' conversations or text. Now there are phones and now they can be made secure from 'cracking'. Just accept it. The 'golden era' of violating people's personal data is past. At least for now. Asking, nay..demanding..Apple build their own scaffold and bring their own rope to their own corporate hanging is not going to happen. If for no other reason it will be because our own 'watchers' know that their adversaries await like starved wolves for a free gift of access to our secure capability.
 
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Dress it up which ever way you like sport, if they have had a legal and official demand from a judge and decided not to comply……

You know what. If I chose not to pay my council tax and the powers that be handed down an order that I defied, (whatever the reason means to me), I’d be taken to the cleaners.

Thats what the process is for. Appeal. Here is the timeline (from the LA Times) ...

1. Apple Inc. (“Apple”) has informed the government and the Court that it will seek relief from the Court’s February 16, 2016 Order Compelling Apple to Assist Agents in Search (the “Order”).

2. On February 18, 2016, the Court held a telephonic status conference in this matter and heard the positions of the government and Apple with respect to an appropriate briefing schedule for Apple’s application for relief.

3. On February 19, 2016, the government filed a Motion to Compel Apple Inc. to Comply with this Court’s February 16, 2016 Order Compelling Assistance in Search.

4. The Court will hear Apple’s application for relief and the government’s motion to compel on March 22, 2016, at 1:00 p.m., and sets the following briefing schedule: Apple shall file its application for relief/opposition to the government’s motion by not later than February 26, 2016; Any amicus brief shall be filed by not later than March 3, 2016, along with an appropriate request seeking leave of the Court to file such brief; The government’s opposition to Apple’s application for relief/reply to the government’s motion shall be filed by not later than March 10, 2016; Apple shall file any reply with respect to its application for relief by not later than March 15, 2016.

5. Apple shall have 35 pages for its application for relief/opposition to the government’s motion, and the government shall have 35 pages for its opposition to Apple’s application for relief/reply to the government’s motion. All other filings shall conform to the page limits set forth in the Local Rules.

6. The Order currently imposes a five-day deadline by which Apple must seek relief from the Court. In light of the schedule set forth herein, that deadline is vacated; Apple shall seek relief from the Court by February 26, 2016.
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That sounds like hyperbole.

Let's also remember that proceedings took place and a legitimate court order was ultimately issued and not a summary attack on peoples' rights, there was legitimate reason about the owner of the phone and it wasn't because he jaywalked across the street.

Taking in one phone is not opening up the whole ecosystem unless Apple screwed up its design.

The double standards set by Apple (and other companies supporting it) about private data collection - remember when it was revealed Siri uploads recorded voice to a server farm instead of converting it locally on the phone and people got their chicken little hats on? But that's one issue of many.

I will not sign the petition.

Especially as if this happened last decade when we were told "You are either with us or you are with the terrorists" and Obama did not rescind what George W Bush said because we're still a post-9/11 world...

It is sad when folks get an opinion and it becomes a bit apparent in their posts they have minimal data and run off of opinion without facts.

btw - what makes you say this is a legitimate court order? Think carefully ...
 
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Haha, James Comey is full of ****.

That guy has not had one true statement come out of his mouth regarding anything that has to do with technology ever.
 
Seems to me a good way to end this is to have Apple invite the FBI into Cupertino... work on the issue together and anything done is purely kept in-house.

Trust me... the last thing I want is to see a back-door mandated on smart phones. It would open the door to cyber terrorism which IMHO is our biggest threat. Not to mention the fun the hackers would have just trying to crack our phones and steal information.

That won't work either. Once performed, no matter where, it sets a precedent. This open this up for additional writs and requests from any LEO and Country. It's not the data, it's the process. That first step and slippery commences.
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if the court order stated you and your employer/employees had to give up your SS and credit card info to a service that was insecure IN ORDER to comply with the court order, that would raise questions of validity, no?

just because our law makers make laws doen't mean they understand what they're actually doing - and if it's not in our best interest, we stage a protest and bring competent law makers on board.

why act as though laws are infallible and written by deities from the outer reaches? we govern ourselves and we have ways to change harmful laws.

The other aspect to keep in mind: the US Attorney that drafted and submitted the warrant to the court for the FBI is a former Deputy Mayor of Homeland Security.
Lots of tentacles in this pond...
 
He says this needs to be decided in the public, well I think we have all sent a pretty clear message that we will not accept the FBI doing this.
 
Everyone is forgetting that prior to iOS8, Apple routinely cooperated with legal warrants and requests from law enforcement to unlock specific iPhones in about 70 instances. The situation with this iPhone 5c is exactly the same as those previous 70 instances. However, prior to iOS8, Apple could use, and did use, its own "key" to open the phone and bypass the password because the encryption was different. With iOS8, Apple doesn't have that "key" anymore, so the FBI and law enforcement need Apples assistance to bypass the passcode and access the contents on the phone. The newest encryption on iOS8 and iOS9 prevents it.

Precedent? Yeah, it's already been set. By Apple and their previous willingness to assist. The legal standards, requests, and safeguards have NOT changed. The ONLY thing that's changed is the operating system and the type of encryption.

I think Apple is ultimately going to lose this one. And if they continue to fight the FBI in this very public way, lawmakers are going to note their intransigence and pass laws that will force Apple (and many other tech companies) to provide access when requested by a Court order. I'd rather not see that happen. Apple should stop fighting and work quietly with the FBI to resolve this like they have in the past.


I wish people would get it right: Apple did not unlock, they merely extracted and delivered. They had no need to unlock. With iOS 8 and beyond, extraction only gets you encrypted data.
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So many get this wrong and quote headlines stating "Unlock". Thanks for the link.
 
And then it goes to the Supreme Court, where Republicans refuse to let Obama appoint an associate. The case ends in a 4-4 tie and the 9th Circuit decision stands.
I don't think it would end in a tie, I think this is one of those rare cases where it would be unanimous. This is such a no brainer that they should easily make this decision quite quickly that Apple is right.
 
From your cited article:



There may be technical distinctions between unlocking and extracting, but from a legal perspective, this article makes distinctions without differences. Whether it is unlocking or extracting, Apple has helped law enforcement in the past, and are refusing to do so now in spite of a court order directing them to do so.

There is a huge difference. If I use a 12 digit AN code best of luck. Now if they can just extract the data and it's unencrypted irrespective of the passcode/password ... not the same.
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Meh. Apple will do it sooner or later. If not this time, the FBI will simply set up another false flag and try again, maybe with another manufacturer.

Most likely. This is the fourth run by the FBI I am aware of.
 
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