FBI Forensic Examiner Stephen Flatley Calls Apple 'Jerks' and 'Evil Geniuses' for Encrypting iPhones

[BarracksSi]

I don't have anything illegal in my house so i am not concerned if they saw what was lying around. i agree with others that i would not like the key to be acquired by criminals that would steal things from the house.

But you do have things like bank statements, your mortgage or lease agreement, your car keys, your birth certificate, pictures of your family, names and addresses of your relatives, documents related to your job, and a whole bunch of other things of value, right?

I suppose that you've learned to not make your house look like a high-value target, but the kind of information available via a cracked smartphone (like I said, my analogy was a shaky one) would be great for a criminal to have.

The FBI may only be interested in things you have or do that are illegal (purportedly). Criminals would use the same key to get everything.

 

[bradl]

So if they have a warrant, as it explains in the link you provided, they can search.

True, but that leads to the next issue: how to access your phone. If you have TouchID enabled, LEOs can compel you to give your fingerprint to unlock your phone without a warrant, and would not be against your 5A rights.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...mendment-and-touch-id/?utm_term=.a5ca303a97fb

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...nts-to-unlock-a-phone/?utm_term=.c6b82d32b1cf

If you use a passcode, you are protected by your 5th Amendment rights.

https://www.engadget.com/2014/10/31/court-rules-touch-id-is-not-protected-by-the-fifth-amendment-bu/

Yes, and Apple complies with all search warrants issued. Apple does not comply with backdoors and crippling their own OS and encryption in the process.

If a crime has been committed by a person, and Apple is not indemnified (read: 1st party) in the case, Apple would then be the 3rd party to it and outside of the original charge. No warrant would be needed for them to search anything, as the LEOs would only need a subpoena. No 4A right would have been violated. There's an entire thread about that here in PRSI:

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/your-personal-data-versus-the-4th-amendment.1649516/

This is why one should be careful with storing your data with any services in the cloud. If the LEOs want to search your data, and it is stored in the cloud, you do not own that data. The company hosting the cloud services does, and all that is needed is for a clerk of the court to submit a subpoena to a judge to have those companies turn over that data.

BTW: Any lawyer is a clerk of the court, and they can write their own subpoena and submit it. If the company doesn't comply, they can face a contempt of court charge.

So think about whether ease of use of having your data available easily via the cloud is worth sacrificing your privacy should anything happen to you.

BL.

 

[indychris]

I'm thrilled that the FBI is frustrated with Apple, and glad that Cook & Co have held the line here. A vulnerability for one at some point becomes a vulnerability for all.

That said, I am left scratching my head as to why Cook seems so adamant to stand up against our own government, but so willing to cow-tow to the Chinese government who has a terrible history of abusing the rights of its people. Leads me to think that even here maybe this is all less about principle than it is pocketbook.

 

[pubwvj]

'Evil Geniuses'

Crimmany! Coming from the FBI that is a huge complement! They know what they're talking about!

 

[DevNull0]

Of course the FBI is well aware that this statement will make everyone who has information they want to hide from the FBI use an iPhone. The only logical reason they'd say its harder to get data from iPhones is if it's easier to get data and they want to fool people into using them.

If the cops give criminals advice on avoiding detection, isn't it safe to assume following the advice will be the fastest way to get caught?

 

[OldSchoolMacGuy]

In this case, the technology that was used to crack the iPhone was a warrant.

No it wasn't. A warrant is present in every single case when an electronic device is searched. Why do so many fail to understand that? They think the FBI is violating their rights by searching a phone. They aren't. They have a warrant granting them the right to do so. They have every right in this country to do so.

 

[thisisnotmyname]

Stephen: I think YOU are a jerk and evil (although not a genius, sir) for wanting to weaken encryption for all of us because you're addicted to the easy access to information you've had over the past decade and won't return to traditional investigative techniques.

 

[FrenchRoasted]

He's good at roping all of you in.

The truth is we've been selling the FBI and others tools since 2008 that allow simple investigation on iOS.

But keep thinking you're safe if it makes you feel good.

Genuinely interested if you have any evidence of this.

 

[BarracksSi]

No it wasn't. A warrant is present in every single case when an electronic device is searched. Why do so many fail to understand that? They think the FBI is violating their rights by searching a phone. They aren't. They have a warrant granting them the right to do so. They have every right in this country to do so.

You left out the part where they used some crypto tech to gain access after they obtained the warrant, then.

 

[mytdave]

Oh do shut up already. And this comment from the organization who wrote an exoneration letter for crooked Hillary before an investigation was even started, and who were involved in obtaining an illegal FISA warrant for domestic spying that was based on a fictitious report. Oh yeah, y'all are so trustworthy. Not.

Newsflash!: People use encryption to protect themselves against hackers as well as corrupt organizations. Also, the genie is out of the bottle. If you corrupt Apple (force them to create a backdoor), people will just use 3rd party encryption (the genie) to protect their communication and you won't have gained anything, while you would have harmed the general consumer.

Time to pack your bags and go home. You have no credibility. Go clean up your own house, and try some good old fashioned detective work and stop relying on electronic eavesdropping.

 

[OldSchoolMacGuy]

Well said. By him saying this statement, he's telling terrorists and criminals to use iOS because we have our thumbs up where the sun don't shine. Now, all of the criminal and terrorist organizations know what to use.

As I said, if the FBI really can't crack iOS (which they can I can say for absolute fact as I've sold them the tech to do so since 2008), why would it be smart for them to tell criminals "Hey use iOS if you don't want us to be able to investigate you!", as you're suggesting.

If instead they have the ability to crack it (which they do), then lying and telling people "Oh it's totally secure, you should really use it cause it's secure and we can't get at your information." is a brilliant play. It makes people feel comfortable and complacent. It means they won't take additional steps to secure their data because they'll feel it's already safe, even if it's not.

 

[Someyoungguy]

After the fake dossier used to get a FISA warrant, the FBI has zero credibility.

What’s been disproven?

 

[CrystalQuest76]

This approach by the FBI is just simply a power grab because they want to move towards Stasi/KGB style law enforcement. You know where they stand at the buss terminal and ask for your papers, then tell you they are fake, and arrest you because you have the wrong political views.

If you really believe that the FBI is moving towards the Stasi/KGB model then you better stop posting on this and every other forum you post on. You also better eliminate all your friends and especially your family members since the Stasi were using family members to report about everything they saw and heard in their households.

 

[OldSchoolMacGuy]

Genuinely interested if you have any evidence of this.

My evidence is that since 2008, we've been selling the US government and other governments around the world computer forensic software to allow them to easily extract data from Macs and iOS devices. We've worked with Apple directly to sell it (along with Apple systems to run investigations) and helped numerous agencies with training and cases.

 

[macTW]

Oh no, jerks!

I thought the jerk would be the one trying to force a company to conform to the jerk’s beliefs...

 

[DevNull0]

I don't have anything illegal in my house so i am not concerned if they saw what was lying around.

Well where do you draw the line? Are you happy with the government knowing who you voted for? Because in Canada a few years ago, we had a veteran ask his member of parliament for help and the only response he got was "you didn't vote for me, why would I help you?" And the prime minister backed up the politician on it. You may not be doing anything illegal, but do you want your whole life to be an open book?

And where do you draw the line? Why not install cameras throughout your house and give the government access? If everyone did that, there would be very few crimes because the police could use the cameras to quickly search everyone's homes and then focus their real investigations on the dissenters without cameras.

Just because you're not doing anything wrong doesn't mean you should want your whole life opened up.

 

[BuddyTronic]

Everyone deserves to have privacy - even if you have nothing to hide!

It's just the principle of the thing - privacy should be a human right.

 

[FrenchRoasted]

My evidence is that since 2008, we've been selling the US government and other governments around the world computer forensic software to allow them to easily extract data from Macs and iOS devices. We've worked with Apple directly to sell it (along with Apple systems to run investigations) and helped numerous agencies with training and cases.

This is an accusation, not evidence. I have no problem believing the malice of our surveillance state, but do you have evidence Apple directly working with them to compromise our privacy?

 

[ValSalva]

Apple has to act politically correct because they are a huge corporation but you have to believe that the team members at Apple responsible for iPhone security are beaming today

 

[brianvictor7]

The fact that the FBI is as mad as they are with Apple on this helps me to feel good about how strong the encryption actually is.

A good point.

Really, I don't see the FBI winning at this. We want stronger encryption, not less. It should take a court order for the government to be able to look into my private data, not because I have anything I feel I need to hide, but because it is my private data and none of their business unless they have just cause to believe otherwise.

 

[Superhai]

The fact that the FBI is as mad as they are with Apple on this helps me to feel good about how strong the encryption actually is.

Look at the photo on the article, imagine another angle with the white canvas in the background. Now read his statement with a British crowned accent...

Yes, it's not possible to make a better ad for Apple.

 

[CrystalQuest76]

The FBI may only be interested in things you have or do that are illegal (purportedly). Criminals would use the same key to get everything.

I agree there is a concern about criminals getting a hold of personal information. However it seems that a large percentage of posters on this thread think that the evil government is lurking at their keyholes constantly looking in.
Frankly i am much more concerned with big companies gathering so much information about me and not having enough checks-and-balances to ensure that it is not used properly or worse; not be accurate.
[doublepost=1515696644][/doublepost]

It should take a court order for the government to be able to look into my private data, not because I have anything I feel I need to hide, but because it is my private data and none of their business unless they have just cause to believe otherwise.

The problem that law enforcement has with encryption as it currently being implemented is that they can not access the data even with a court order.

 

[tgara]

Yes, and Apple complies with all search warrants issued. Apple does not comply with backdoors and crippling their own OS and encryption in the process.

They didn't comply with the Warrant issued by the court to search the perpetrator's iPhone 5c. Instead, Cook pens an open letter to the world explaining why they are defying the court order.

In this case, the technology that was used to crack the iPhone was a warrant.

No it wasn't. A warrant is present in every single case when an electronic device is searched. Why do so many fail to understand that? They think the FBI is violating their rights by searching a phone. They aren't. They have a warrant granting them the right to do so. They have every right in this country to do so.

My view is that if Apple can keep the signing keys to every operating system it makes a secret, as they do now, then they can figure out a way to comply with warrants to open phones that law enforcement asks them to. The problem is that Apple could do it, but it doesn't want to.

I'm thrilled that the FBI is frustrated with Apple, and glad that Cook & Co have held the line here. A vulnerability for one at some point becomes a vulnerability for all.

If the FBI is frustrated with Apple, you can bet that members of Congress are frustrated with Apple too. I remember back when the San Bernardino incident happened. Many members of Congress, as well as President Obama, were very upset that Apple was not complying with lawful requests.

If this trend continues, I would not be surprised if Congress passes a law that requires encrypted devices and/or communications to be made available by the manufacturers to law enforcement on presentation of a legal search warrant.

What will Apple do then?

 

[Duane Martin]

I I grew up with neighbors on either side of my house that had fancy visible alarm systems and status symbol cars and they were constantly robbed. Our house was never touched.

Of course the problem is your house needs only be concerned about the criminals in the immediate vicinity. Your internet connected devices need to be concerned about every criminal, everywhere, in the world. And they are not just looking to steal expensive cars, they will steal EVERYTHING. If a back door were created it would be leaked (plenty of evidence to show that's the reality) and none of us would be able to use any internet connected device for anything that required any security (which pretty much covers everything you use them for if you use a little imagination).

As a previous poster stated I am pretty convinced that unbreakable encryption (or near as reasonably practical) has prevented far more crime than law enforcement could hope to prevent by having easy access (regardless of the inevitable catastrophic events that would be caused by this).

EDIT: or a more apropos response for MR would be "and your neighbours never figured out it was you who was robbing them?"

 

[OldSchoolMacGuy]

This is an accusation, not evidence. I have no problem believing the malice of our surveillance state, but do you have evidence Apple directly working with them to compromise our privacy?

Oh in no way am I saying they're compromising your privacy. They have warrants and have every right granted by the justice system in the United States to do so. There's no right to privacy on the behalf of the person being investigated at that point.

Apple's government guys in Hermdon do assist the government frequently.