FBI Reportedly Asks Apple to Help Unlock Passcode-Protected iPhones Used by Mass Shooter in Florida

[Justanotherfanboy]

Bravo for taking that stance but I really wonder how resolute you'd be if your life or the life of your family was dependent on it.

Lol at “dependent”!
So you think there isn’t really a case against these guys?? Conviction is 100% dependent on gaining access to the precise wording of an iMessage?
Sounds like an extremely weak case!
You support all of us losing rights, en massé, for agencies to fawn over our devices, looking for something to suspect one of?
Not the OP you were finger wagging at... but to be clear- I do NOT lack the courage of my convictions, sir!
If I was in a horrible situation of a home invasion, for example, I can absolutely guarantee that running through my mind would NOT be: “omg, if we only lived in a society where police randomly stopped by 5 or 6 times a day & barged in your house to confirm your safety... then these guys would be in trouble!”.
Yeah.... I think you’re on your own, in sitting around wistfully dreaming of your family in danger & imagining the lovely totalitarian regime that would save them by everyone else giving up their rights.

 

[Optheduim]

I fully stand with Apple on matters like this.

 

[hudson1]

The corrupt (and impeached) Trump administration will use this case as a Trojan Horse to demand that Apple ship spyware on their phones. They already caught the guy, they know everything about him, does the FBI really need to know that he watched cat videos or played angry birds? Fortunately Tim Cook and Apple have seen this trick a million times before and have the backbone to stand up for their users. It's not about protecting criminals, it's about protecting ordinary Apple users from criminals such as the president.

Umm, they didn't catch the guy... they killed the guy when he was killing others. Who's rights are they violating at this point by unlocking his phone?

 

[bsolar]

Incorrect. Apple can unlock this phone as well as hand over all icloud data.

Not sure which model needs to be unlocked in this case, but if it's a newer model Apple cannot unlock it.

In 2015 and 2016, Apple Inc. received and objected to or challenged at least 11 orders issued by United States district courts under the All Writs Act of 1789. Most of these seek to compel Apple "to use its existing capabilities to extract data like contacts, photos and calls from locked iPhones running on operating systems iOS 7 and older" in order to assist in criminal investigations and prosecutions. A few requests, however, involve phones with more extensive security protections, which Apple has no current ability to break.

 

[shplock]

When it comes to acts of terrorism and murder, Apple needs to comply in these situations. Period.

Except no they should not. Period!

 

[miniyou64]

Bravo for taking that stance but I really wonder how resolute you'd be if your life or the life of your family was dependent on it.

No ones life depends on this.
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Umm, they didn't catch the guy... they killed the guy when he was killing others. Who's rights are they violating at this point by unlocking his phone?

Criminals have rights too. You may not like that but they do. Or at least they’re supposed to. Since we live in a police state now and everyone is guilty until proven innocent, I can see why you would feel that way.

 

[shplock]

The FBI has the ability to unlock these already. If you look into the Snowden files which are old by today's standards they were far ahead of the game. It's a save face tactic.

And to using this to get political against the President. He's still the POTUS, the games our Congress is playing are half baked truths, and you should be more upset at our tax dollars being wasted for what is really not that serious. And if any issue should arise, how about your ex Vice President abusing his office powers. Start there.... Moving on, nothing to see here.

Except that just because Trump is the POTUS does not make him a nice person or great or worthy of being President.
Also if you think that the FBI are ahead then you are mistaken.

 

[hudson1]

No ones life depends on this.
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Criminals have rights too. You may not like that but they do. Or at least they’re supposed to. Since we live in a police state now and everyone is guilty until proven innocent, I can see why you would feel that way.

Dead people are not "criminals" facing a conviction. Again, who's rights are they violating if the phone was owned by a now dead person?

 

[techwhiz]

Incorrect. Apple can unlock this phone as well as hand over all icloud data.

You are incorrect.
Apple says about this key:
"The UID is unique to each device and is not recorded by Apple or any of its suppliers."
and also
"The UID is not related to any other identifier on the device."

The UID is not recoverable and is stored in the Secure Enclave. It is hashed with whatever passcode that is used to create an encryption key. You must have the passcode to decrypt the device.
Apple used 256 bit Elliptic Curve encryption, but even if they are using AES256, SHA256 or RSA you aren't getting in without the passcode.

The fact that the UID lives in the Secure Enclave and any passcode hashes are created inside the Secure Enclave prevents hacking. You can't directly extract the keys from the Secure Enclave.

What part of Apple can't "just decrypt" the device is difficult to understand?
Google/Android is in the same boat; and encrypted device can't be decrypted by brute force and there is no backdoor.

 

[BarrettF77]

Except that just because Trump is the POTUS does not make him a nice person or great or worthy of being President.
Also if you think that the FBI are ahead then you are mistaken.

I think the NSA has a lot more toys at their disposal than they disclose and there is a good possibility the FBI may too...

And who is POTUS isn't necessarily about him being a nice guy. I'd never be friends with him, but I certainly can trust him more than a lying career politician any day of the week. He WAS voted in, America is sore because there are so many snowflakes out there and it's been puddles and puddles of all the crying for the last 3 years.

Many didn't with Obama was in office and can assure you there were plenty who felt the same about him but there wasn't this movement to impeach or constant bias by everyone and the media because the media is incredibly liberal. Find a non liberal person in office and is it really a surprise the media runs counter to them?

Common sense my friend (though it really isn't so common anymore)....

 

[NickName99]

As much as I love Apple and feeling secure with the data on my phone I believe for serious cases like these Apple should help out, but with Apple supervision where they are all along for the unlocking process and data transfer

It’s not currently possible for Apple to unlock iPhones. They’ve engineered them to be secure - it’s not actually that difficult at this point, it’s just math. This has absolutely nothing to do with Apple “cooperating” or not - they literally cannot unlock iPhones. If Apple made iPhone security weaker so that they could unlock iPhones for the FBI, that change would only affect iPhones that had been unlocked and updated with the new version of iOS with weaker security. Of course, criminals would then just communicate via a different secure channel, such as end-to-end encrypted apps storing data overseas, out of reach of the FBI.

 

[kemal]

The FBI is asking Apple to hand over their private key. That would be the one Apple use to encrypt their iPhone software in the installers. Apple "helping" the FBI by writing a special OS for the application processor and Secure Enclave would be in essence, the same thing.

 

[ctdonath]

The FBI is asking Apple to hand over their private key. That would be the one Apple use to encrypt their iPhone software in the installers.

Can you confirm that?
Can you explain why it would be useful to accessing actionable evidence (vs installing apps/OS)?

The goal of iOS data security is the sheer, literal, mathematical, impossibility of decrypting it in a human-meaningful period without the passcode and Secure Enclave keys.

 

[techwhiz]

It’s not currently possible for Apple to unlock iPhones. They’ve engineered them to be secure - it’s not actually that difficult at this point, it’s just math. This has absolutely nothing to do with Apple “cooperating” or not - they literally cannot unlock iPhones. If Apple made iPhone security weaker so that they could unlock iPhones for the FBI, that change would only affect iPhones that had been unlocked and updated with the new version of iOS with weaker security. Of course, criminals would then just communicate via a different secure channel, such as end-to-end encrypted apps storing data overseas, out of reach of the FBI.

People don't seem to get it.
RSA2048 can be done in a page of code.
You can use Proton mail with public/private key hosted in Switzerland.
If you had a backdoor to unlock the phone, criminals would use the phone differently.

A warrant for a safe doesn't give you the combination.
It gives the law enforcement organization permission to open the safe by any means.
Getting a backdoor, is equivalent to having a master key to every safe manufactured. Nope, hard pass on that.

I'm not buying the following arguments "it's to stop children from being abused", "it's to stop terrorists", etc., etc.....
The Constitution has protections against search and seizure.
What's the difference from someone writing encrypted messages on paper?
They can have the paper but you can't force an individual to give you the encryption key.

Right now a stolen Android (most in the last three years) and iPhone that are encrypted are completely useless to thieves except for parts. You can't even reset the device without the passcode.
Create a backdoor and it's a backdoor to criminals too.

I don't want to hear about escrow holders, etc.
DVD's and BlueRay encryption was supposed to be secure until someone leaked the keys.
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The FBI is asking Apple to hand over their private key. That would be the one Apple use to encrypt their iPhone software in the installers. Apple "helping" the FBI by writing a special OS for the application processor and Secure Enclave would be in essence, the same thing.

The only thing they get from a "special" version of iOS s the ability to brute force the password. Currently you only get 10 attempts and you either wipe the device or the time for the next entry grows exponentially.
They would like at least the ability to install a custom OS to brute force their way in with unlimited guesses.
If they hand over a signing key, much like Android, you can boot anything provided you can get the device into a mode to accept the download.

 

[bsolar]

I'm not buying the following arguments "it's to stop children from being abused", "it's to stop terrorists", etc., etc.....

"The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all."

H. L. Mencken

 

[ryanwarsaw]

Tim Cook gets directly involved by invoking "Hey Siri, how do I unlock an iPhone for the FBI?"

 

[macpro2000]

And he's still going to be your president for another 5 years.

Thank God. Hopefully we'll have Trumps in for the next couple decades if we want America to stay great.

 

[techwhiz]

"The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all."

H. L. Mencken

I like that quote.
Yes, we are defending scoundrels. I don't have any issue with that.
Just like freedom of speech. Popular speech doesn't need protection; unpopular and provocative speech does.
So when it comes to privacy I defend the scoundrels and on free speech I defend unpopular speech.

"Society can't be considered free when the government has the power to unlock every door and arbitrarily suppress speech." - Me

 

[Tucom]

How about law enforcement goes back to investigating cases like the good old days before smart phones became a thing

Because it can assist in the case - the hells wrong with using additional evidence? Why don't you go argue that with the victim's family's. This kind of thinking is borderline sociopathic, and INCREDIBLY full-of-yourself pretentious at best.

Additionally, if you have nothing to hide, what's it to you? This is obviously a heavily debated issue within Apple and internally talked about thoroughly before any big decision is made - it's not like you steal a paperclip from CVS and BOOM iPHONE'S OPEN!

People's personal life agenda in front of deaths, makes me sick.

 

[throAU]

If they got a warrant I have issue with Apple helping.

Whether they have a warrant or not, if APPLE have the ability to help, their phones are not secure.

Back doors are not acceptable. Keys leak to people who shouldn't obtain them, and you can't put the genie back in the bottle.
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Additionally, if you have nothing to hide, what's it to you? This is obviously a heavily debated issue within Apple and internally talked about thoroughly before any big decision is made - it's not like you steal a paperclip from CVS and BOOM iPHONE'S OPEN!

People's personal life agenda in front of deaths, makes me sick.

Ah the old "nothing to hide" argument.

Would you mind if your neighbour has a poke through your phone? How about me? How about your worst enemy, who's looking for dirt (or even innocent stuff that could be spun as dirt) to ruin your marriage? How about your bank accounts stored in your phone's wallet?

What about other random strangers on the internet? Because this is what happens to every single security mechanism that has been put out that contained a backdoor in the history of computing. Every time. The backdoor ends up being found and exploited by those who should not have access to it.

By all means - get a subpoena and detain the guy until he unlocks his phone if you think he's guilty. If he doesn't unlock then treat him as guilty. But don't weaken security for the 99.9999% of citizens who are NOT committing these offences, and open us all up to mass surveillance or other unauthorised access to our devices when the hole is found and exploited by the bad guys.

 

[Justanotherfanboy]

Here we go again...
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Yeah, even at the expense of other innocent lives who might be saved. good one.

Buying into the RIDICULOUS “innocent lives” propaganda that those eager to disintegrate your rights are foisting reminds me of this scene from Star Wars!

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People's personal life agenda in front of deaths, makes me sick.

And people with that opinion make ME sick!
I agree with Ben Franklin, that if you are willing to give up freedom for security; you deserve neither.

 

[SeattleMoose]

I find it odd that the NSA data facility in Utah has taps into all major Telecom hubs via Project Prism. Every single thing that goes in and out of our computers/phones/pads is cloned/split off to Utah. Everything (searches, uploads, downloads, messages, phone calls, etc.). And if you sign up for "cloud" then even all your "local" personal data on your device is cloned/split off to Utah as it goes from your device to the cloud server. Don't bother with Apple, ask the NSA.

 

[827538]

The corrupt (and impeached) Trump administration will use this case as a Trojan Horse to demand that Apple ship spyware on their phones. They already caught the guy, they know everything about him, does the FBI really need to know that he watched cat videos or played angry birds? Fortunately Tim Cook and Apple have seen this trick a million times before and have the backbone to stand up for their users. It's not about protecting criminals, it's about protecting ordinary Apple users from criminals such as the president.

Can we stick to the facts. Trump hasn't been impeached, they haven't even served the articles of impeachment. Again if Trump has been convicted of a crime then sure call him a criminal, but this is just tired Twitter hyperbole.

 

[scoobydoo99]

When it comes to acts of terrorism and murder, Apple needs to comply in these situations. Period.

In a nation with a Constitution and equal protection, doesn't it take a judge or jury to determine whether someone committed "acts of terrorism and murder"? The whole point is that Apple should never take the word of the police that a suspect is guilty...hence, Apple should never comply unless compelled by a court. (And, no, a subpoena is not a court order.)
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Because it can assist in the case - the hells wrong with using additional evidence? Why don't you go argue that with the victim's family's. This kind of thinking is borderline sociopathic, and INCREDIBLY full-of-yourself pretentious at best.

um, because the victim's families have nothing to do with civil rights! You are arguing that the U.S. Constitution, which was put in place to protect ALL of our rights, is pretentious and sociopathic! This is the typical argument used by fascists to undermine civil rights in order to install totalitarian regimes.

Additionally, if you have nothing to hide, what's it to you? This is obviously a heavily debated issue within Apple and internally talked about thoroughly before any big decision is made - it's not like you steal a paperclip from CVS and BOOM iPHONE'S OPEN!
People's personal life agenda in front of deaths, makes me sick.

Yes, the agenda of freedom and civil rights is far more important than any number of deaths. In fact, you might find that countless have died to support this agenda.

 

[throAU]

I find it odd that the NSA data facility in Utah has taps into all major Telecom hubs via Project Prism. Every single thing that goes in and out of our computers/phones/pads is cloned/split off to Utah. Everything (searches, uploads, downloads, messages, phone calls, etc.). And if you sign up for "cloud" then even all your "local" personal data on your device is cloned/split off to Utah as it goes from your device to the cloud server. Don't bother with Apple, ask the NSA.

Snowden confirmed that encryption "done properly" is currently immune to the NSA dragnet.

If apple is doing encryption properly, then the NSA can't help. Yet (but you can bet they are recording all the traffic they can for when they can break the encryption, and also to help break encryption via key re-use, or predictable data maybe leading to key compromise. this is why they are storing everything anyway, even if they can't view it yet).

They can link the guy to other people, but they don't have visibility into content necessarily.