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Really? So the next time hundreds of people get blown the **** up, and you find out this could've been prevented will you be saying the same thing?

I don't understand this mind set. I never will. The FBI doesn't give a **** about you and me. Are you planning to kill someone? They're looking for the people who will kill us and our families.

This is a problem that WILL eventually cause death and destruction, but thats fine right?

You know the most dangerous person in the USA is a husband with a gun. Over 70% of all murders are by someone the victim knows.

Now if the USA worked on the basis that US interests finish at the US boarder there would be a LOT less violence in the world. And if the USA had sane gun laws there would be a lot less murders in the USA. In many countries, you are MORE likely to die by being hit by lightening than by being shot, why... because Gun Control.

And even then, the biggest risk to your life is the medical profession, medical errors cause over 200,000 deaths in the USA each year.
 
Actually that is precisely what Apple cannot do. Apple has no key to your data.

To what extent do we believe that though.. What your saying is you would take Apple over a VPN ?
I trust my own stuff,,

I am the only one who keeps my "keys" and it is "my" responsibility only..... always will be.
 
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There is a way around it; serve the warrant forcing people to enter the passcode. If they refuse, then they can serve jail time until they give up.

Companies should and must not be forced to weaken security just so governments can access the data. Governments are not entitled to everything, period.

The US Constitution / 5th Amendment guarantees everyone the right not not self-incriminate. Courts have consistently rules that requiring someone to reveal information stored only in their brain - meaning that investigators cannot get the information anywhere else - goes against this. Thus, while your fingerprint could be used to force unlocking a cell phone.. your password can't. Unless, of course, you store that password somewhere else that it could be retrieved.

Is that a good thing? Absolutely!
Is it occasionally problematic? Of course?
Should we 'throw out the baby with the bathwater'? Not on your life!
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Really? So the next time hundreds of people get blown the **** up, and you find out this could've been prevented will you be saying the same thing?

I don't understand this mind set. I never will. The FBI doesn't give a **** about you and me. Are you planning to kill someone? They're looking for the people who will kill us and our families.

This is a problem that WILL eventually cause death and destruction, but thats fine right?

Actually, there is nothing we can do to prevent someone from trading their life for someone else. Period. No laws. No regulations. Only a 100% surveillance state MIGHT have a chance... and we will fight that at every turn.
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The feds aren't trying to get into EVERYONES phones, especially a peon. Learn what you're commenting on before coming up with an almost incoherent comment.

While that certainly *sounds* reasonable, I'll give you a very specific and real scenario where you are absolutely wrong.

Consider the case of the US "No Fly" list. YOU, as an individual, could be put on that list because your name is similar to someone who did something bad.. might do something bad... associates with people who do something bad... bought a latte and said hello to someone who does something bad... etc. The Feds DO NOT publish information on how and why specific names are on that list. The Feds DO NOT even publish that list! YOU won't learn about it unless and until you are prevented from purchasing an airline ticket.

What then? Absolutely nothing! You can petition all you want but the "average joe" you refer to has zero mechanism to get off the list. Oh... and while you're on it... do you think it's possible that the Feds might want to observe you?
 
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You’re making up a fictional doomsday scenario. Good for a laugh, but not really accurate in terms of what’s going on now.

The reality is that Apple is already complicit in enabling certain governments to spy on their citizens.

https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...ps-were-removed-from-china-app-store.2079075/

This shows that Apple will comply with the law, even if it goes against their corporate principles, if it means losing out on a lucrative market.

However MOST of what Apple does not they can NOT hand over because they do NOT have the keys, and they are working on making everything that way.
 
The FBI got there wish with iPhone X. Now they just have to point it at your face and they’re in. Thanks Apple!

Um... the FBI already has full access to every state's drivers license database.. with pics of your face. They already have that information. Will the iPhone X make it better? Nope! Not unless they find a way to pull that information off the physical device... one at a time.
 
I'm sure the highly respected senators will defend the citizens and question why the FBI is trying to infringe the privacy of their constituents.
Or are the "freedom" of Chinese citizens more important?
 
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That doesn’t work in cases like the San Bernardino shooter where the owner of the phone is dead.

I’m not sure what the best trade off is, once you put a back door in it is open to abuse by the government or hackers figuring it out, but there are cases where access is needed, and many of the documents that investigators would have been able to find on paper in the past to help find connections when a suspect is dead have moved to our phones so just old fashioned police work won’t always cut it.
“Needed”? Why. Is there a rule that every possible crime must be solved? If some bad guys get away, so be it. There is no perfect crime solving.
 
“Needed”? Why. Is there a rule that every possible crime must be solved? If some bad guys get away, so be it. There is no perfect crime solving.
Not every crime will be solved, but the police should put every possible effort into ensuring that they are all solved.
 
Not every crime will be solved, but the police should put every possible effort into ensuring that they are all solved.
Within the law. They can’t beat confessions out of people or conduct warrantless searches, etc. And they don’t make every effort to solve all. They have to triage.
 
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What is the FBI trying to accomplish? It's pretty clear that the only realistic way the FBI can realistically get its way would be to restrict encrypted communication of all forms to military and law enforcement only, thoroughly wrecking our economy in the process.

Encryption isn't unbreakable. Apple, Google and others spend a lot of time and money patching flaws in their encryption. Even then, we hear about serious security risks in Apple's software all the time. There are people out there always on the lookout for some exploit and they do find them. If they can, why can't the FBI do it?
 
The FBI has been pretty quick to proclaim what they can't do. They've also been pretty loud about it too. My inner cynic is telling me something. The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

I don't believe a word that comes out of the FBI.
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Apple has no data to give up. They don't hold the decryption keys, and they've been very careful to construct their system that way.

The government, even with the proper warrants, etc. don't have a right to force Apple to create something that they haven't created (backdoors). If the government could require it, it would be tantamount to forced slavery -- which, granted, the GOP seems to be perfectly ok with, as long as the person being forced to do something is a female, and the reason for which they're being forced to do something is to make a new taxpayer.

LOL - no MR comment section would be complete without a good dose of leftist derangement syndrome.
 
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I see many of our freedoms quickly eroding with the current administration in Washington. It's very "Sad." If they really need to get into a phone, figure it out, but don't force us to allow your backdoor methods to tap in on what you want! :mad:

And you think it started now, and not with George W. Bush, happily expanded by Barack Obama? Have you ever heard of Edward Snowden? It sounds to me like you have a political axe to grind with this administration.
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Then serve it to the person in question. They will have to unlock it or face jail time. Apple already gives the Gov’t access to iCloud info as they did in the iPhone C case. What the Gov’t wants is a way around the constitution.

Well, I have a really bad memory for things like passcodes and jailing me for that reason would be a violation of my rights...
 
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And you think it started now, and not with George W. Bush, happily expanded by Barack Obama? Have you ever heard of Edward Snowden? It sounds to me like you have a political axe to grind with this administration.
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Well, I have a really bad memory for things like passcodes and jailing me for that reason would be a violation of my rights...
One thing all of the Presidents Bush, Obama and Trump agree on is eroding people's privacy in the name of national security. No. Successful national security is not needing to infringe on people's privacy to protect them. All of these Presidents are wrong on this issue.
 
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The very foundation of the Constitution is based on respecting the individual. Whether it be through speech, religion, the right to bear arms, the right to be secure in your home and your papers, or any other of the inherent rights to which we all are entitled. Nobody gives up those rights until after they are convicted of crimes in a court of law. As a citizen I am under no obligation to make it easy for government to track my conversations or beliefs.

Requiring a backdoor into the methods of engaging in conversation is a direct assault on free speech. Once it is known the government can access all of your transmissions it will have a chilling effect on people with viewpoints that differ from acceptable norms. Once the backdoor is in place do you really think it will be limited to only one alphabet agency? Of course not, it is inevitable that other agencies will provide their own justification for accessing that information.

For the same reason I would never allow law enforcement to install microphones in my house to capture all my conversations I won't allow them to install a backdoor into my phone to do essentially the same thing with my electronic transmissions.

The argument that some bad things may be prevented is more than offset by the protection of liberty. A bad person with the keys to everyone's private conversations and data is much more of a threat than a terrorist. All you have to do is look at Hitler, Stalin, the Kims in Korea, Hussein, Ghadaffi, Pol Pot, Amein, Pinochet, Papa Doc, and any other myriad of ruthless dictators throughout history to see where excessive power in government is the biggest threat to the lives of multiple millions of people. Just imagine what any of those individuals could have done if they had unfettered access to every dissenting conversation and the technological ability to sort through them quickly.

Good comment. So many sheep see the threat in individuals and groups, while ignoring the much bigger threat of government tyranny. No terrorist group has ever killed a tiny fraction of the people killed by the your list of government tyrants.
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One thing all of the Presidents Bush, Obama and Trump agree on is eroding people's privacy in the name of national security. No. Successful national security is not needing to infringe on people's privacy to protect them. All of these Presidents are wrong on this issue.

I agree with you on this. I thought that particular commenter was being quite partisan in blaming just THIS administration for the erosion of individual rights.
 
There is a way around it; serve the warrant forcing people to enter the passcode. If they refuse, then they can serve jail time until they give up.

Companies should and must not be forced to weaken security just so governments can access the data. Governments are not entitled to everything, period.

Not sure the courts can compel anyone to give evidence that may tend to incriminate them, in the case of fingerprints or DNA, yes, they will, so I'm not real sure where the line is drawn.

If I kill someone, and lock the gun I use in a safe, can the courts compel me to give up the combination to the safe. I think they just crack the safe, and I think the same thing applies here, that it is incumbent on law enforcement to crack these devices, to the degree they can be cracked.

Law enforcement really has no idea what is, or is not, on an encrypted device, it's a fishing expatiation, like finding a locked room in a suspects house. They can't say what is in it, until they are able to open it. They can't use the unknown as evidence.
 
I don't believe a word that comes out of the FBI.
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LOL - no MR comment section would be complete without a good dose of leftist derangement syndrome.

Or far-rightwing "The guv'ment gonna come 'n' take my babies!" (stainless steel spaghetti strainer on their head) comments.

If I can be made by man, it can be broken down by man. It's a peeing contest in "bet you can/can't" depending on the individual invested interest.

One thing can't be denied: If your child is kidnapped, Apple or Android, you'd be begging the governments to crack that device no matter your postion before. lol
 
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I'll assume for a moment that majority of information they are trying to obtain would be in the form of text (iMessage) conversations and emails. It seems that perhaps for the first time in the history of modern technology the government has come across something they can't hack or tap. But this is only unique when you consider the technology. Otherwise, you have to acknowledge that "encrypted" conversations have been possible since the dawn of man. Anyone who has ever had a face-to-face conversation with another person has communicated in a way that could not be "hacked" after the fact without the direct cooperation of one of the participants.

Personally I think this public back-and-forth between Apple and the FBI is a show for us commoners.
 
There is a way around it; serve the warrant forcing people to enter the passcode. If they refuse, then they can serve jail time until they give up.

Companies should and must not be forced to weaken security just so governments can access the data. Governments are not entitled to everything, period.

The 5th amendment says otherwise...
 
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