FBI Unable to Retrieve Encrypted Data From 6,900 Devices Over the Last 11 Months

[fairuz]

" Apple ultimately did not capitulate and the FBI enlisted Israeli firm Cellebrite to crack the device.""

So did Apple ever close the hole to keep Israel out of the phones Apple sells as secure?

It was with an older iPhone, outdated even at the time of the cracking. I'm not 100% sure but remember seeing that this only affected older devices.

Edit: "In July 2016, Cellebrite announced it could crack iPhones up to iOS version 9.3.2 and the iPhone 5 (the latest version is 10.2)." https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/...erms-for-cellebrites-iphone-unlocking-service

 

[koruki]

if they can get into the phone then Apple would get taken to court by the consumer rights commission for advertising their phones as secure. If they put a back door it would actually MORE dangerous as we can be sure it won't just the FBI going through that door. Apple built it as secure as they know how to, which means even they themselves can not get in. The FBI is asking Apple to put a door in the future versions of the OS.

This is more worrying as surely its not childsplay to get into Android.. or is it. If so how do they justify all the secure payments on android.. like samsung pay.

 

[code-m]

That doesn’t work in cases like the San Bernardino shooter where the owner of the phone is dead.

I’m not sure what the best trade off is, once you put a back door in it is open to abuse by the government or hackers figuring it out, but there are cases where access is needed, and many of the documents that investigators would have been able to find on paper in the past to help find connections when a suspect is dead have moved to our phones so just old fashioned police work won’t always cut it.

Having a backdoor for the authorities to obtain moral and legal issues, and as you mentioned if the authorities can access it so can hackers or other nation’s governments. In this situation we jeopardize all parties, may it be for good or evil.

The government and authorities do are not immune from hackers either, if they are unable to keep they own network and information secure, we are not going to hand over backdoor access to these immoral and incompetent organizations. Yes, many companies have been hacked, however these are not publicly funded and are not looking to support its citizens.

With the corruption occurring on every level of government in many countries, the less control they have over our data and privacy the better. It seems the authorities are seeking for a easy solution rather than investigate with skill, maybe they have been watching too many prime time tv shows. Where does reality not correspond with fiction and these authorities believe they are the lead actor in some twisted fantasy.

Imagine this for a second, you give up some of your rights and freedoms to the government and authorities to catch a few evil people, the devices they use may render little to no usable information. However in the process the majority will be at risk not only from other evil agencies, but also from the elected government to be used for nefarious purposes to possibly blackmail or extort compliance.

If you want to see a possible scenario gone horrible wrong, watch the movie, “Enemy of the State” with Will Smith, Gene Hackman and Jon Voit as the named stars. I am not going to ruin the movies plot, however its a very believable scenario.

What next you say I have nothing to hide as I have done nothing wrong, remember this is up to whomever is left to interpret what you have on your phone. You may have pictures of your relatives children or work as a junior league coach with children’s picture, whomever is looking at them may suspect you are some pedophile, even though it might be completely innocent. I could use other examples, however my point is made. We do not need over policing, it only makes the public uneasy and fearful for no reason what so ever, as fear is used to control the masses/innocent to comply with nonsensical requests or be labeled a non compliant suspect.

 

[BWhaler]

Good. Super proud of Apple for protecting our rights and privacy. Love being their customer for this reason.

 

[Swazaloo]

I understand people want to keep secret how much porn they have on their phone, but this is a big issue.

It IS a big issue, we must keep big brother out at all costs. There is no middle ground. Either everyone has access, or nobody has access, I'll take the latter.

 

[ipedro]

There is a way around it; serve the warrant forcing people to enter the passcode. If they refuse, then they can serve jail time until they give up.

Companies should and must not be forced to weaken security just so governments can access the data. Governments are not entitled to everything, period.

The legal system doesn't work like that. A sentence for contempt of court or obstruction of justice has to match the crime. A sentence of life for that particular crime would be excessive so anybody facing a much harsher crime would just choose to not cooperate and would get a much lighter sentence. A system of unlimited sentencing like the one you're proposing is ripe for abuse by authorities and the government.

That said, old fashioned detective work needs to be developed and employed. When there were no phones or even today when suspects meet and discuss their crimes in person, there is no wiretapping to resort to. Police and the legal system just need to carry on as if computer evidence is not a factor. There are plenty of other ways to catch a criminal.

 

[haruhiko]

How surprising that people actually wants a police state which can intercept our communication whenever they want.

 

[76ShovelHead]

I understand people want to keep secret how much porn they have on their phone, but this is a big issue.

Maybe I'm just getting older, but I used to feel indifferent towards these matters. I've got nothing to hide, so why should I care?

Well then I realized It's not about keeping private. It's about defending what's left of our freedoms and maintaining the order of the people. No government should exude that much control/interest in the daily lives of citizens. The men and women working in central intelligence are paid to investigate potential threats, not chaperone us. Willfully handing them our private communications will only change their job descriptions and lead to abuse of power.

 

[tgara]

The very foundation of the Constitution is based on respecting the individual. Whether it be through speech, religion, the right to bear arms, the right to be secure in your home and your papers, or any other of the inherent rights to which we all are entitled. Nobody gives up those rights until after they are convicted of crimes in a court of law. As a citizen I am under no obligation to make it easy for government to track my conversations or beliefs.

You left out a very important part of your quote from the 4th amendment:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things ...

So, as the Constitution states, you do not have an absolute right to be secure. The government may access your papers and effects if there is probable cause to do so, supported by a warrant from a judge. It's been this way since 1789.

Here's what's going to happen, folks. In light of the San Bernardino shootings, the Las Vegas massacre, and other terrorist related incidents in the US and abroad, the Congress is in no mood for Apple's stonewalling. Unless Apple starts playing ball with law enforcement through the regular judicially supervised procedures, Congress is going to pass a law making their current security protocols illegal and forcing them to make systems that the government can access under certain circumstances. Even President Obama was upset with Apple's stand on this, and Mr. Trump and AG Sessions have shown themselves to be even more law and order. Nobody wants Congress to get involved, I assure you, because the chance is very good that they will screw it up. It would be much better if Apple started bending over backwards to help law enforcement, else there will be consequences for Apple and its users that will be a lot worse for everyone's security.

 

[PaulRustad007]

There is a way around it; serve the warrant forcing people to enter the passcode. If they refuse, then they can serve jail time until they give up.

Companies should and must not be forced to weaken security just so governments can access the data. Governments are not entitled to everything, period.

A passcode is a first amendment right and the government cannot compel you tell the password. If they insist, you please the 5th. A fingerprint they can get a warrant for, a face id they can compel you to, but a password is sacred ground.

 

[MistrSynistr]

Really? So the next time hundreds of people get blown the **** up, and you find out this could've been prevented will you be saying the same thing?

I don't understand this mind set. I never will. The FBI doesn't give a **** about you and me. Are you planning to kill someone? They're looking for the people who will kill us and our families.

This is a problem that WILL eventually cause death and destruction, but thats fine right?

Might want to try reading the Wikileaks smart guy. They have absolutely no invested interest in solving crimes. And in fact perpetuate or enable most of them.

 

[tgara]

" Apple ultimately did not capitulate and the FBI enlisted Israeli firm Cellebrite to crack the device.""

So did Apple ever close the hole to keep Israel out of the phones Apple sells as secure?

I seem to recall that over the summer, there was a petition by Apple or a consortium of tech companies that requested access under the Freedom of Information Act to the methods the FBI/Cellebrite used to crack into the iPhone used in the San Bernardino incident. That petition was denied by a judge because the methods used fall into a law enforcement exception to FOIA.

 

[jimbobb24]

I genuinely see both sides of this one, personally.

Yes it's not an easy problem. We all benefit from privacy but it does make some very nasty people have easier lives.

Not sure what the solution is. Tough problem.

 

[macsrcool1234]

I understand people want to keep secret how much porn they have on their phone, but this is a big issue.

No, it's not.

 

[jimbobb24]

It's one of those issues that is almost impossible to see a solution for.

If something terrible happened to you and unlocking your attackers phone was the only way to get evidence needed 99% would want to weaken security. However, if you are someone who was the victim of crime or ID theft because security was weakened you might want it strengthened.

A phone falls in the grey area between thoughts and actions. It's scary to think that it isn't secure, I'm sure just about everyone has something on their phone they'd be embarrassed of if it became public. I believe you have a right to keep that private and the company selling you the phone doesn't have the right to circumvent their own protections they've sold to you. It's like a shop selling locks that the police can have access to with a warrant but the locks were for your thoughts and private moments.

Well said. All luggage through the airport must have a lock the TSA can open. Eventually I believe the government will take a similar approach.

You dont give up freedoms for security, EVER. PERIOD. Doesnt matter what they "could have prevented".

Really? That's what government instead of anarchy is. Taxes for police. Social security. Regulations. Obamacare. This is an incredibly simplistic view. There are always trade offs.

 

[gavroche]

Really? So the next time hundreds of people get blown the **** up, and you find out this could've been prevented will you be saying the same thing?

I don't understand this mind set. I never will. The FBI doesn't give a **** about you and me. Are you planning to kill someone? They're looking for the people who will kill us and our families.

This is a problem that WILL eventually cause death and destruction, but thats fine right?

Right... because that extreme (and utterly rare scenario where they could possibly know a device contains info to prevent a terrorist attack BEFORE it happens) situation is the only time they would ever want to access peoples devices. They havent wanted to see in the devices of journalists covering political stories recently? Or in the devices of attorneys who have met with political or criminal persons recently?
Its sad when people like you pick the most extreme and sympathetic reason to want to justify it and use that as a basis for eroding our rights.

 

[sir1963nz]

You left out a very important part of your quote from the 4th amendment:



So, as the Constitution states, you do not have an absolute right to be secure. The government may access your papers and effects if there is probable cause to do so, supported by a warrant from a judge. It's been this way since 1789.

Here's what's going to happen, folks. In light of the San Bernardino shootings, the Las Vegas massacre, and other terrorist related incidents in the US and abroad, the Congress is in no mood for Apple's stonewalling. Unless Apple starts playing ball with law enforcement through the regular judicially supervised procedures, Congress is going to pass a law making their current security protocols illegal and forcing them to make systems that the government can access under certain circumstances. Even President Obama was upset with Apple's stand on this, and Mr. Trump and AG Sessions have shown themselves to be even more law and order. Nobody wants Congress to get involved, I assure you, because the chance is very good that they will screw it up. It would be much better if Apple started bending over backwards to help law enforcement, else there will be consequences for Apple and its users that will be a lot worse for everyone's security.

And here is what Apples response will be.
Apple will have an international and a domestic product.
The international products will still be secure, their iCloud etc etc will all be held outside the USA and will not be subject to US laws.
The Domestic phones will be CLEARLY labeled as "This phone has been compromised by US government order" with Apples website clearly stating how international products have superior security, however the government has forced US citizens to have the 2nd best"

There will be a mad scrambling of politicians who are **** scared their" for life" job has gone up in a puff go smoke.

Unless Apple does this they will be forced to supply a backdoor to 200 countries. If they don't products from the USA will be clearly labelled as spyware and will be blocked by every other country on earth. That means US companies miss out on access to 96% of the worlds population.

If trade stopped with the USA, yes the world would suffer, The USA would be devastated.

The USA is only 4% of the worlds population and there is NOTHING about the USA which means it can not loose.

 

[gavroche]

Just wait until thousands of US tourists go through this procedure when they travel overseas.

Ive been in Tijuana before and watched police ask sketchy looking (or just random young persons) to hand over their phones, and proceeded to browse through them looking at their messages and emails to see if they are up to no good. Its legal to do there. What the government is trying to do here is taking us down that same road... i mean, if a cop has a “reasonable suspicion” that someone maybe is about to do something bad... what can be wrong with that right? Slippery slope...
[doublepost=1508810667][/doublepost]

I just thought of something...

In the 3 weeks since the Las Vegas shooting... the largest US mass shooting in recent times... I never heard once about the shooter's phone.

Surely the cops must have been interested in who he was contacting, his photos, perhaps his location history, etc.

Did they open his phone easily? Was there anything there?

The reason the San Bernardino shooter's phone was so interesting is because they couldn't easily open it.

He had a Note 7. It was what they were referring to when they said they found explosive devices in his room...

 

[mdatwood]

I'm of the position that phones today contain so much information about a person, that they should be defined as part of said person and thus fall under the 5th amendment. That will likely never happen though.

Encryption and security is an absolute. Allowing backdoors means that both encryption and security are broken. There simply is no middle ground here.

 

[tgara]

And here is what Apples response will be.
Apple will have an international and a domestic product.
The international products will still be secure, their iCloud etc etc will all be held outside the USA and will not be subject to US laws.
The Domestic phones will be CLEARLY labeled as "This phone has been compromised by US government order" with Apples website clearly stating how international products have superior security, however the government has forced US citizens to have the 2nd best"

There will be a mad scrambling of politicians who are **** scared their" for life" job has gone up in a puff go smoke.

Unless Apple does this they will be forced to supply a backdoor to 200 countries. If they don't products from the USA will be clearly labelled as spyware and will be blocked by every other country on earth. That means US companies miss out on access to 96% of the worlds population.

If trade stopped with the USA, yes the world would suffer, The USA would be devastated.

The USA is only 4% of the worlds population and there is NOTHING about the USA which means it can not loose.

You’re making up a fictional doomsday scenario. Good for a laugh, but not really accurate in terms of what’s going on now.

The reality is that Apple is already complicit in enabling certain governments to spy on their citizens.

https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...ps-were-removed-from-china-app-store.2079075/

This shows that Apple will comply with the law, even if it goes against their corporate principles, if it means losing out on a lucrative market.

 

[michaelsviews]

I understand people want to keep secret how much porn they have on their phone, but this is a big issue.

Yep and so isnt your elected official keeping his or her word. Now didnt our government pay a firm from another country over a million dollars to get into some wing nuts iPhone?

Your carrier can provide a list of where your surfing too more than likely

 

[gavroche]

The FBI got there wish with iPhone X. Now they just have to point it at your face and they’re in. Thanks Apple!

Indeed. With touch ID they didnt know which finger you programmed. They only got three tries....

 

[Tech198]

if they can get into the phone then Apple would get taken to court by the consumer rights commission for advertising their phones as secure. If they put a back door it would actually MORE dangerous as we can be sure it won't just the FBI going through that door. Apple built it as secure as they know how to, which means even they themselves can not get in. The FBI is asking Apple to put a door in the future versions of the OS.

This is more worrying as surely its not childsplay to get into Android.. or is it. If so how do they justify all the secure payments on android.. like samsung pay.

Probably just as secure as Android, but it IS open source as well remember... Apple is not so its harder, and that will always be a good reason..

I'm not saying its easier because of ...... but i wouldn't deny it either

It IS a big issue, we must keep big brother out at all costs. There is no middle ground. Either everyone has access, or nobody has access, I'll take the latter.

Petty there is no middle ground, because I think the important thing the take away from all of this is 'trust..' always has been to a point...

We can say the same VPN's passing any info they like on, while at the same time saying to all their users "you are protected" Easy thing to actually set up and do, and it will always work.

The FBI can get the info it needs from other parties.... just makes it better to get it directly that's all.

Just because they can't get stuff, doesn't mean they can't get at it elsewhere like an icloud service

 

[IG88]

There is a way around it; serve the warrant forcing people to enter the passcode. If they refuse, then they can serve jail time until they give up.

Companies should and must not be forced to weaken security just so governments can access the data. Governments are not entitled to everything, period.

Right now I think the courts still lean on this:

A 1998 decision written by U.S. Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens in Doe v. U.S. included the now familiar explanation that an accused person may be "forced to surrender a key to a strongbox containing incriminating documents," but cannot "be compelled to reveal the combination to his wall safe."

There was a Florida case in Dec 2016 where the Court of Appeals didn't follow that interpretation. Not sure where it went from there.

 

[bommai]

Can you walk me through the logic behind your statement? If the FBI goes through the proper channels, dots I's and crosses T's, then Apple will give up your data just like any other company.

Actually that is precisely what Apple cannot do. Apple has no key to your data.