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It’s also interesting and perhaps only coincidental that my cable provider was unlimited prior to NN but set a cap last year. As a consumer, I always feel like I’m fighting for scraps, regardless.

Yeah, NN has nothing to do with your ISP capping the amount of data you use. They can cap you at 1GB if they want to. NN will not fix that for you.

So we're going back to the dark ages that we were in before 2015? Nooo!

I assume you've ignored the numerous reports of ISPs who were doing exactly the things that NN is supposed to cover, right? Blocking certain services, requiring "ransoms" for a content provider to get bandwidth, etc?
 
Yeah, NN has nothing to do with your ISP capping the amount of data you use. They can cap you at 1GB if they want to. NN will not fix that for you.



I assume you've ignored the numerous reports of ISPs who were doing exactly the things that NN is supposed to cover, right? Blocking certain services, requiring "ransoms" for a content provider to get bandwidth, etc?

I wasn’t suggesting it was or should be a provision, only that ISPs can make things difficult for customers regardless of NN rules. That could come way of price increases, data caps, bundling strategies, etc.

That said, I really don’t see the rush to remove NN, and haven’t heard a single argument that convinces me it stands in the way of anything or should be a priority for this administration.
 
I don’t generalize Republicans like I do GOP leadership (or don’t mean too), but in the latter case I’m not generalizing. The GOP and base have flushed every moderate out of their party. Could there be moderate Republicans out there? Yes, if so they are in the minority and don’t seem to have any influence on Party leadership and the direction of the party which in my estimation is right off a cliff.
 
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I don’t generalize Republicans like I do GOP leadership (or don’t mean too), but in the latter case I’m not generalizing. The GOP and base have flushed every moderate out of their party. Could there be moderate Republicans out there? Yes, if so they are in the minority and don’t seem to have any influence on Party leadership and the direction of the party which in my estimation is right off a cliff.

Dems are purging their ranks too, so don’t pretend they are not. The remaining Dems are completely crazy, off the rails and not in touch with regular Americans, and that’s a big reason why they’ve lost big time in the last 8 years. That will continue if they don’t start to moderate their extreme views.

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/12/16/dan-lipinski-conservative-democrat-election-299572
 
Of course the internet will work fine. Its just that the providers are now officially allowed to ***ck you from any angle they want. I think its hilarious that particularly a country that prides itself on the idea of individual freedom (ideology of the majority of current government voters) would be ok with corporate entities screwing around with that very freedom. Or does the concept of freedom only extend to the idea of waving guns around and litter where one pleases?

Under what circumstances does individual freedom consist of telling other people what they're allowed to do it their working equipment?
 
Under what circumstances does individual freedom consist of telling other people what they're allowed to do it their working equipment?

I really hope that you are jesting. If your question is serious, my reply would be "to prevent power abuse". Unfortunately, power is not distributed equally and thats why regulations are a necessary evil. Access to internet is a very limited resource, concentrated in the hands of very few entities, which makes hydraulic despotism likely. In this sense, net neutrality fulfils a function not unlike the second amendment. And the background of all this is of course that Internet has long became more then just a service, its a gateway from where people take their education and which enables social and business exchange.

The alternative is of course giving everyone the power to connect to internet individually. This would totally solve the problem, as it would make abuse impossible from the onset, but unfortunately, not really doable.
 
Of note, net neutrality is all about equality. :rolleyes: :oops: This is not to imply there were no fake submissions for net neutrality.

IT'S SUPER HARD TO FIND HUMANS IN THE FCC’S NET NEUTRALITY COMMENTS
Researchers at FiscalNote previously identified nearly one million comments as bot submissions, all of them opposing net neutrality.




But Obama made a pro-repeal comment, from the White House of all places and in May of this year. Thanks Obama

https://www.fcc.gov/ecfs/filing/1051157755251


LOL these ***** FCC idiots.
 
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Dems are purging their ranks too, so don’t pretend they are not. The remaining Dems are completely crazy, off the rails and not in touch with regular Americans, and that’s a big reason why they’ve lost big time in the last 8 years. That will continue if they don’t start to moderate their extreme views.

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/12/16/dan-lipinski-conservative-democrat-election-299572
I find it really ironic that you claim the democrats are being "extremists" while not recognizing that your own views on NN are likewise extremist. I also find it amazing to see how well the ISP propaganda about innovation and govt. over reach has worked on a large segment of the population. I knew the ISPs were evil but even I'm shocked to see this level deception.

In a nutshell NN is about the ISPs wanting to increase profits. That's it. If you believe you are underpaying for the internet then you should be against NN. If you believe you are overpaying or paying a fair amount for internet then you should be for NN. Alternatively if you believe in competition or freedom then you should be in favor of NN.

Profit = Revenue (Quantity x Price) - Costs. This is the fundamental business formula. NN is about increasing profit from price rather than quantity.

Maybe the most misleading statements is "removing NN will just restore the internet to where it was 2 years ago." WRONG. To understand NN, it's important to understand the market. 20 years ago, internet was in the growth phase. Costs were high because of emerging technology + infrastructure costs. Websites were basic, many of the current platforms were yet to be created or popularized (e.g. YouTube) so consumer demand was fairly low and people were price-elastic. This means that during the growth phase, the ISPs focused on increasing revenue by driving down costs and increasing subscriptions (quantity).

Today the internet is very different. It's a mature platform so growth is limited by population growth. Consumer preferences have changed as well. People view the internet as a necessity and life revolves around getting information online (e.g. doing homework), entertainment like Netflix or shopping like Amazon. Hence people are less price elastic then they were in the past. Society has warped around the internet. This gives ISPs the incentivize to raise prices. The question is how? Market Segmentation.

If you look at current prices, the ISPs segment the market based on people's preference for speed. People that are willing to pay extra for fast speed get charged more. This is standard price discrimination. In order to increase prices, ISPs need to be able to analyze people's preferences and target those preferences. Currently they do that based on speed. Without NN, ISPs can go 1 step forward and instead of targeting a person's "overall" speed preference, they can target individual website preference. Netflix uses 1/3rd of all the bandwidth online. The majority of people first start shopping online by typing into Amazon rather than a search engine. Now that the internet has matured, People's tastes have become homogenous and this makes it easy to target those preferences. So what is the plan? Make Internet like Cable. Have different packages for shopping, sports or movies and charge people extra. Simple. Or alternatively charge the major tech companies (Netflix) more to get their data to consumers (with the price increase being then based onto consumers through higher fees).

NN is all about who will control the value from the internet. ISPs, Tech firms, and/or consumers. Right now Tech companies and consumers are capturing the value. ISPs want to change the system so they capture value. The idea that this is about innovation and without price increases, ISPs won't be able to compete is total BS. AT&T makes 3B a quarter. For context American Airlines makes 3B a year. ISPs are a very profitable industry and they aren't struggling to stay in business. This is about money plain and simple.

Lastly, freedom. One of the side effects of the ISPs ability to control the internet is that they can reduce traffic to website or services that they don't like (.e.g bittorent) and this also applies to new technology like blockchain. Imagine if the ISPs go after the exchanges, they could severely damage the coin market. So by deregulating ISPs, it gives them the freedom to infringe on our freedom of choice. This is essentially the fundamental theory of regulation, balancing different freedoms of different competing groups.
 
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Dems are purging their ranks too, so don’t pretend they are not. The remaining Dems are completely crazy, off the rails and not in touch with regular Americans, and that’s a big reason why they’ve lost big time in the last 8 years. That will continue if they don’t start to moderate their extreme views.

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/12/16/dan-lipinski-conservative-democrat-election-299572
I disagree with your characterization, especially your description, another equivalence argument to justify , (I assume) your political party whom is in tatters by any measure of honesty, integrity, ideology, and good ideas, but that is to be expected as I anticipate you will fire that back at Democrats. We live on different political planets.

Democrats leadership are left to moderate, Republican leadership in contrast is extreme right. The problem with many Republicans is that they are so far right, anyone to the left of them is considered a flaming liberal, even those in the political spectrum who are moderates. Let’s see what happens in the mid terms. The most illustrative aspect of our political races is when we have elections won by 51%, half of the country is still angry.
 
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Dems are purging their ranks too, so don’t pretend they are not. The remaining Dems are completely crazy, off the rails and not in touch with regular Americans, and that’s a big reason why they’ve lost big time in the last 8 years. That will continue if they don’t start to moderate their extreme views.

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/12/16/dan-lipinski-conservative-democrat-election-299572

I have to agree here. Both sides are completely out of touch with regular folks.
 
I disagree with your characterization, especially your description, another equivalence argument to justify , (I assume) your political party whom is in tatters by any measure of honesty, integrity, ideology, and good ideas, but that is to be expected as I anticipate you will fire that back at Democrats. We live on different political planets.

Democrats leadership are left to moderate, Republican leadership in contrast is extreme right. The problem with many Republicans is that they are so far right, anyone to the left of them is considered a flaming liberal, even those in the political spectrum who are moderates. Let’s see what happens in the mid terms. The most illustrative aspect of our political races is when we have elections won by 51%, half of the country is still angry.
Won't these mid terms just prove to be the same as what we had with Obama? Nothing will get done before the other sides wants to turn down everything? I like having balance, but the Republicans made it their goal to try and turn down almost anything Obama did, I don't see much changing if the control goes back to Dems. Just more hold ups on anything new. Not that I want Trump ideas, but I think we will just have another stale mate.
 
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Won't these mid terms just prove to be the same as what we had with Obama? Nothing will get done before the other sides wants to turn down everything? I like having balance, but the Republicans made it their goal to try and turn down almost anything Obama did, I don't see much changing if the control goes back to Dems. Just more hold ups on anything new. Not that I want Trump ideas, but I think we will just have another stale mate.
You probably are correct. I eluded to this in my 51% comment. As long as elections are split down the middle, we’ll have gridlock and it will continue with nothing getting done.

Or as applied to my individual perspective , nothing but bad things are being accomplished, undermining health care, a BS tax plan, removing net neutrality, etc with the focus on profits and not average people. If the electorate does not come to their senses, I predict we will muddle along until something breaks or we go broke.
 
Won't these mid terms just prove to be the same as what we had with Obama? Nothing will get done before the other sides wants to turn down everything? I like having balance, but the Republicans made it their goal to try and turn down almost anything Obama did, I don't see much changing if the control goes back to Dems. Just more hold ups on anything new. Not that I want Trump ideas, but I think we will just have another stale mate.
Gridlock has a redeeming quality all of its own. It often stop bad legislation getting through and the members of congress usually find their sanity, for a while, at least. The Republicans are drunk with their current power and are showing themselves to be a clear and present danger to the republic and freedom in general. Mostly due to who is pulling their strings and backing them.
 
You probably are correct. I eluded to this in my 51% comment. As long as elections are split down the middle, we’ll have gridlock and it will continue with nothing getting done.

Or as applied to my individual perspective , nothing but bad things are being accomplished, undermining health care, a BS tax plan, removing net neutrality, etc with the focus on profits and not average people. If the electorate does not come to their senses, I predict we will muddle along until something breaks or we go broke.
I think it might be a good thing. At least keep some of Trumps terrible ideas at bay. At the very least keep some of the good policies Obama made in place. I don't know that they will be able to pass much with the Dems win a lot of these mid terms.
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Gridlock has a redeeming quality all of its own. It often stop bad legislation getting through and the members of congress usually find their sanity, for a while, at least. The Republicans are drunk with their current power and are showing themselves to be a clear and present danger to the republic and freedom in general. Mostly due to who is pulling their strings and backing them.
Yeah I think Gridlock might be a good thing here. This might keep Trump dumb *** from getting anything done, but keep some of the decent policies Obama had in place. I am no way an Obama fan, but he had much better policies than Trump.
 
Gridlock has a redeeming quality all of its own. It often stop bad legislation getting through and the members of congress usually find their sanity, for a while, at least. The Republicans are drunk with their current power and are showing themselves to be a clear and present danger to the republic and freedom in general. Mostly due to who is pulling their strings and backing them.

9EBAF9E7-80F3-4462-876A-6C4A0CE71443.jpeg

C0E01FCC-B3EA-4728-8CE1-41AFA1E2744F.jpeg
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I think it might be a good thing. At least keep some of Trumps terrible ideas at bay. At the very least keep some of the good policies Obama made in place. I don't know that they will be able to pass much with the Dems win a lot of these mid terms.
[doublepost=1513611682][/doublepost]
Yeah I think Gridlock might be a good thing here. This might keep Trump dumb *** from getting anything done, but keep some of the decent policies Obama had in place. I am no way an Obama fan, but he had much better policies than Trump.
Unfortunately Trump with the help of the GOP has done nothing for fixing health care and are about to pile a huge amount of more debt on the country while lying about what a great thing they are doing. As I’ve said as long as we as a society accept this, we get what we deserve. :mad:
 
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Unfortunately Trump with the help of the GOP has done nothing for fixing health care and are about to pile a huge amount of more debt on the country while lying about what a great thing they are doing. As I’ve said as long as we as a society accept this, we get what we deserve. :mad:
That means not much will change. Obamacare will stick around until someone comes up with something new and can get both sides to agree on it. As for this Net Neutrality mess, I believe we are going to have to wait on a new president with a new FCC before that changes. While we the consumers are stuck with horrible internet service.
 
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Clinton would never be a divider like a Trump is.
He got go and probably will sooner than later. That guy has been a crook for decades so his time is coming.

You sound like you are talking about Hillary. There is a reason the nickname Crooked Hillary stuck to her like glue.
 
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Unfortunately Trump with the help of the GOP has done nothing for fixing health care and are about to pile a huge amount of more debt on the country while lying about what a great thing they are doing. As I’ve said as long as we as a society accept this, we get what we deserve. :mad:

Legit, as long as you remember that that oligarchy has existed for both sides for decades. The democrats hands are far from clean and folks like Soro's buy and sell politicians, money and favours just as much, if not moreso than the Kochs. Hillary was bought and paid for, just like Trump and Obama. That's just the way it's been for a very long time. Get the money out of it and it might be a different story, but until that day, both wings of the Boot On Your Neck Party must be recognised to be unclean, bought and paid for by their money changers and not working in the best interests of the people of this country.

oligarchy_0.jpg
 
Unfortunately, power is not distributed equally

What power is this? The power to provide value to other people's lives? Is their ability to make your life better the justification for you to have a claim on their lives?

concentrated in the hands of very few entities

I sit now in a suburb with access to at least 8 different internet options that I can pull off the top of my head. Comcast, Frontier, AT&T, Verizon, T-Mobile, Sprint, PagePlus, StraightTalk. I do not understand, however, how the range of selection you have available to you to improve your life, in this case with internet, gives you a right to control the people who a re capable of providing it.
 
From? You mean toward. I find the idea that only the govt. = evil, corporates = good, preposterous. You and the rest of the republicans are going to have to learn the hard way not to trust private corporations to look out in your best interest.

They are right. Watch as the ISPs slowly change your internet packages. Or start to charge co. you use like Amazon, Google, YouTube more money...and those cost increases are passed onto you, the consumer.

It's funny you think I'm a Republican (hint: I'm not). I trust corporations no more than governments (I generally trust the U.S. government and generally trust corporations).

I am not in favor of the repealing of NN regulations (although if it results in Congress passing a NN law then the rollback was worth it). I'd like to see the U.S. count internet access as a utility and even go further and subsidize access (similar to health insurance, which should be a single-payer system like Canada or some of the EU - how many Republicans say that?).

All I objected to are all the ridiculous arguments people/media were making regarding the issue. I had friends/colleagues/students (the most vociferous were some of my students - I'm university faculty) freaking out over the issue because they thought the internet was going to change into something unrecognizable as soon as the regulations were rolled back. Will priority lanes be made? Possibly. Will this destroy the internet? Not likely.
 
friends/colleagues/students (the most vociferous were some of my students - I'm university faculty) freaking out over the issue because they thought the internet was going to change into something unrecognizable as soon as the regulations were rolled back. Will priority lanes be made? Possibly. Will this destroy the internet? Not likely.

define unrecognizable.I would consider multi tier packages and not being able to access certain sites unrecognizable.
 
It’s also interesting and perhaps only coincidental that my cable provider was unlimited prior to NN but set a cap last year.
Setting a cap vs NN - not cause and effect. It was a direct result of some offering 1TB vs others (Comcast) offering only 300GB.

DSL is broadband, though. We get almost 1-2Mb on DSL here, on a good day with nobody else on (I mean in the area).

No!

Nothing less than 3Mb is broadband, and that is just for watching HD (1080p) streaming. DSL has never been consistently over 3Mb. Interactive gaming, multiple users in a single household, etc., will not be possible at even 6Mb per.

Cable internet has always been better than DSL; fiber optic even better.

NN is to prevent Comcast, Charter, etc., from extorting more money from Netflix, YouTube, and the new startups, by threatening throttling. The cost of such blackmail will be passed to the consumer, the antithesis of Capitalism.
 
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No!

Nothing less than 3Mb is broadband, and that is just for watching HD (1080p) streaming. DSL has never been consistently over 3Mb. Interactive gaming, multiple users in a single household, etc., will not be possible at even 6Mb per.

Cable internet has always been better than DSL; fiber optic even better.
You may wish to consult a dictionary. Broadband has never been about speed; it's about the technology behind the connection.

One neighborhood I lived in about 10 years ago had 18Mb DSL and 20Mb cable. The cable was always slower due to its shared architecture. The fiber optic system in our area is spotty at best. Even though everyone gets glass to the house, several people are plagued with having to reboot routers and all sorts of nonsense.

Long story short, DSL is broadband, but it may not be fast enough for your needs. I am with you on NN. It needs to stay.
 
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