Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Net neutrality sounds great if looked at from one perspective. And if looked at from a worst case perspective.

But also remember that these companies need the customers in order to survive. So shifting where we spend money will also shift company policies.

It isn’t unreasonable to some extent for a company to try to balance its load and manage resources. So if you are a heavy data user, and you can’t live without Netflix and YouTube and downloading torrents all day, then I’m happy to let you pay more for your internet usage.

Let the rest of us that aren’t intensive data users have our cheap internet back.

Requiring companies to provide maximum access to everything means they have to build and maintain a network capable of having every single subscriber downloading data at maximum bandwidth simultaneously. That’s a huge cost that they now spread to all of us, instead of just some of us now.

A couple years back, I paid $19 a month for Internet access that provided me with everything I needed.

Now my cheapest Internet option is $99 month, whether I need that level of service or not.

The expense of providing the level of service that net neutrality requires, also decreased competition. My local area went from 40 ISP choices in in a 100 mile range, to now having only 2 options total to cover the entire state.

So with the loss of competition, guess who suffers. The consumer.

So yeah, bring back the open market. Let the ISP’s fight for our use. Let the little guys back in, even if they can’t meet the load that the big guys can carry. If they can offer a better price and provide a level of service sufficient for my needs, then great.

Get enough of those little guys back in operation, and the big guys will start dropping prices again.

So I’d say open the market back up. Let it balance itself. We’re the consumers. And our spending will control the big guys (as long as you are willing to move your spending to enact change).

We don’t need the government limiting our options. Voting with your wallet is power.


I'd agree with you IF the majority of American's had a good number of reasonable options. But you are advocating for choice where there is none.

This isn't like buying a car, or a phone or a TV. The majority have one option and even there it's usually poor and overpriced. How can you sit there and say 'consumers will shift their spending habbits' - do you not understand the stangehold ISP's in the US have? The internet is no longer a luxury but a necessity for modern work and life.

Once again you are showing your massive levels of ignorance NN != data caps, they can still happily charge less for a service that provides less data. You clearly have no idea what NN is.

Requiring companies to provide maximum access to everything means they have to build and maintain a network capable of having every single subscriber downloading data at maximum bandwidth simultaneously.

Yes EXACTLY! But the consumer is PAYING FOR IT! Do you not understand how the internet works and the fundamental principles of packet transmission?

Jesus christ this post is another example of sheer ignorance on the issue of NN.

Most ISP's have corrupted and warped their position to make it close to impossible for new guys to enter the market. You can't demand competition and be anti-NN and claim NN made everything more expensive. If you actually had the faintest idea of what you were talking about you would understand that before Title 2 (aka NN) you had Title 1 which protected you. You've basically never not had NN, only differing degrees. Also Comcast's infrastructure spending INCREASED under Title 2.
 
They told me I was crazy, but I knew this day would come and I have devoted my life to preparing for this exact situation. I have enough of a stash to get me through the darkest times. Bring it on, I am ready.

I am not prepared as you appear to be.
I was really trying to save my vacation time for Arbor Day and all or that time to save the endangered red Naugahyde.

Now my priority may have to be shifted to up date my “archives”
 
Those heavy data users likely are paying more for their Internet usage - either their desire for higher speeds or their problems of running into monthly bandwidth caps have likely driven them to higher levels of service (Deluxe, Preferred, Ultimate, SuperGreen, whatever), where your ISP charges them more for faster network access and more bandwidth for the month.

Your cheap Internet didn't go away because of people using YouTube and Netflix, your prices didn't go up because of Net Neutrality, they went up because networking technology is changing, because customer's desires are changing, and because the bigger networking companies are merging into ever bigger companies, reducing competition and making it harder for the little guys to compete. Those big networking companies are also lobbying hard at the local, state, and federal level to cut down on competition and put roadblocks in the way of any potential new competitors.

You're blaming Net Neutrality for changes in the network landscape that it is not responsible for.

Net Neutrality doesn't say the companies have to provide unlimited bandwidth access to anything. It doesn't spec any particular levels at all. It only says, they can't decide to block or throttle your access to any part of the Internet. It's about what you can get to. The control over how fast / how much is part of your monthly contract between you and your ISP. You pay for a specified amount of bandwidth at a given speed, and you should be able to "spend" that data transmission allotment wherever, whenever, and however you want on the Internet.

If you pay for a 50mbit/sec connection with a 100 gigabyte/month limit, then you should be able to access whatever you want at 50mbit/sec, up until you hit your 100 GB limit. The ISP decides what levels of service it will offer. If the ISP is advertising a particular level of service, and accepting payment for that, then they're on the hook to provide that level of service. Now, of course, they can study the situation and determine that it's unlikely that all their customers will ever use that maximum amount of bandwidth at the same time, and then only build out their system to handle a lesser amount of traffic, and/or only pay for smaller pipes to the other networking companies. And maybe that works. Or maybe that works for a while and then their customer's usage patterns change. That could spell trouble (the company failing to meet their advertised level of service, customers getting angry, etc.). Now, that is entirely on the ISP - it's not Netflix's fault (they're just making data available), it's not the customer's fault (they're pulling data from Netflix at a speed determined by their contract with the ISP). If the ISP couldn't provide all their customers with that level of service simultaneously, and the customers are trying to use it, that's the ISP's fault for skimping on their back-end infrastructure - they should not have advertised and sold their customers service that they cannot provide. Remember, they decided what speeds and bandwidth allotments to offer, and for what prices.

Before Net Neutrality became a thing, we had ISPs saying, "gee, all this streaming traffic that our customers are pulling from Netflix is really swamping our pipes from the Internet - so... Netflix should pay us for this, if they want it to keep running full-speed". That's absolutely nuts. The ISP's customers are already fully paying the ISP to send/receive data across their network to the Internet, and Netflix is already fully paying for network access and data bandwidth and such at their end. The ISP wants to be paid twice for the same data transmission, both by their customers and by Netflix.

Net Neutrality doesn't demand any specific levels of bandwidth. It only says that the ISP can't prevent you from accessing content from any particular site - either by them deciding to block customer access to something they don't agree with (yes, this kind of thing has actually happened, numerous times), or by them deciding to artificially slow access to some site (because their customers are using it a lot, or because they consider it in their financial interest to do so - e.g. an ISP that has its own movie streaming service they want you to buy so they artificially slow down customer access to Netflix).

The situations we were starting to run into before Net Neutrality became a thing looked an awful lot like protection rackets, except instead of a shady mob character saying, "you've got a nice store here, it'd be a shame if it burned down", it was ISPs saying to sites like Netflix, "that's a lovely movie site you have, it'd be a shame if your videos streamed slowly to our customers". That's a shakedown. Is that what you want to go back to?

The guy is either a troll or a collosal idiot. He has no idea what he is talking about and just spewing his political non-sense.
[doublepost=1526034165][/doublepost]
what could consumers possibly gain by being against NN?

Nothing, it's just idiots that have no idea what NN is and are drinking the Republican/Corporitist koolaid.
 
The guy is either a troll or a collosal idiot. He has no idea what he is talking about and just spewing his political non-sense.
[doublepost=1526034165][/doublepost]

Nothing, it's just idiots that have no idea what NN is and are drinking the Republican/Corporitist koolaid.

I agree we need protection from the bully providers and whom better than the government to protect us.
 
Lol. Hardly any of those did any real damage. Also, one companies bad decision is another company's opportunity to capitalize on... AKA Free Market/Competition. I'm glad you googled a list tho without any true background.
Didn't I read somewhere that 50% of all Americans have only a choice of 1 ISP? So ISPs who know they're the only option in certain areas can do whatever they want to their consumers knowing that there will not be competition to weed them out. Since ISPs often own local infrastructures as well, so the chance of a new ISP coming into an area is usually very very slim.

So there you are, living in an area with only 1 ISP, getting throttled on certain websites/services because of whatever reasons maybe political or otherwise, but you see this as a chance for the free market to take charge? Don't make me laugh. There are certain situations where the free market doesn't work fairly enough for the people at large and this is one of them.
 
Didn't I read somewhere that 50% of all Americans have only a choice of 1 ISP? So ISPs who know they're the only option in certain areas can do whatever they want to their consumers knowing that there will not be competition to weed them out. Since ISPs often own local infrastructures as well, so the chance of a new ISP coming into an area is usually very very slim.

So there you are, living in an area with only 1 ISP, getting throttled on certain websites/services because of whatever reasons maybe political or otherwise, but you see this as a chance for the free market to take charge? Don't make me laugh. There are certain situations where the free market doesn't work fairly enough for the people at large and this is one of them.

Exactly. The people who object NN either are super selfless and want to support corporate profit at the cost of their own interest, or are brainwashed by crooked politicians to support whatever they say, including “free market will save everything”, but in the end it’s just a game played by the big corporates and the politicians.
 
The "net neutrality" crowd to me is very Chicken Little. Even that list that one member posted here... none of it seemed at all threatening, just normal activity in a free society, much of it resolved just fine in the market.
 
The "net neutrality" crowd to me is very Chicken Little. Even that list that one member posted here... none of it seemed at all threatening, just normal activity in a free society, much of it resolved just fine in the market.

Chicken little? Blocking of competiton isn't scary? You can almost be certain the likes of Spotify and Netflix wouldn't exist today without NN. What's stopping Amazon from paying Comcast to block every other online retailer?

How about you give us some valid reasons why NN should be scrapped?
 
That's why you keep backups hidden off site in strategic places.
Before owning a house I didn’t have a place to store hard copies. If I hide stuff locally I’d forget where I’d hid stuff. I’d be setting up a “honey what is this” landmine. Ever had your S.O. find your stash? I’d need a binding UN resolution to protect me.

Now I have access to a crawl space. Yeah. Perfect place to hide stuff. Too late though. All the classic stuff is gone.
 
Before owning a house I didn’t have a place to store hard copies. If I hide stuff locally I’d forget where I’d hid stuff. I’d be setting up a “honey what is this” landmine. Ever had your S.O. find your stash? I’d need a binding UN resolution to protect me.

Now I have access to a crawl space. Yeah. Perfect place to hide stuff. Too late though. All the classic stuff is gone.
That's why you put everything in an encrypted dmg, and you give it some plain name like "core services library" and change the extension to something that's unrelated.

You guys are helpless.
 
That's why you put everything in an encrypted dmg, and you give it some plain name like "core services library" and change the extension to something that's unrelated.

You guys are helpless.
lol... I've tried that before. I went too long before accessing it and I forgot the password.

I learned it's much easier to just use a browser. Only Google knows and no trace is left locally. Providing I don't screw up and use a non-private tab.
 
The internet was fine before the Net Neutrality act. You'll most-likely notice no difference in internet usage. This also creates a more free and open market.
Market for what exactly? Blackmailing service providers and Mafia business practices?
 
Exactly. The people who object NN either are super selfless and want to support corporate profit at the cost of their own interest, or are brainwashed by crooked politicians to support whatever they say, including “free market will save everything”, but in the end it’s just a game played by the big corporates and the politicians.
I would stand up for the corporate profit if it were fair. Anticompetitive business practices aren't fair, and they hurt corps too.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tzm41
For anti NN folks: how has the internet gotten worse since NN was in place? What are specific examples?
Your standard of evaluation is wrong. The standard is not "how can we best use the assets of another individual for our most efficient collective good?" The standard is "who owns what, and do they have a right to control what they own. (And if they own it, but don't have the right to control it, that is the definition of fascism, and they don't actually own it.)"

The internet has gotten worse, because a bunch of people in this country decided they had the right to gang up on a bunch of property owners, and force them to provide them with a service they demanded. They decided that because this group of people was capable of providing them with a service, that they had a right to force them to provide it; they decided that they had a right to the services of another person, because that person was able to serve them.

Now, if you, or anyone else sees that as a problem, then there may be hope for this country yet. If you guys don't see a problem with it........ Then you're not worthy of this country, or this life frankly, and there's not much more anyone can say on the topic to reason with you all about it...
 
The level of ignorance on this thread is astounding.

People bleating that the government should keep their hands off the internet and things were fine before NN.

People need to understand that before Title 2 (aka NN) there was the weaker Title 1 which protected them to an extent. Even then ISP's were routinely abusing their position. The internet is about to be in the complete control of giant, billion dollar ISP's and some people seem to be fine with that. I'm pretty shocked, as a non-American I understand there's a huge level of anti-government sentiment but jesus christ - you'd rather support Comcast and Verizon? What is wrong with you?

You have some of the worst service at some of the highest prices in the Western World. People need to understand regulating a UTILITY is necessary as there's only one option in many areas. Regulation is what got you cheap, universal electricity supplies.

Honestly, stop thinking like a fanatic and start trying to understand what is at play here. Because a lot of people are looking pretty stupid on this thread.
I agree! I’ve noticed it’s right wing people from the politics forum that seem to be okay with removing NN, still supporting it despite all the things you posted too!
Sucks to be an American internet user..... I feel sorry for you guys
 
I agree! I’ve noticed it’s right wing people from the politics forum that seem to be okay with removing NN, still supporting it despite all the things you posted too!
Sucks to be an American internet user..... I feel sorry for you guys

I'm pretty right wing myself and I saw a poll on Ars Technica that showed that most Republican voters are actually in favour of NN which makes it such a bizarre situation. I think I'd describe myself as libertarian - someone who is fiscally conservative, believes in a small government/low tax/ low welfare economy but still understands the need for strong regulation, I support gay marriage, the decriminalisation of drugs. I'm also firmly against mass immigration but in favour of sensible levels of skilled immigration. Also government lobbying should be a serious crime.

I'm British but my other half is American so I do see it from both sides. I'll debate with people on anything in a reasonable way, but I have yet to hear a single honest reasonable argument for scrapping NN. I just hear things like 'things were fine before Obama brought in NN' which is absolutely untrue. Or something in regards to free markets which again, makes no sense due to government corruption and lobbying by ISP's to crush competition, not too mention the sheer cost and difficulty involved in deploying fibre optic networks from scratch. It's a bit like saying free markets will give us a cheap, universal electrical grid or a phone network - that's not how it works people.

To me nationwide ultra high speed fibre optic connections that are cheap and unlimited should be mandatory. There's no reason it shouldn't be that way other than politics, and it's absolutely critical to the future growth and development of any advanced economy. The internet and technology is at the heart of driving the US economy and these idiots want to hand the keys over to Comcast and Verizon? Pretty speechless at that level of reasoning.
 
Actually it was not.
It was fine. It will be fine. Another "THE WORLD IS ENDING AND OH MY GOD" moment from the left. From NN, to the Paris Climate Accords, to the Iran "deal," to bathrooms, to transexuals, to whatever...the sky is always, ALWAYS, falling and yet everything turns out alright.

So, please. Please keep the hysterics up. It means more votes for the right when you Chicken Little every single issue in your bizarre need to tilt at windmills like Don Quixote.
 
It was fine. It will be fine. Another "THE WORLD IS ENDING AND OH MY GOD" moment from the left. From NN, to the Paris Climate Accords, to the Iran "deal," to bathrooms, to transexuals, to whatever...the sky is always, ALWAYS, falling and yet everything turns out alright.

So, please. Please keep the hysterics up. It means more votes for the right when you Chicken Little every single issue in your bizarre need to tilt at windmills like Don Quixote.
You must have missed the posts from users more familiar with this than yourself.... it would seem. As one user, an admitted right wing person, pointed out flaws with the removal of NN. You should read it..... if you load up the article it’s one of the top rated comments from this user= https://forums.macrumors.com/members/827538.827538/
Good luck
Ps that was some outburst at the end of your post. You should keep it up. It means more votes for the left as people see such vitriol and ignorance of subjects from right wing people etc etc

I’ll save you the time as I had the link open in another tab on my iPhone 8+ https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...-to-block-repeal.2118314/page-2#post-26047898
 
  • Like
Reactions: CarlJ
You must have missed the posts from users more familiar with this than yourself.... it would seem. As one user, an admitted right wing person, pointed out flaws with the removal of NN. You should read it..... if you load up the article it’s one of the top rated comments from this user= https://forums.macrumors.com/members/827538.827538/
Good luck
Ps that was some outburst at the end of your post. You should keep it up. It means more votes for the left as people see such vitriol and ignorance of subjects from right wing people etc etc

I’ll save you the time as I had the link open in another tab on my iPhone 8+ https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...-to-block-repeal.2118314/page-2#post-26047898
It's fine. Everything will work out and nobody will be the worse off, as per usual. And you and the left will slink back under your slimy rocks and crawl back out again when the next thing offends you or whatever. Rinse, repeat.

The internet and the world will be quite fine, despite the histrionics.
 
Yeah exactly. Companies in an actual free market cannot abuse their customers because then the customers will leave. Companies don’t exist without customers.
[doublepost=1526024935][/doublepost]
But most customers only look at prices. They don't consider if children made their products, or if the company pollutes the planet by dumping toxic waste in a river, or if people in low wage countries are abused. Companies can get a way with a lot if they're only judged by public opinion. We need strict and enforced laws.
 
It was fine. It will be fine. Another "THE WORLD IS ENDING AND OH MY GOD" moment from the left. From NN, to the Paris Climate Accords, to the Iran "deal," to bathrooms, to transexuals, to whatever...the sky is always, ALWAYS, falling and yet everything turns out alright.

So, please. Please keep the hysterics up. It means more votes for the right when you Chicken Little every single issue in your bizarre need to tilt at windmills like Don Quixote.
Funny thing is, I'm not from the left. Not the right either.

Talk about polarisation. It seems like the right is doing just as much damage as the left these days.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tzm41
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.