Feral: Apple Silicon Opens Up 'Exciting Opportunities' for the Future of Mac Gaming

[urib2]

I'd get a PlayStation or Xbox and a nice library of games. I ain't a real gamer since I'm not a fan of WASD.? Not a fan of WASD?!? Blasphamy, y'all say.? Burn the heretic.

The big advantage of PC gaming compared to consoles, is the freedom to control the game, change the experience with the help of mods, online games without having to pay monthly.
A large selection of games with backward compatibility to older games, emulators that run Nintendo games better than the switch itself, exclusive games from PlayStation and also XBOX together, as on the PC you enjoy two consoles together.
And lastly, if you have the economic option, then you can enjoy the extreme gaming experience of 3080/3090 TI cards and soon the RTX 4000 series.

 

[urib2]

That has nothing to do with lack of mac support. Major game engines support metal and developers dont even have to know they are building metal games. It really is a non issue.

The issue is that developers live and die on PC and have no interest on porting onto mac even tho its just a few extra steps.

You have no idea how much money and resources it takes to port a game to a different platform, especially since it's a different architecture from X86.
Even Sony has acquired a company that specializes in porting games to PC to port sony exclusive games to PC, to remind you that both the PlayStation and PC are on the same X86 architecture.

 

[Homy]

My bad. I was not focused on what I was reading when I read and responded to your comment.

Adding the differences in performance between the GPUs was incorrect of me. I misunderstood what you had written.

GPU performance by way of increased cores is still not going to help much on a lot of games. The CPU single core performance does matter because we’re talking about a SoC.

My point is that the M1 Ultra and below are not that great for gaming, even if games were written natively for the platform. The performance will be comparable to mid-range gaming laptops at best. Not horrible, but without that native support it’s all moot.

I agree that M1 Ultra has proved to be disappointing in gaming tests since its performance for some reason doesn't seem to scale well with the added GPU cores. Seems that some software optimizations are needed to take advantage of all the GPU cores. M1 CPU not offering higher clock speeds also seems to bottleneck the gaming performance in some degree, not that GHz is everything. But no one buys M1 Ultra primarily for gaming.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Apple has demonstrated time and again that modern, AAA gaming is not an interest to them. Their graphics are more tuned towards the video editors and 3D model makers of the world and it seems they want to keep it that way.

I think the industry has demonstrated time and again that they’re not interested in developing for Apple platforms. For the most part, even Mac users aren’t interested in macOS gaming. For the last several years Mac users have been focused on Windows gaming on their Macs. Today, Mac users are focused on how to use different tools to get Windows games to run on their Macs.

The best case scenario “native M1 Mac gaming” is at the peak of a structure that includes far too many easier to reach stopping points. The crossover tools that allow Windows games to play on Macs, the virtualization tools that allow running Windows on top of macOS for gaming, using Rosetta 2 to get most of the way there, etc. The developers may be making money from macOS users without even realizing it due to some of these solutions.

 

[Homy]

Shadow of the Tomb Raider,
It's a relatively old game compared to AAA games today, like CP2077, RDR2, DL2 ...
Beyond that, Shadow of the Tomb Raider version for PC supports RT which is not supported on Mac.

Obvious facts but the discussion was about that game on M1.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

I agree that M1 Ultra has proved to be disappointing in gaming tests since its performance for some reason doesn't seem to scale well with the added GPU cores.

The performance scales well when the code is using Metal. If the code is going through a couple of inefficient translation layers first, then no, it’s not going to scale well For applications that properly utilize Metal, developers see a significant increase in performance and that’s even BEFORE they tweak and optimize for further performance.

BUT, those developers are not writing entertainment applications that, to some degree, have to be as cross platform as possible in order to maximize investment.

 

[cylack]

Until the day Apple creates or buys a first party AAA gaming studio, I will not believe they are remotely serious about gaming.

Exactly. They are serious about Apple TV+ being a success because they put a lot of money into producing original tv shows and movies. They need to show the same level of commitment to gaming if they want it to succeed on the Mac. Bungie was a Mac developer originally and Marathon was a AAA game for its time developed only for the Mac. So, it has been done before.

 

[Eorlas]

With the M1's amazing GPUs, every Mac sold today can double as a gaming console, in terms of graphics performance but also in the uniformity of the hardware available to the software developer. All that's needed now is the games.

no, all that's needed now is a proper and supported implementation of Vulkan or DirectX. stop blaming the games. Apple goes out of their way to create an API they have yet to update in I'm not entirely sure how many years when there are already APIs out there that they can use. Vulkan would almost certainly be the right choice.

but instead "all that's needed is the games" puts the onus on developers to work with yet another API *just* for the Mac platform.

no, absolutely not. I'm a gamer and this is absurd. support Vulkan.

 

[IlluminatedSage]

this is good news, hope that many game are able to take advantage of the rising user base on Apple Silicon.

 

[star-affinity]

Don't you think it's a little absurd how much raw compute (especially GPU) is needed for a PC game to run decently well today?

No. I mean, in what way is it different now compared to how it has always been?
You mean the jump to 4K (i.e. four times the pixels of 1080p which ”Full HD” TV's used to have) is difficult to keep up at 60 frames per second also for the most powerful PC's? It is a very big jump in pixels to push. But depending on the game it can work well.

I have an 12 year old 12-core Mac Pro from 2010 which I have upgraded with AMD RC 5700 XT graphics that was released about two years ago. It can run the game Apex Legends in Windows 10 with maxed out graphics settings at 1920 x 1200 pixels and averages at about 100 frames per second. Not bad for a 12 year old CPU.

So I don't really know what you mean. Newer CPU's and GPU's have very high power consumption, though. That's why I think Apple should get more into ”the game”.

They wont be fixed.

All pc games run on direct x. There is no equivalent tech for mac, due to apples control, and there never will be. There is no incentive to invest in mac games either. No one wants to deal with Apple. It doesnt make business sense.

Integrated graphics are still not ad good as discrete.

We Mac users have no config options either.

Basically its a total, soup to nuts disaster scenario for mac folk and gaming. And apple is the culprit. Everyone has moved on.

What do you mean ”due to Apple's control”? Microsoft controls Direct 3D. Apple controls Metal. There doesn't have to be much difference. Also, the graphics API on Playstation is control by Sony, right? Why would it have be so different with Apple controlling Metal?

Yeah, this is a "show me the money" kind of thing. Put up or shut up.

Speaking to a few people off and on in the industry, the perception is still that, regardless of the capabilities of the chip, there's not enough of a market to justify the R&D costs of bringing any game -- port or from the ground up -- to the Mac platform.

Still Feral Interactive has been doing it over the years. ?‍♂️

 

[marty1980]

… For the most part, even Mac users aren’t interested in macOS gaming. For the last several years Mac users have been focused on Windows gaming on their Macs.

The potential is there for this to change. There are people who only play games on Windows because they can’t on Mac.

I fall somewhere in there, but would likely still have a Windows PC for other reasons and exclusives (Xbox on PC).

It makes more sense for me to own a Mac if I could game on it. As it stands, the only thing my Windows machine can’t do is XCode and deployment to Apple’s App stores. The latter being questionable as to why it can’t be done from Windows using other IDEs. It’s not enough to justify the cost of a Mac computer.

On top of this is a more simple problem. I could just buy the cheapest Mac mini and do alright. But the type of work I want to do on it requires more than 16GB of RAM. The mini doesn’t support more than 16GB. I don’t want a laptop. The Mac studio is way to much to pay just for the additional 16GB (32GB total). I’d like a mini with a M1 Pro chip.

I digress… there is potential to expand Apple’s market share. Gaming is a huge market. Apple knows this by way of their games market on iOS. The Mac user audience could be much wider with better hardware, but more importantly, better efforts in convincing developers that Mac is a platform they should natively support.

 

[star-affinity]

It's the API. In the past Apple used OpenGL which was far inferior to Microsoft's DirectX.

Top end graphics cards can set you back a few G's. I've never understood the appeal, really. For that kind of money, I'd get a PlayStation or Xbox and a nice library of games. I ain't a real gamer since I'm not a fan of WASD.? Not a fan of WASD?!? Blasphamy, y'all say.? Burn the heretic.

The thing is also OpenGL games was running better in Windows compared to the Mac – the frame rate didn't go as low in demanding scenes.

Yes, graphics cards cost quite a lot nowadays. I undesrand the appeal, though. Higher frame rates makes you ”get closer to the game” with lower input lag that makes the immersion even stronger. I do think there are many games what are well suited for a console and a game controller, but many other games such as first person shooters, strategy games and real time stragegy games are better enjouyed with a keyboard and mouse in my opinion.

 

[andrewv69]

macs finally have the hardware potential to run real games but until apple steps up to the plate and plays nice with developers to provide support, it won't happen beyond the few studios that decide it's worth their time. for some reason apple thinks their users are too good for pc video games and doesn't show more support for it, which is a shame since it would be a great marketing point for them. "mac beats pc at pc games" type of graphs.

in the meantime mac users like me that want to play pc games are relegated to intel macs or have to use 2 computers- a pc for games and a mac for everything else. imo by putting off proper pc gaming support they're contributing slightly to pc sales lol.

 

[Celtic Warrior]

With the M1's amazing GPUs, every Mac sold today can double as a gaming console, in terms of graphics performance but also in the uniformity of the hardware available to the software developer. All that's needed now is the games.

I don't think it can double the performance. M1 gaming performance is nowhere near PS5 and Xbox Series X. I even doubt it can even match with PS4 Pro or Xbox one X. It can be further improved upon with upcoming M1 chips in the future but it is not a desirable device for gaming

 

[Celtic Warrior]

Im not trying to game on a laptop. If I go the computer route I want a 3090 water cooled for 4k and ray tracing.

Exactly

 

[Bustycat]

Look at how much Microsoft has spent on gaming... I have no hope when Apple just contributed below 1% comparing to the total from Microsoft.

 

[BootsWalking]

I don't think it can double the performance. M1 gaming performance is nowhere near PS5 and Xbox Series X. I even doubt it can even match with PS4 Pro or Xbox one X. It can be further improved upon with upcoming M1 chips in the future but it is not a desirable device for gaming

I was thinking more along the lines of a Nintendo. I don't think people would migrate to Apple for AAA games - there are too many alternativeoptions.

 

[MysticCow]

online games without having to pay monthly.

I pay $0.00 USD to play Star Trek Online on my XBox. Same with other freemium type MMOs there.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Hardware power and capabilities are almost never the issue here.

Also, amazing and powerful hardware ≠ great games

(See: Nintendo)

 

[Luposian]

Exactly. They are serious about Apple TV+ being a success because they put a lot of money into producing original tv shows and movies. They need to show the same level of commitment to gaming if they want it to succeed on the Mac. Bungie was a Mac developer originally and Marathon was a AAA game for its time developed only for the Mac. So, it has been done before.

Yeah, but now Bungie is owned by Sony... or in joint venture or something. Of course, as with all the old gaming companies we used to love (EA, Activision, Bungie, etc.), they end up outgrowing their youthful "we care" stage and become uncaring behemoths... or, in the case of Bungie, get bought up by one of those uncaring behemoths and become a slave to their wishes! I'd love to see a modern remake of Marathon, with a 3rd person perspective option (I can't play FPS, they make me motion sick; my favorite was Half-Life and it was hard to play, without getting so sick, I wanted to throw my entire computer out the window! But it was WORTH it! )

 

[Kierkegaarden]

Working with Feral (on a mod project on one of their games) has been amazing. They care about bringing the best possible experience to the users and were really helpful in adding additional features for us so that we could realise our own vision. Compare that to a company like Creative Assembly which didn't really care at all about supporting their moding scene it's been a night and day experience.

They really come across this way — putting in their best to create a great experience.

 

[baryon]

Really? Mac gaming has never been worse. In fact you can go back in time to literally any year and see that Macs had more games than now (and I don't mean niche Mac-only games that never go beyond a tech-demo on stage to convince you how Mac gaming is flourishing, but I mean famous cross-platform games). Now with M1 Macs you can't even run BootCamp anymore. And even the very few games that do run on Mac no longer run because many are 32 bit. So while in the past I've been able to sort of play games one way or the other, for the very first time there are zero games that I can play that I'd actually want to play. And since work is more important than play, and since I can only afford one computer, I guess gaming is just a thing of the past for me. Maybe one day, in some utopistic future, you'll be able to switch between Windows and Mac on the same computer. Oh wait no that used to be possible.

Apple will prioritize any other form of entertainment and just go on pretending that gaming is not a thing. Like imagine if you couldn't watch movies on your Mac, or if there was no way to listen to music and Apple just never talked about it, like it's some kind of taboo. For gaming, it's like that.

 

[theorist9]

Too bad the MR interviewer didn't ask Feral these questions:

1) You said that Metal is a big improvement over Open GL, which fell well short of DirectX in performance and features. How does Metal compare to DirectX in those areas? Are there places where it still falls short? Are there places were Metal is superior? And do you see Metal as continuing to improve?

2) What are the implications of TBDR in writing games for the Mac?

 

[sunny5]

Most people still misunderstood about Mac gaming's future. Mac is already doomed for gaming. Dont expect too much about it especially since the market share for gaming on Mac is extremely low.

 

[currocj]

The performance just isn't there yet, and asking devs to code for oddball CPUs and graphics APIs doesn't help. Games are written for consoles then ported for the most part, that means X86 and Direct X on the Series X side, and X86 and GNM (an Open GL derivative) on PS5. PC then gets a port of the Series X codebase with added support for DLSS and RT.

None of that works on Macs.

Rosetta for X86/DirectX/GNM/OpenGL/DLSS/RT?