Finally, some good news on gay marriage

[Lyle]

As for murder, that's far worse than gay sex...

I am mildly curious about how you (as a self-described Christian) came to this conclusion. I'm not criticizing you; as I said in an earlier post, there are a lot of Christians who have this mental model of some sins being worse than others, and you're entitled to those beliefs.

 

[Macaddicttt]

I am mildly curious about how you (as a self-described Christian) came to this conclusion. I'm not criticizing you; as I said in an earlier post, there are a lot of Christians who have this mental model of some sins being worse than others, and you're entitled to those beliefs.

Human life is sacred and the ultimate gift from God. Therefore, taking it is wrong. Gay sex is sexual gratification, merely caused by a weak will. It causes no harm to anyone (but oneself) and does not destroy life.

 

[leekohler]

I am mildly curious about how you (as a self-described Christian) came to this conclusion. I'm not criticizing you; as I said in an earlier post, there are a lot of Christians who have this mental model of some sins being worse than others, and you're entitled to those beliefs.

Oh Macaddicttt, you're in trouble now!

 

[0098386]

The Catholic church can have whatever rules it wants, if you don't want to agree to those rules you don't have too, either go to church and not be bothered by it or find another religion. A religion is not to change its beliefs because some people say it should.

amen brother

if you dont like the rules you go elsewhere. hell if you want to change the fundamental rules of a religion then you might as well just switch all together, instead of changing a billion peoples ideas you can just change your own. which when i last checked was much easier.

similarly related, there was this story about this woman who had this weird looking face but downright refused surgery just on the grounds that "its not me who has to change, its everyone else"... umm... try changing 6+ billion peoples minds

 

[leekohler]

amen brother

if you dont like the rules you go elsewhere. hell if you want to change the fundamental rules of a religion then you might as well just switch all together, instead of changing a billion peoples ideas you can just change your own. which when i last checked was much easier.

First of all- no one here cares what any Church says or does. You are correct, they can do what they want- just as the UCC has done what it wants.

similarly related, there was this story about this woman who had this weird looking face but downright refused surgery just on the grounds that "its not me who has to change, its everyone else"... umm... try changing 6+ billion peoples minds

This is a terrible example and makes you look really shallow.

 

[Lyle]

Oh Macaddicttt, you're in trouble now!

No, no, I'm not looking to pick a fight.

A lot of the comments in this thread come from people who aren't Christian, and don't claim to be. That's their choice, of course, but I don't feel it's productive for me to try and argue with them about why they're so wrong and I'm so right. It's a very personal decision that people have to make on their own.

On the other hand, when someone identifies themselves as a Christian I take a little more interest; not because I'm anxious to find some flaw in what they're saying, but just because I'm sincerely interested in hearing about how different Christians arrive at their particular interpretations of the Bible and Jesus' teachings. I certainly don't claim that my personal understanding is the only correct one; it has certainly changed over the years.

 

[leekohler]

No, no, I'm not looking to pick a fight.

A lot of the comments in this thread come from people who aren't Christian, and don't claim to be. That's their choice, of course, but I don't feel it's productive for me to try and argue with them about why they're so wrong and I'm so right. It's a very personal decision that people have to make on their own.

On the other hand, when someone identifies themselves as a Christian I take a little more interest; not because I'm anxious to find some flaw in what they're saying, but just because I'm sincerely interested in hearing about how different Christians arrive at their particular interpretations of the Bible and Jesus' teachings. I certainly don't claim that my personal understanding is the only correct one; it has certainly changed over the years.

Oh- I know. I was just joking. Macaddicttt's a good guy-we've sparred before.

 

[Kushiro]

Since it seems that the major problem is the term 'marriage' in a legal context and in a religious context, why not eliminate marriage as a legal construct? All couples, straight and gay, can enter into a legal union. But you can only get 'married' in a church. Seems like the easiest and the fairest solution to me, but.....

EDIT: at least, it would eliminate a 'separate-but-equal' legal situation, while alowing those who seem the most concerned with the term 'marriage' to save some face.

 

[mpw]

...And why make up such a ridiculous situation? Now you're just getting silly. I'm pretty sure you know what I meant.

I used a ridiculous situation because it's sometimes easier to get a message across than with the more mundane day-to-day of life stories.

I suspect this is how the story in the Bible came about water to wine feeding the 5,000 etc. trouble is too many people have 'faith' that these ridiculous stories have been recorded verbatim which seems to give the lead character special powers he didn't really have. These perceived special power or attributes caught the imagination of some weak minded people and BAM they had themselves a bona-fide deity. The rest is history.

Strip God/Jesus away from Christianity and you might have a decent framework for a tolerant society that could be flexible and based on common sense, equality and fair-play. God give the weak something easy to cling to so they needn't think for themselves.

Do I know what you mean? You don't think being gay is acceptable for some reason, why that is I can't fathom.

 

[Macaddicttt]

Do I know what you mean? You don't being gay is acceptable for some reason why that is I can't fathom.

I'm sorry, but that doesn't make grammatical sense. Could you please try again?

 

[PaRaGoNViCtiM]

Human life is sacred and the ultimate gift from God. Therefore, taking it is wrong. Gay sex is sexual gratification, merely caused by a weak will. It causes no harm to anyone (but oneself) and does not destroy life.

Okay, this is going too far now. You just offended me! Someone better HOLD ME BACK!!!!

 

[restless~native]

Since it seems that the major problem is the term 'marriage' in a legal context and in a religious context, why not eliminate marriage as a legal construct? All couples, straight and gay, can enter into a legal union. But you can only get 'married' in a church. Seems like the easiest and the fairest solution to me, but.....

EDIT: at least, it would eliminate a 'separate-but-equal' legal situation, while alowing those who seem the most concerned with the term 'marriage' to save some face.

Kushiro, stop making sense!!

 

[leekohler]

Okay, this is going too far now. You just offended me! Someone better HOLD ME BACK!!!!

Ok! Now, now boys! Calm down. But I do hear what you're saying. I certainly don't think gay sex is damaging to oneself, especially in a committed relationship. And to be fair, Macaddicttt was only expressing his opinion in order to clarify his position, even though we disagree.

 

[leekohler]

Since it seems that the major problem is the term 'marriage' in a legal context and in a religious context, why not eliminate marriage as a legal construct? All couples, straight and gay, can enter into a legal union. But you can only get 'married' in a church. Seems like the easiest and the fairest solution to me, but.....

EDIT: at least, it would eliminate a 'separate-but-equal' legal situation, while alowing those who seem the most concerned with the term 'marriage' to save some face.

Unfortunately, I don't see the powers-that-be permitting that to happen.

 

[huck500]

Yeah, that was me. I stepped in to defend Christianity and got drawn in again...

So it's OK to be gay, but not to have gay sex. Betraying and dealing vast emotional damage to a partner is morally equivalent to having a fulfilling, loving moment of intimacy with a partner...

Tell you what, I think it's ok to be a Christian, but it's morally repugnant to me that you try to influence or convert others to your religion or point of view. That's not based on what you typed entirely, I'm thinking of the horrible things that have been done by Christians to non-Christians in the name of redemption throughout history.

It's ok to be openly Christian, but don't expect any protection from the state, no more tax breaks for your church, no constitutional protection of your speech, no more money for your "faith-based initiatives." I find your lifestyle immoral, so you don't deserve any of that.

If you think I'm being facetious to make a point, you're wrong.

The point of religion:

Ben Franklin to Thomas Paine:

You yourself may find it easy to live a virtuous life, without the assistance afforded by religion; you having a clear perception of the advantages of virtue, and the disadvantages of vice, and possessing a strength of resolution sufficient to enable you to resist common temptations. But think how great a portion of mankind consists of weak and ignorant men and women, and of inexperienced, inconsiderate youth of both sexes, who have need of the motives of religion to restrain them from vice, to support their virtue, and retain them in the practice of it till it becomes habitual, which is the great point for its security.

Here's the complete letter...

Paine went on to publish "The Age of Reason" against Franklin's advice, and here is a statement from the beginning that sums up my feelings about religion, and why the current climate in the US is disturbing to me. Paine was roundly criticized for this work, and basically lost all the respect he had gained for building support for the revolution through his writings.

All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.

Here's the complete text...

 

[Macaddicttt]

So it's OK to be gay, but not to have gay sex. Betraying and dealing vast emotional damage to a partner is morally equivalent to having a fulfilling, loving moment of intimacy with a partner...

Tell you what, I think it's ok to be a Christian, but it's morally repugnant to me that you try to influence or convert others to your religion or point of view. That's not based on what you typed entirely, I'm thinking of the horrible things that have been done by Christians to non-Christians in the name of redemption throughout history.

It's ok to be openly Christian, but don't expect any protection from the state, no more tax breaks for your church, no constitutional protection of your speech, no more money for your "faith-based initiatives." I find your lifestyle immoral, so you don't deserve any of that.

If you think I'm being facetious to make a point, you're wrong.

The point of religion:



Here's the complete letter...

Paine went on to publish "The Age of Reason" against Franklin's advice, and here is a statement from the beginning that sums up my feelings about religion, and why the current climate in the US is disturbing to me. Paine was roundly criticized for this work, and basically lost all the respect he had gained for building support for the revolution through his writings.



Here's the complete text...

I don't understand the point of this post. It has nothing to do with anything. It has nothing to do with what I'm saying. I assume you were trying to turn the situation around, replacing "gay" with "Christian."

Where did I say that gays should be legally repressed, that their free speech should be taken away, and they should not receive the legal benefits of marriage? I'm all for legalizing gay marriage. It doesn't affect me, so why should I care?

And as for quoting Paine and Franklin: huh? What do I care what Paine and Franklin said? Where did I say that I worship all the Founding Fathers and must do what they say?

I'm all for gay marriage, even though I think gay sex is wrong. I can't push my views on other people. That's silly. I was merely answering people's questions as to why I believe what I believe and defending the Church against such comments as, "Christianity only causes hate and all Christians are fundamentalist, Bible-beating, ignorant conservatives.

 

[ja0912]

Since it seems that the major problem is the term 'marriage' in a legal context and in a religious context, why not eliminate marriage as a legal construct? All couples, straight and gay, can enter into a legal union. But you can only get 'married' in a church. Seems like the easiest and the fairest solution to me, but.....

EDIT: at least, it would eliminate a 'separate-but-equal' legal situation, while alowing those who seem the most concerned with the term 'marriage' to save some face.

It would be great great thing, no doubt.

 

[Macaddicttt]

Okay, this is going too far now. You just offended me! Someone better HOLD ME BACK!!!!

Umm...okay...

I'm assuming the "weak will" part got you. Want me to list other sins that are caused by the same thing so that you won't feel like I'm singling you out?

Extramarital sex
Masturbation
Loosing your temper
Being mean to someone else

Must I go on? Why do gays insist on being insulted by everything anyone say? I'm not singling gays out, you are. I understand you have to be on the defensive a lot, but this is ridiculous. You're really creating a bad stereotype for gays for me here.

 

[Macaddicttt]

Ok! Now, now boys! Calm down. But I do hear what you're saying. I certainly don't think gay sex is damaging to oneself, especially in a committed relationship. And to be fair, Macaddicttt was only expressing his opinion in order to clarify his position, even though we disagree.

Thank you leeohler. I know you'll disagree with me on this, but I believe that since gay sex is morally wrong, it doesn't exactly help you on the whole heaven/hell thing (not that it automatically condemns you either). I'm just giving what I believe. I'm not forcing you to believe it. I'm not using the law to repress you.

 

[huck500]

My post has nothing to do with anything? I argued directly against one of your statements...do I need to explicitly state that I think your thinking is flawed? OK.

So it's OK to be gay, but not to have gay sex. Betraying and dealing vast emotional damage to a partner is morally equivalent to having a fulfilling, loving moment of intimacy with a partner...I think that's nonsensical and wrong.

The second part of the post was meant to apply the golden rule to the typical conservative view that gay marriage should be outlawed in the constitution... now that you post this, though, I'm not sure where you stand:

I'm all for gay marriage, even though I think gay sex is wrong.

I'll be more explicit here, too: What does this mean? That gays should be allowed to marry but they shouldn't have sex once they do? That's ridiculous.

The third part was meant to give people something interesting to read.

Please note that I said nothing about hate.

 

[angelneo]

Thank you leeohler. I know you'll disagree with me on this, but I believe that since gay sex is morally wrong, it doesn't exactly help you on the whole heaven/hell thing (not that it automatically condemns you either). I'm just giving what I believe. I'm not forcing you to believe it. I'm not using the law to repress you.

Even though we have different views and we still stand by it, it's great having this debate/conversation with you. At least I had fun. I am just glad this did not spiral down to mindless arguments and name-calling.

 

[Macaddicttt]

I'll be more explicit here, too: What does this mean? That gays should be allowed to marry but they shouldn't have sex once they do? That's ridiculous.

It means, "I think you're in the wrong, but I'm not gonna stop you." I feel the same way about a lot of things. I think extramarital sex is wrong, but I don't think it should be against the law. I think get ridiculously drunk is wrong, but I don't think it should be against the law. I think yelling at your mother is wrong, but I don't think it should be against the law. You believe what you want to believe, and I'll believe what I want to believe, okay?

Please note that I said nothing about hate.

I didn't mean to say you said anything about hate, I was just stating the reason why I stepped in in the first place.

 

[huck500]

It means, "I think you're in the wrong, but I'm not gonna stop you." I feel the same way about a lot of things. I think extramarital sex is wrong, but I don't think it should be against the law. I think get ridiculously drunk is wrong, but I don't think it should be against the law. I think yelling at your mother is wrong, but I don't think it should be against the law. You believe what you want to believe, and I'll believe what I want to believe, okay?

Cool. The way it should be.

edit: On the band - not my cup of tea, but congrats on getting it out there.

 

[Macaddicttt]

Cool. The way it should be.

edit: On the band - not my cup of tea, but congrats on getting it out there.

Thanks. I got it distributed by this company called The Orchard, and today I got a statement telling me where it was downloaded. Apparently it was downloaded not only in the US, but also in the UK and Canada through iTunes and Napster UK and Canada. I thought that was very cool, and also very unexpected.

 

[Macaddicttt]

Even though we have different views and we still stand by it, it's great having this debate/conversation with you. At least I had fun. I am just glad this did not spiral down to mindless arguments and name-calling.

I really like having these discussions, too. I hate it when Christians are portrayed as Bible-beating, ignorant fundamentalists, and I like putting a better face on Christians (well, some). I also like getting more people's opinions on things like this since I like to see things from all different sorts of points of view.