All iPads Find my iPad not considered "sufficient evidence" for search warrant

[oneMadRssn]

Seems silly, with no warrant the cops can still ask for consent to come in. Also, I believe even if the GPS location isn't totally accurate, if it corroborated with some other piece of evidence, that would be sufficient.

Even though I generally would not trust the police, out of a sign of good faith, if they were being calm and polite, I would consent to a cursory visual only (no touching) inspection of my apartment not to exceed 5 minutes of time.

However, if there is any hint of tension, stress, dominance, hyperactivity, or any kind of type-a dominant behavior during the first minute of conversation at the door, I would not consent.

 

[tdale]

Seems silly, with no warrant the cops can still ask for consent to come in. Also, I believe even if the GPS location isn't totally accurate, if it corroborated with some other piece of evidence, that would be sufficient.

Even though I generally would not trust the police, out of a sign of good faith, if they were being calm and polite, I would consent to a cursory visual only (no touching) inspection of my apartment not to exceed 5 minutes of time.

However, if there is any hint of tension, stress, dominance, hyperactivity, or any kind of type-a dominant behavior during the first minute of conversation at the door, I would not consent.

IIRC this discussion was based on having a warrant. The issue of getting warrant is based on if the accuracy is sufficient, and in this threads example I raised, if it was in one house, but a need to check the other two next door. A warrant should cover that based on in being accurate, but not house accurate.

Oddly, I just tested my own. I am on my rMBP, iPad Air is 2 metres to my right, towards the street, 6 Plus next to me. The 6 Plus shows at my two doors away neighbour. The rMBP just on my next door neighbours on my side, and the iPad Air just on my property. But I just tried again while typing this, now my 6 Plus is right on the button, rMBP just outside my window behind me, the iPad on the other side of that next door neighbours. So, that blows away my next theory, the Police use the same model phone and hone in on it, given that the tech used is identical. The fail, is that the location varies even when the devices have not moved. I'd assume the Police would test this, and if they see what I see, its a hard call to push for a warrant. Also, a mate on another local forum moved house, his Find My Phone was still at his old house, another fail.

My take on this still stands, but now being aware of the lack of accuracy and more so, the variability over just a few minutes, and the unreliability of the device being in the same town, a warrant couldn't be sought. Here, its unlikely that warrants get issue for this, but phones have been found, accuracy is clearly the issue. GPS is accurate to inches, literally, but the US military who created it, had that accuracy removed from consumer use. perhaps its time that was revisited. If it was widely known that it is accurate, the a warrant would be used, phone thefts would slow markedly. That helps he public and the police

 

[617aircav]

Whats up with you? Do you really think putting words in my mouth will give you the upper hand in what is clearly a need to be the man, be correct?? LOL.



Light flutter search, checking the cookie jars according to me.???



Stick to your guns, as you are always right, cos you need to be it seems. But making up comments and stating that they are mine, is quite childish. Explains it all, try to have a nice day

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Ok, they have a warrant, then what?



Just tell them its not there, in fact tell any crim to tell the judge, its not there for whatever crime they are alleged, so the case will be dismissed.



Its clear that in some countries the police/legal system cannot be trusted, well thats not the case everywhere

A warrant will not be given in this case because the findmyiphone location is not considered accurate. There has to be more supporting evidence and not just findmyiphone.

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Whats up with you? Do you really think putting words in my mouth will give you the upper hand in what is clearly a need to be the man, be correct?? LOL.



Light flutter search, checking the cookie jars according to me.???



Stick to your guns, as you are always right, cos you need to be it seems. But making up comments and stating that they are mine, is quite childish. Explains it all, try to have a nice day

----------





Ok, they have a warrant, then what?



Just tell them its not there, in fact tell any crim to tell the judge, its not there for whatever crime they are alleged, so the case will be dismissed.



Its clear that in some countries the police/legal system cannot be trusted, well thats not the case everywhere

Then they can formally charge me then. I know how inaccurate findmyiphone is.

 

[oneMadRssn]

IIRC this discussion was based on having a warrant. The issue of getting warrant is based on if the accuracy is sufficient, and in this threads example I raised, if it was in one house, but a need to check the other two next door. A warrant should cover that based on in being accurate, but not house accurate.

Oddly, I just tested my own. I am on my rMBP, iPad Air is 2 metres to my right, towards the street, 6 Plus next to me. The 6 Plus shows at my two doors away neighbour. The rMBP just on my next door neighbours on my side, and the iPad Air just on my property. But I just tried again while typing this, now my 6 Plus is right on the button, rMBP just outside my window behind me, the iPad on the other side of that next door neighbours. So, that blows away my next theory, the Police use the same model phone and hone in on it, given that the tech used is identical. The fail, is that the location varies even when the devices have not moved. I'd assume the Police would test this, and if they see what I see, its a hard call to push for a warrant. Also, a mate on another local forum moved house, his Find My Phone was still at his old house, another fail.

My take on this still stands, but now being aware of the lack of accuracy and more so, the variability over just a few minutes, and the unreliability of the device being in the same town, a warrant couldn't be sought. Here, its unlikely that warrants get issue for this, but phones have been found, accuracy is clearly the issue. GPS is accurate to inches, literally, but the US military who created it, had that accuracy removed from consumer use. perhaps its time that was revisited. If it was widely known that it is accurate, the a warrant would be used, phone thefts would slow markedly. That helps he public and the police

There is far more that a judge / magistrate considers when issuing a warrant. The standard is probable cause. Accuracy of the findmyiphone is just one of many factors.

The nature of the crime is another factor. For example, if a child is kidnapped by someone known to be violent towards children and the child has an iphone in their back pocket, the findmyiphone gps data would surely be sufficient to not only issue a warrant, but even maybe conduct a warrantless search based on exigent circumstances. If the crime is petty theft---meh.

Corroborating evidence is another factor. For example, if findmyiphone narrows it down to a block of 3 condos, and when the police speak to the neighbors they make statements that the guy in condo #3 is a sketchball and has stolen stuff from the laundry room before, that would probably be enough to support a warrant. There is similar caselaw on this - approximate location plus witness testimony of prior crime is enough for probable cause to search on the street. Maybe it would also be enough to enter a home... maybe. Another example is if the police look through a window into the condo (which they can do without a warrant) and see an iphone, that might be enough to corroborate.

There are more factors than just accuracy of the gps.

 

[laudern]

IIRC

Being a new Zealander you no doubt love the TV show Flight of The Conchords (as do I). But your resentment towards me will grow when you know my nationality. A quote frothe show goes something like, "New Zealand's says, where's the car? While Australian's say, where's the car?"

 

[tdale]

Being a new Zealander you no doubt love the TV show Flight of The Conchords (as do I). But your resentment towards me will grow when you know my nationality. A quote frothe show goes something like, "New Zealand's says, where's the car? While Australian's say, where's the car?"

You've lost me, let me check past posts! While I watch Crusaders vs Rebels.

Did you make a typo as they are both the same

"New Zealand's says, where's the car? While Australian's say, where's the car?"

 

[tdale]

Being a new Zealander you no doubt love the TV show Flight of The Conchords (as do I). But your resentment towards me will grow when you know my nationality. A quote frothe show goes something like, "New Zealand's says, where's the car? While Australian's say, where's the car?"

OK I am updated, right. We are discussing police action on a warranted search for an iPad in 3 homes, based on the Find My Phone app. The way I took this is that you are in some other country, I am in NZ. Thats fine. I actually assumed probably the US, but thats not relevant. My issue, is that my take is based on where I live, contacts I have had with Police (I know a few cops and a few crims), and how the Police act here. Your take was that the Police are ***** and will rule over you, etc etc as you stated, thats ok. If its like that where you are, ok, its not like that here. But, when you make up words that I didn't make in order to increase your case, yes that isn't cool. And you did that over and over. No, I don't resent you, but a discussion is a discussion. You can see my location, I cannot see yours, so say you are wherever in the world, you could consider, hey, maybe in NZ its not like this. Now, I am wondering if you are in fact in NZ! If so, expand on your experiences. If I was as into drugs, guns, blah blah, and known, maybe not so cool, but that would off course be obvious.

No, I find the Conchords not funny. The Americans do, they love them (Ive been there 7 or 8 times for a month at a time)

So are you from Oz? If so, I dunno why that would make me resent you even more, but explain

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Being a new Zealander you no doubt love the TV show Flight of The Conchords (as do I). But your resentment towards me will grow when you know my nationality. A quote frothe show goes something like, "New Zealand's says, where's the car? While Australian's say, where's the car?"

And explain

"A quote frothe show goes something like, "New Zealand's says, where's the car? While Australian's say, where's the car

 

[phpmaven]

I think its a bit poor. If the stolen device showed as No.22, it may be on 20, or 24. Its not like a raid, ask 22 that you wish to search for it, then 20 and 24. A search warrant wont be an issue for an honest person who is advised it may be here or next door. The job for Police is to locate stolen goods, this functions gives them 99% accuracy, that is good enough. Its strange when the Police know its in 20,22,24, but cannot do anything. Now what of it was a $200,000 car? They would KNOW its in one of the 3 garages, do you expect they will walk away?

The Police arrived at my home, said a stolen iPhone has been traced down to one of these three houses, and asked if they can search, I'd say go for it. If they had a search warrant, I'd be fine with that as I am not being accused, I am being searched, and as I didn't steal it, no problem

Seriously? You'd be OK with the police turning your house upside down and trashing the place searching for stolen property?

 

[tdale]

Seriously? You'd be OK with the police turning your house upside down and trashing the place searching for stolen property?

Another one. Pray tell, where did I say that the Police will trash my place, and I am happy with that. If that's how Police treat every warrant search where you live, fine, the whole world isn't the US

 

[gnasher729]

GPS is accurate to inches, literally, but the US military who created it, had that accuracy removed from consumer use. perhaps its time that was revisited.

If your phone is indoors, it is likely that it doesn't receive GPS at all, but the location it responds is based on detecting WiFi routers nearby.

A standalone GPS is accurate within a few meters. There's a trick to improve accuracy: A lot of the inaccuracies are the same for all GPSes in some area, like inaccuracies in the satellite position and clocks, changes of speed of the signal due to weather conditions. So if you have a GPS at a fixed location, and it thinks its seven feet north north west of its true position, then another GPS fifty feet away will tend to have the same error. And if you record positions over an hour and average, then you can come close. Probably not with an iPhone, but with a specialised device like a Garmin.

 

[Night Spring]

Another one. Pray tell, where did I say that the Police will trash my place, and I am happy with that. If that's how Police treat every warrant search where you live, fine, the whole world isn't the US

It doesn't matter where you are in the world. I'm having a hard time imagining how the police could effectively search a house for something as small as an iPhone without turning the place upside down.

I mean, just look around your house. Almost every object in it is big enough to conceal an iPhone behind or beneath it. In order to conduct an effective search, EVERYTHING in the house would have to be moved.

If the police carefully moved everything, looked under / behind them, and put things back where they belonged, I'm thinking with the man-hours such a search would take, you could easily just buy an iPhone or two.

 

[tdale]

It doesn't matter where you are in the world. I'm having a hard time imagining how the police could effectively search a house for something as small as an iPhone without turning the place upside down.

I mean, just look around your house. Almost every object in it is big enough to conceal an iPhone behind or beneath it. In order to conduct an effective search, EVERYTHING in the house would have to be moved.

If the police carefully moved everything, looked under / behind them, and put things back where they belonged, I'm thinking with the man-hours such a search would take, you could easily just buy an iPhone or two.

I am in my living room watching Cricket World Cup, I look around. To check everywhere in this room wont mean trashing the place, or everything upside down. Bedrooms, same, except for the drawers. what was tidy in them will no doubt be put back quickly and not try, but for everything in my home to be trashed, well thats over the top here. If I was a drug dealer, multiple search history, and that would well be different. It seems the police have no respect at all for the general public it seems. Not like that here, unless you are a recidivist crim I'd suspect

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If your phone is indoors, it is likely that it doesn't receive GPS at all, but the location it responds is based on detecting WiFi routers nearby.

A standalone GPS is accurate within a few meters. There's a trick to improve accuracy: A lot of the inaccuracies are the same for all GPSes in some area, like inaccuracies in the satellite position and clocks, changes of speed of the signal due to weather conditions. So if you have a GPS at a fixed location, and it thinks its seven feet north north west of its true position, then another GPS fifty feet away will tend to have the same error. And if you record positions over an hour and average, then you can come close. Probably not with an iPhone, but with a specialised device like a Garmin.

Makes a lot of sense.

 

[Night Spring]

I am in my living room watching Cricket World Cup, I look around. To check everywhere in this room wont mean trashing the place, or everything upside down. Bedrooms, same, except for the drawers. what was tidy in them will no doubt be put back quickly and not try, but for everything in my home to be trashed, well thats over the top here.

I think you are forgetting that they'd need to move the TV, the sofa, the bed, and the drawer. If you have a bookcase full of books, then all the books will have to come out, and the bookcases shifted so they can check behind them. Oh, and we haven't even started on the kitchen or the bathrooms.

Your things might not get trashed, but it's going to take you days to put everything back where they were.

 

[phpmaven]

Another one. Pray tell, where did I say that the Police will trash my place, and I am happy with that. If that's how Police treat every warrant search where you live, fine, the whole world isn't the US

So in New Zealand the police with search warrants just come in and say "right mate, got any stolen property? No, ok, sorry to have bothered you. Have a nice day?

 

[tdale]

So in New Zealand the police with search warrants just come in and say "right mate, got any stolen property? No, ok, sorry to have bothered you. Have a nice day?

If you cannot comment with a degree of maturity, best not to bother, mate.

 

[KiwiAdventure]

Nonsense. Read my previous post carefully.

You can also go to the neighbourhood where the iPhone is with a camera, observe who is leaving their homes, and when the thief leaves their home with the iPhone and drives away, Find my iPhone will tell you, you can film the car, and get the evidence needed.

Correct, as well you can camp outside with your mates. The Police are being dicks about this warrant. They can accompany you to the front door and you can ask for your iPad back showing that it is at this property.

 

[phpmaven]

If you cannot comment with a degree of maturity, best not to bother, mate.

Or maybe you need to develop a sense of humor.

Care to describe how searches are conducted there, and why you would have absolutely no problem with having your home searched?

 

[Mw0103]

There is far more that a judge / magistrate considers when issuing a warrant. The standard is probable cause. Accuracy of the findmyiphone is just one of many factors.

The nature of the crime is another factor. For example, if a child is kidnapped by someone known to be violent towards children and the child has an iphone in their back pocket, the findmyiphone gps data would surely be sufficient to not only issue a warrant, but even maybe conduct a warrantless search based on exigent circumstances. If the crime is petty theft---meh.

Corroborating evidence is another factor. For example, if findmyiphone narrows it down to a block of 3 condos, and when the police speak to the neighbors they make statements that the guy in condo #3 is a sketchball and has stolen stuff from the laundry room before, that would probably be enough to support a warrant. There is similar caselaw on this - approximate location plus witness testimony of prior crime is enough for probable cause to search on the street. Maybe it would also be enough to enter a home... maybe. Another example is if the police look through a window into the condo (which they can do without a warrant) and see an iphone, that might be enough to corroborate.

There are more factors than just accuracy of the gps.

This is much closer to US criminal procedure law than most other posts one runs across on this site, but there are a couple of additional points to consider (and I realize that the OP was about New Zealand--but law of other countries can be informative to these types of discussions). 1) case law on searches on the street may be somewhat persuasive, but a person's home is given much more protection than their pockets when they are out in public. 2) the police can only look in your windows without a warrant or consent if they can do so from outside the "curtilage," which is a reasonable zone around the structure. Sitting on the street and using binoculars = ok. Standing next to the window and peeking in = not ok. Both points are tied to the reasonable expectation of privacy, which is much greater inside one's home. There are, of course, a number of exceptions like hot pursuit from the scene of a crime, where the police can follow and enter without a warrant.

But to reiterate, you are exactly right that the issue is what additional info is needed to add to Find My iPhone data to be probable cause supporting issuance of a warrant. Reliability is a big component (which is likely why find my iPhone data is not enough). Knowledge that, more likely than not, a crime has been committed is another factor (did the owner really just misplace the iPhone and someone picked it up? If so, it's still rightfully the owner's--meaning they have a right to get it back through the civil law process--but no crime has occurred). If the owner knows the person who stole the device and has find my iPhone data showing a location near the theif's known address; that's probably enough for a warrant (the police and the judge have evidence from the owner from which they can conclude that more likely than not the crime of theft has occurred and know where evidence of the crime may be located, which equals probable cause). Hard to say if the word of a random neighbor that someone is "sketchy" is enough. It depends on the reliability of the information.

This is just for discussion purposes. Not intended as legal advice. If you are looking for legal advice, please consult an attorney.

 

[oneMadRssn]

This is much closer to US criminal procedure law than most other posts one runs across on this site, but there are a couple of additional points to consider (and I realize that the OP was about New Zealand--but law of other countries can be informative to these types of discussions). 1) case law on searches on the street may be somewhat persuasive, but a person's home is given much more protection than their pockets when they are out in public. 2) the police can only look in your windows without a warrant or consent if they can do so from outside the "curtilage," which is a reasonable zone around the structure. Sitting on the street and using binoculars = ok. Standing next to the window and peeking in = not ok. Both points are tied to the reasonable expectation of privacy, which is much greater inside one's home. There are, of course, a number of exceptions like hot pursuit from the scene of a crime, where the police can follow and enter without a warrant.

But to reiterate, you are exactly right that the issue is what additional info is needed to add to Find My iPhone data to be probable cause supporting issuance of a warrant. Reliability is a big component (which is likely why find my iPhone data is not enough). Knowledge that, more likely than not, a crime has been committed is another factor (did the owner really just misplace the iPhone and someone picked it up? If so, it's still rightfully the owner's--meaning they have a right to get it back through the civil law process--but no crime has occurred). If the owner knows the person who stole the device and has find my iPhone data showing a location near the theif's known address; that's probably enough for a warrant (the police and the judge have evidence from the owner from which they can conclude that more likely than not the crime of theft has occurred and know where evidence of the crime may be located, which equals probable cause). Hard to say if the word of a random neighbor that someone is "sketchy" is enough. It depends on the reliability of the information.

This is just for discussion purposes. Not intended as legal advice. If you are looking for legal advice, please consult an attorney.

You're correct. Regarding the window peering, I was thinking of Minnesota v Carter. However, the defendants there were not in their own home, hence they had no heightened home fourth amendment protection. Jardines is a good recent example that despite all the fourth amendment erosion lately, curtilege is still a protected space.