Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
OK, what about me? I'm an accomplished musician, who's band has 4 of our 6 CD's for sale on iTunes. I do OWN this music, should I not be able to use them as ringtones if I please? Or should I have to pay $2.00 from Apple to be able to use the songs?

I hate to nitpick but it's only a dollar. Buying a song for a ringtone that you don't otherwise want as a song for you collection -- you know you get both the full song and the ringtone for the $2.00, right? -- kind of silly.

But otherwise, yes you should. But this has nothing to with the statutory license acquired by the music buyer and it fitness to also use under fair use as a ringtone. It's the EULA for the iPhone software that likely bars uploading your own ringtones to the phone.

As for the concept of it being your music, you couldn't go into Tower Records -- okay you can't go into Tower Records at all anymore, but you get what I mean -- and find a copy of one of your CDs in the racks and expect them to just give it to you for free since it's your music. Same things applies on iTunes. You have to buy it even though the copyright is yours.
 
Jeez...your getting your knickers in a twist over a simple firmware update...imagine how we feel not even having the iPhone yet? Do you really wonder why people are unlocking it?

It'l come when it comes....until then....just sit back stop whining and wait your turn. :rolleyes:

I really cannot believe the fuss an intelligent fully grown man with kids is making over this...

I can't say I know anyone who works 21hrs a day that has the time or energy to worry about such trivial things..

Sorry if thats rude, but seriously.....
 
I hate to nitpick but it's only a dollar. Buying a song for a ringtone that you don't otherwise want as a song for you collection -- you know you get both the full song and the ringtone for the $2.00, right? -- kind of silly.

But otherwise, yes you should. But this has nothing to with the statutory license acquired by the music buyer and it fitness to also use under fair use as a ringtone. It's the EULA for the iPhone software that likely bars uploading your own ringtones to the phone.

As for the concept of it being your music, you couldn't go into Tower Records -- okay you can't go into Tower Records at all anymore, but you get what I mean -- and find a copy of one of your CDs in the racks and expect them to just give it to you for free since it's your music. Same things applies on iTunes. You have to buy it even though the copyright is yours.

We're not talking about a physical, manufactured product. We're talking about the use of music you already own. It goes beyond just purchasing a CD for a lot of people. I already have the song, and I didn't need to purchase it from Apple. As a matter of fact, I'm ALLOWING them to sell my music, so THEY can profit from it a well. BUT, I still can't use my own music as a ring tone, unless I first buy a full version from them for .99, THEN make it a ring tone for another .99, for a piece I have already spent thousands of dollars creating and recording... Yes, I know I'm in a very small minority, and they will never add an "artists" feature in iTunes.

The point is simply that we shouldn't be forced to pay for something twice. If we're "allowed" to use the song as a ring tone, and we already own the song (buy purchasing the physical CD) then there's no reason we should have to pay for it to be a ring tone. You're not paying for the music at that point, you're paying for the service to do so, and then it becomes a bit unfair, and that's where I feel Ambrosia fills a certain niche. Id rather give them $15, then pay for my music twice, just to hear it when the phone rings.
 
Sanford,

While I respect your point of view, I do find it odd that if you are as busy as you claim to be, you sure have a lot of time to post on this forum. You've posted in 20 different threads in the last 24 hours, and at all hours of the day, 11am, 12 pm, and in the Firmware update thread at 2:04 am (All Times CDT). I guess you really are up 21 hours a day, working quite hard from the looks of a "posted by sanford" search.

lol. Post of the day. Oh wait, I'm too busy to post here.
 
I've earn money from creative work, and if someone bought one of my pieces I wouldn't dream of charging them an additional fee just to use the image, or photo of the piece, as the wallpaper on their computer.

Good, but that is your choice. The end user shouldn't be the one to dictate the terms of transfer.

If you want to give away the rights to your work, that's your business.
 
I don't disagree. I'm more just repeating how it is, certainly not justifying how it is.

We're not talking about a physical, manufactured product. We're talking about the use of music you already own. It goes beyond just purchasing a CD for a lot of people. I already have the song, and I didn't need to purchase it from Apple. As a matter of fact, I'm ALLOWING them to sell my music, so THEY can profit from it a well. BUT, I still can't use my own music as a ring tone, unless I first buy a full version from them for .99, THEN make it a ring tone for another .99, for a piece I have already spent thousands of dollars creating and recording... Yes, I know I'm in a very small minority, and they will never add an "artists" feature in iTunes.

The point is simply that we shouldn't be forced to pay for something twice. If we're "allowed" to use the song as a ring tone, and we already own the song (buy purchasing the physical CD) then there's no reason we should have to pay for it to be a ring tone. You're not paying for the music at that point, you're paying for the service to do so, and then it becomes a bit unfair, and that's where I feel Ambrosia fills a certain niche. Id rather give them $15, then pay for my music twice, just to hear it when the phone rings.
 
lol. Post of the day. Oh wait, I'm too busy to post here.

lampcov and I have already covered this and he was ribbing me, but a lot of you are really so literal you can't get the idea of being being busy working and, say, follow forums posts at the same time?
 
Good, but that is your choice. The end user shouldn't be the one to dictate the terms of transfer.

If you want to give away the rights to your work, that's your business.

Sobe, but it's not his choice in the example he cites. It fair use. He can't charge for it, not if its not created for distribution.
 
First, I wrote, awake and on the go 21 hours a day, not working 21 hours a day. Reading comprehension, a skill they'll cover for you again when you repeat this year. Pay attention next time.

Second, you joined this forum six days ago and today you're comfortable directly insulting a member of this forum for four years? Did they let your tenth-grade class out early today or what?

Go **** yourself.

Sorry if that's rude, but seriously...

p.s. And for the sake of all that is holy, try and at least establish your own personal consistent standard for the number of periods you think are in an ellipsis.

Jeez...your getting your knickers in a twist over a simple firmware update...imagine how we feel not even having the iPhone yet? Do you really wonder why people are unlocking it?

It'l come when it comes....until then....just sit back stop whining and wait your turn. :rolleyes:

I really cannot believe the fuss an intelligent fully grown man with kids is making over this...

I can't say I know anyone who works 21hrs a day that has the time or energy to worry about such trivial things..

Sorry if thats rude, but seriously.....
 
First, I wrote, awake and on the go 21 hours a day, not working 21 hours a day. Reading comprehension, a skill they'll cover for you again when you repeat this year. Pay attention next time.

Second, you joined this forum six days ago and today you're comfortable directly insulting a member of this forum for four years? Did they let your tenth-grade class out early today or what?

Go **** yourself.

Sorry if that's rude, but seriously...

p.s. And for the sake of all that is holy, try and at least establish your own personal consistent standard for the number of periods you think are in an ellipsis.

Clearly I offended you, for which I am sorry. :eek:

I still think that your point -
The only thing I can think of that's holding up the firmware update is Apple trying to break anySIM and/or other unlocks.

- is completely unfounded, based on your own speculation rather than anything more concrete.

My delivery was rude, I accept and apologise for that, but my point was - if this is how upset you feel over the lack of a firmware update, think how upset people who haven't even had a chance to lay their hands on an iPhone must be getting? Therefore is it really any surprise that people create methods to unlock it?

Sorry for calling you -essentially- a "fussing whiner". But I feel your comments are completely disproportionate to mine. I'm not a 10th Grader that lacks the ability to read. And no, I will not go **** myself. I did not directly insult you or your intelligence. In fact, I stated quite the opposite. You know absolutely nothing about me, so please don't insult my intelligence.



p.s I will use as many full stops in an ellipsis as I feel like, this is a web forum, not a grammar test!!
 
MiLK,

And I apologize for my insult to you, as you are reasonable enough to apologize for your flagrantly rude delivery. Just disagree with me, that's fine. But the insult was unfounded, as you know nothing more about me than I know about you.

I think you can probably see that based on your initial delivery, I only responded in kind.

A couple of things though, and you're not the first to kind of miss this, but that's exactly why I used the word "speculation" in the title of this thread. Because no matter how emphatic I might read in the text, I wanted any readers to know up front that I was speculating. Also I don't think you likely read the whole thread, as I've just kind of blown off today, and responded to the thread several times; across the course of those responses I've moderated my initial position.

Oh, I don't deny that I am more or less whining. Ultimately I think what has put me off is the greater and greater tendency for the vendor to run the customer rather than the other way around. I think Apple could and should give a date for the WiFi Store for iPhone release as it is an announced product. I also think that it's their prerogative to try and break hacks to the iPhone, and they should go about it as they see fit but if that endeavor is holding back features for legitimate customers, they are in the wrong. On the other side of the issue, I think some of the hobbyist iPhone hackers should be more conservative about releasing what they do to the iPhone to the general public, which will serve to limit the amount of "hack-break" time Apple has to spend preparing updates. Things like anySIM, Apple has no choice but to try and break that as they have a contractual obligation to AT&T that demands they maintain exclusivity of carrier for a set period.

Anyway, at your second at-bat you seem a much more reasonable person than you did in your initial post. Thanks for reconsidering how you phrased your disagreement with my position.

Clearly I offended you, for which I am sorry. :eek:

I still think that your point -


- is completely unfounded, based on your own speculation rather than anything more concrete.

My delivery was rude, I accept and apologise for that, but my point was - if this is how upset you feel over the lack of a firmware update, think how upset people who haven't even had a chance to lay their hands on an iPhone must be getting? Therefore is it really any surprise that people create methods to unlock it?

Sorry for calling you -essentially- a "fussing whiner". But I feel your comments are completely disproportionate to mine. I'm not a 10th Grader that lacks the ability to read. And no, I will not go **** myself. I did not directly insult you or your intelligence. In fact, I stated quite the opposite. You know absolutely nothing about me, so please don't insult my intelligence.



p.s I will use as many full stops in an ellipsis as I feel like, this is a web forum, not a grammar test!!
 
sanford: and you seem a reasonable good guy too, I'm glad we sorted that out :)

I totally agree I should have also payed more attention to the keywords of "speculation" and "rant" in your topic title!

Having read your response there, I can see where you are coming from a lot better.

Lets just hope a firmware update is imminent, for everyones sake :)
 
Yeah, I don't like screaming arguments, either, if they can be avoided.

I'm starting to think we can define "imminent" as 28th Sept., the last business day that would still fits Jobs's statement on 5th Sept. that the WiFi Music Store for iPhone would be out "later this month". I don't even have my iPhone docked anymore because I'm tired of checking.

sanford: and you seem a reasonable good guy too, I'm glad we sorted that out :)

I totally agree I should have also payed more attention to the keywords of "speculation" and "rant" in your topic title!

Having read your response there, I can see where you are coming from a lot better.

Lets just hope a firmware update is imminent, for everyones sake :)
 
Observe how selfish this rant is. You want the iTune store now. A few extra days is too much. I just want an iPhone. AT&T does not cover Idaho and has no public plans to expand here. So you say I should wait years so that you can have your app a week earlier?

No. I'm not going to do that. And I'm not going to feel bad about it.
 
OK, I made a funny earlier in this thread, but I figure that I need to add my two cents since this is a topic that is important.

First off, sanford, while I like that you are quite capable of holding your argument in a well-organized fashion, there's a main point I think you're missing here. First off, if you are simply speculating, you should probably not be so admissible and defensive to the arguments of others, no matter how silly or base their comments might be. Be open to the idea that Apple is still ironing out a few last bugs in the release. Simply because SOME phones you've seen in the UK Apple Store and Apple demo web pages are running the 1.1.1 firmware DOESN'T necessarily mean its right for the everyday user here in the USA. Perhaps there's a bug with AT&T's EDGE network with 1.1.1, perhaps there's a bug when used with the rumored video out feature, OR perhaps it IS the cause of third party apps that is delaying the release. The point I'm trying to make is that you shouldn't fuss about when it comes out; after all, you bought the iPhone without even thinking there was going to be a wireless music store on it, so why worry now? Be blessed that Apple generally doesn't release, buggy, half-assed software updates that people have to live with like M$ does.

/rant
 
It's spite I tell ya

I suspect we're going to have to hold out until the last possible moment (28th). It's retribution for the $100 given back to us.
 
For all we know, 1.1.1 was a dry run semi-internal release for press demos only. By the time the update actually hits us, it could have more goodies, and be called 1.2. After all, we went from 1.0 to 1.0.1 to 1.0.2...1.0.3 would be normally be the next number, not 1.1.1.
 
For all we know, 1.1.1 was a dry run semi-internal release for press demos only. By the time the update actually hits us, it could have more goodies, and be called 1.2. After all, we went from 1.0 to 1.0.1 to 1.0.2...1.0.3 would be normally be the next number, not 1.1.1.
Well, 1.0.1 and 1.0.2 were just minor fixes while 1.1 included new features (WiFi iTunes Store, Languages, Double Touch). It's obvious that 1.1 was not released simply because there must have been bugs or something that saw them just fix it up and release the next version, 1.1.1.
 
It's obvious that 1.1 was not released simply because there must have been bugs or something that saw them just fix it up and release the next version, 1.1.1.

Hmm. I wonder what happened to 1.0.4 ~ 1.0.9. They probably had cut n' paste, Flash, and MMS. And all you can drink soda. No one ever mentions that one.
 
Hmm. I wonder what happened to 1.0.4 ~ 1.0.9. They probably had cut n' paste, Flash, and MMS. And all you can drink soda. No one ever mentions that one.
The SAA (Soda Association of America) demanded that the user must pay for the soda, regardless of amount of said soda already available in the user's fridge.
 
Honestly, after reading Jobs comments on hacks made at the London event, I'm more convinced than ever they are smashing hacks. I think they care a lot less about third-party native applications than they do anySIM -- I mean, you know, brick your phone, that's your problem; but use on a non-contract carrier, no way. I'm sure AT&T is all up and sideways with them about anySIM; it's the contractual exclusivity. Everyone is trying to be cool about for PR reason but from my experience in business AT&T is raging mad and screaming at Apple to fix this since there is no way they can do it. (I've even heard that AT&T is considering legal action against *Tmobile* if they allow iPhones to operate on their stateside network; and due to some federal interference with trade laws, I they could at least get the case a ways past summary dismissal.)

In fact I'd bet right now it's anySIM holding up the update release. anySIM was released rather late in the development cycle for this software and they'd have not been able to get at it until the firmware update was mostly or all done. anySIM is a real problem. I make these statements having worked in the past for several years with software and media companies compelled to or just prone to keeping their internal processes under wraps.

Even the currently known version number is suspicious. 1.1.1 That's a release version number. In fact that's a release version number plus a dot-rev bug fix. I don't know anything about Apple's current internal dev. numbering scheme for hardware firmware; but I did know in officially capacity Apple's past internal dev. numbering scheme for hardware firmware. That looks nothing like it. These things usually look almost like a hex string. It is conceivable that a dev. build, call it X, was QA certified, released to distribution and assigned release version number 1.1. But then it was held up -- I opine, by anySIM -- and they continued to revise 1.1, probably to fix bugs they caught late or break anySIM, and then the new dev. build that was based on 1.0, call it Y, was certified and released to distribution, then assigned release version 1.1.1 because release version 1.1 had already been used, and in good version control you *never* use the same internal build or release version numbers twice, even if they were never actually released. My point is that since this is currently 1.1.1, there was a release 1.1 that was skipped, and now there is a release 1.1.1 that has been noted in the wild but has not been released.

It certainly could be just because Apple isn't damn well ready to release it. There's a good argument for that: the longer you hold people off the later they expect yet another feature upgrade. But it is my opinion that it was Apple's plan to release version 1.1 when the WiFi Store went live, only a few days after the 5th Sept. announcement, well in advance of the touch shipping, so the iPhone customers had the WiFi Store first, but due to something, again in my opinion anySIM, they had to scuttle that and Jobs made his "later in the month" announcement about the iPhone store. So 1.1.1 sits. Why? I think it's because it either doesn't break anySIM or no one is yet convinced that the anySIM developers wouldn't maybe change two lines of code and be rolling all over again.

But why was 1.1.1 on not only the London iPhones but on the photos for $100 store credit? There was no reason to show an iPhone in London with any feature set other than the current set in the States. The thing doesn't even go on sale until 9th Nov. In fact it is counter to Apple's behavior to show a product with unannounced, unreleased features -- they gave away video-out, home button config, other things -- so as to they themselves sort of officially leak what is coming. The new A/V out cables were at first listed on the online Apple Store as compatible with the iPhone and then they took that down within an hour. There was no reason to other than it leaked a future feature, because the cables won't even ship until well after video-out should be available. They took it the iPhone off because they didn't want to leak the future video-out feature. So they leak it all over the place today? Makes no sense at all.

It is to me pretty obvious that firmware revision 1.1x was already supposed to be out, and I can think of only two possible reasons it's not: one, there's some monster, catastrophic bug(s) in there in which case they took a big, big risk showing something that could brick on them in the middle of a press event when they could have just as easily showed a stable 1.0.2 model. Or Apple is not convinced they've nailed anySIM. Obviously my contention is the latter.

The deal is with the iPhone that you accept certain terms when you buy one. I didn't like the terms at first myself and waited almost two months to buy an iPhone, when normally although I wouldn't have lined up to get one I would have likely bought one in the first couple days, while I mulled over whether I thought the device was worth accepting the terms. I had numerous conversations with AT&T to suss out their customer service level. I spent quite a bit time with testing out the iPhone as best I could with display models. I made the decision to buy and accepted the terms. Honestly, I still don't like the terms on their own merits and declare them fairly consumer-unfriendly. But I decided that for me it was worth it.

You don't have to accept the terms. You don't have to buy an iPhone. In some cases you may not be able to buy an iPhone. A poster above mentions that he lives in Idaho with no current or announced AT&T service in his region. So he says he doesn't feel bad about violating the terms of the deal, no matter how that negatively affects me. But there are things I can't do or make use of because I don't live where he does. Does that give me the right to restrict the use of the benefits of his choice of place to live? Can I tell him just how many weekends a season he may snow ski, or how long he has to wait into the season to go skiing just because I can't ski where I live at all? Obviously, that's ridiculous. But he's telling me it's not. He's telling me that it's okay for him to make use of something, anySIM, that is the cause, in my opinion, of damage done to my ability to enjoy the experience and benefits of something that happens to be accessible to me but not to him. He's telling me I need to wait extra time for what I want so he can have what has not yet been made available to him. Give me a break. And the argument makes no sense, because so what if I wait a few weeks, Apple breaks anySIM an then he *still* can't use an iPhone.

Anyway, my defensiveness to some of the arguments presented against me was more due to the manner in which they were presented to me, even though I had carefully labeled this thread as a speculative rant. Not so much because I refuse to hear a dissenting opinion.

(Pardon any typos, I have to run.)

OK, I made a funny earlier in this thread, but I figure that I need to add my two cents since this is a topic that is important.

First off, sanford, while I like that you are quite capable of holding your argument in a well-organized fashion, there's a main point I think you're missing here. First off, if you are simply speculating, you should probably not be so admissible and defensive to the arguments of others, no matter how silly or base their comments might be. Be open to the idea that Apple is still ironing out a few last bugs in the release. Simply because SOME phones you've seen in the UK Apple Store and Apple demo web pages are running the 1.1.1 firmware DOESN'T necessarily mean its right for the everyday user here in the USA. Perhaps there's a bug with AT&T's EDGE network with 1.1.1, perhaps there's a bug when used with the rumored video out feature, OR perhaps it IS the cause of third party apps that is delaying the release. The point I'm trying to make is that you shouldn't fuss about when it comes out; after all, you bought the iPhone without even thinking there was going to be a wireless music store on it, so why worry now? Be blessed that Apple generally doesn't release, buggy, half-assed software updates that people have to live with like M$ does.

/rant
 
Based on Steve's comments I believe his team is hard at work breaking the hacks. In particular, UNLOCK and RINGTONES because of agreements with other companies.

As far as that 1.1.1. My thinking was that it uses the same software base for iPod Touch and it was released as 1.1 and since iPhone as more features it needed a slight revision. But you never know.
 
I think they've already broken anySIM. Remember, it's a soft-unlock. Even IF it updates internal firmware, every other Apple update has managed to update the firmware, so I'm sure that alone will break anySIM. Now, you may be correct in that they are trying to patch it to where the firmware CAN'T be manually flashed again. I'm just saying, it's speculation. You could also speculate that they are adding Flash and trying to optimize it, thus the delay, but we can't be certain of that, either. These are features that weren't even announced when the iPhone first came out, so the fact they're even being added is miraculous. Never to worry, in the meantime, any song you can get on the Wifi Music Store you'll find on iTunes.

Patience.....patience.
 
Breaking the unlocks is my theory for the delay, too. It's an informed theory, but it's still just a theory.

On point, though, at the iPhone announcement, before and after launch, Jobs did say Apple would be continually updating via software updates the current iPhone models. So specifically these features were not promised, but it's not miraculous they're adding features, as they did promise new features of an undefined type.

I think they've already broken anySIM. Remember, it's a soft-unlock. Even IF it updates internal firmware, every other Apple update has managed to update the firmware, so I'm sure that alone will break anySIM. Now, you may be correct in that they are trying to patch it to where the firmware CAN'T be manually flashed again. I'm just saying, it's speculation. You could also speculate that they are adding Flash and trying to optimize it, thus the delay, but we can't be certain of that, either. These are features that weren't even announced when the iPhone first came out, so the fact they're even being added is miraculous. Never to worry, in the meantime, any song you can get on the Wifi Music Store you'll find on iTunes.

Patience.....patience.
 
Can I tell him just how many weekends a season he may snow ski, or how long he has to wait into the season to go skiing just because I can't ski where I live at all? Obviously, that's ridiculous.

Instead, you tell me what products I can and can't buy and what I'm allowed to do with the things I own. Thank goodness we avoided being ridiculous!
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.