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First Customer Receives Psystar Mac Clone
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I hope not in a way. Apple has a chance to move the PC industry forward in a way Microsoft could not. However, they're as shortsighted as ever.
Twenty years of experience doesn't mean you actually learned anything. Several points I'd like to make:
1. It doesn't matter whether the PC_EFI emulator was written by Letkas from scratch or whether it is a derived work. He has the sole copyright on all the changes that he made, and without his permission no copy of _his_ additions or changes can be used. If it is not only his work, then the situation is even worse for anyone who wants to make copies, because they need permission from everyone who has added to that code.
2. You said elsewhere that no license is needed to use any copyrighted code. That's a strawman. You don't need a license to use the code, you need a license to be allowed to make copies. If you give me some code that you wrote, without any license, then I can _use_ the code (because you gave it to me), but I cannot make any copies (because I don't have a license).
3. You said elsewhere that a license cannot be changed retroactively. That is true, but after Letkas' license change, Psystar cannot make any more copies of his software (and I doubt they were allowed to make any in the first place). That means they cannot install it on any computer that they haven't installed it on yet.
4. You seem to be confused about the meaning of "public domain". "Public domain" has different meaning in everyday life and in copyright law. In everyday life, something is said to be in the public domain if any member of the public can get hold of it, if they want. In copyright law, "public domain" means that the copyright holder has given up his rights. That can only happen if the copyright holder declares this himself explicitly. Leaving discs with source code lying around in places where others can find it doesn't put something into the public domain according to the law. It is very hard to find any software that is in the public domain in the meaning of copyright law.
I'd just like to add a #5:
In my own experience with lawyers protecting the IP of a software company, they don't want you using sample code from websites. Why? Because there is no license attached. Because of the lack of license, you are NOT protected from a lawsuit, as a lack of license essentially means "You, the user/reader, get no rights to copy this."
Just because something is on a website without a license doesn't mean it is public domain, or can be freely copied. In fact, experience has said the opposite, and can open a company up to risk of litigation.
Now, rjohnstone is correct that you need to pass scrutiny before litigation can proceed... but gnasher also is correct that the author of the /changes/ has copyright control over those changes, even when it is a derived work. The BSD license used on the EFI framework reinforces that, as the BSD license allows you to add further restrictions to the BSD license as long as you don't violate the terms of the BSD license itself, or remove restrictions that the original license had.
The thing you all need to remember, and this runs counter to what has been stated above is that licensing is completely arbitrary.
In other words, the EULA could say you cant use the product while wearing black socks. And it would be perfectly legitimate. So there are no hard fast answers unless you read the eula
One other thing. I know that a lot of people who give their software away (i.e. in the public domain) have EULAs that says that you are welcome to use, share, modify their code. however they almost all say that you can not SELL their code.
Don
One question. When you pay Psystar $159 for OSX pre-installed, do they at least buy a license from Apple? or is it a ripped off license.
In other words, the EULA could say you cant use the product while wearing black socks. And it would be perfectly legitimate. So there are no hard fast answers unless you read the eula
One other thing. I know that a lot of people who give their software away (i.e. in the public domain) have EULAs that says that you are welcome to use, share, modify their code. however they almost all say that you can not SELL their code.
Don
One question. When you pay Psystar $159 for OSX pre-installed, do they at least buy a license from Apple? or is it a ripped off license.
They are paying for every copy and, I believe, shipping a shrink-wrapped Leopard disk with each system.
Engadget got a Psystar system to review. Check it out here:
http://www.engadget.com/2008/04/30/psystar-open-computer-unboxing-and-hands-on/
http://www.engadget.com/2008/04/30/psystar-open-computer-unboxing-and-hands-on/
WOW! Just took a look at the un-boxing pics. Does this machine look cheap or what? I picked up plenty cheap machines in my days, but this... ugh. The entire case is plastic? The didn't bother to cover the floppy drive slot?!
Cheap, Cheap!!! It's like buying a mac at a dollar store.
I DONT THINK THIS IS THE WAY TO WIN OVER THE CONSUMER MARKET.
People taking their first plunge into the mac, are going to be very disappointed... They are missing the quality, sheer authenticity, and most importantly the support of genuine apple products.
Cheap, Cheap!!! It's like buying a mac at a dollar store.
I DONT THINK THIS IS THE WAY TO WIN OVER THE CONSUMER MARKET.
People taking their first plunge into the mac, are going to be very disappointed... They are missing the quality, sheer authenticity, and most importantly the support of genuine apple products.
I don't think it looks bad at all. It looks like an average PC; I don't what else one would expect. In the CNET pictures there appears to be some speckling on the case but that could be a trick of the light. I'll be very interested to read what the reviewers have to say.
Psystar Open Computer notes, benchmarks and video
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Category: 3rd Party Hardware
Link: Psystar Open Computer notes, benchmarks and video
Description:: none
Posted on MacBytes.com
Approved by Mudbug
Category: 3rd Party Hardware
Link: Psystar Open Computer notes, benchmarks and video
Description:: none
Posted on MacBytes.com
Approved by Mudbug
I think that's likely, although I think they were likely to sell barely any machines before this stunt, and now they're only likely to sell slightly more than that. So I guess you're backing off saying that it will make them actual profits?
Except that they've come out and said no support. We already know that facet is nonexistent. So I guess you wouldn't consider it.
They mention the mini by name on their website and describe it as "expensive". At only $45 less, their box isn't much cheaper.
So I guess by "range" you mean machines with a similar configuration/featureset? Sure, apple used to have more options in that respect, but the pricing was even less competitive than it is now. They certainly don't compete at all in the under $1000 range.
That's not my comparison, it's Psystar's.
Sure looks like you did, you can't remember what you said in your own post?
And no, it isn't a monopoly or a violation of antitrust laws. Nor is an "artificial limitation" illegal. You can't pretend something is illegal just because you don't like it.
So? It's a business's prerogative to use strategies that will make them more money. Sorry, but that's life. On the other hand, it's the consumer's prerogative to decide they don't like a company's business practices and not buy from them.
And you can't just install OSX on any PC, the OS has to be hacked to do it (because the EFI *is* different than what's on a PC). If nothing else, apple could probably get them shut down for redistributing a hacked version of the OS.
Microsoft got in trouble for exploiting their monopoly. If they weren't, bundling the browser and OS would be fine - companies do that all the time. Just like Apple bundling hardware and software, totally legal.
Wow, this actually made me laugh. I don't know if you're unable to understand what I said or if you're getting blinded by your emotions. "Lobbying power"?? A corporation can do what the law says they can do, and that includes protection of their intellectual property. And how can they affect "WHOMEVER THEY WANT", particularly the 90+% of the population who doesn't buy a mac?
By the way, you're not helping your argument by "fanboy" name calling, or bringing out the old "but if MICROSOFT was doing it..." cliche. Really, it comes off as desperate.
Yeah, it would. As long as there is more than one water company to choose from, they can say I have to stand on one foot and sing "Happy Birthday" while the tap is running for all I care - if their contract is unreasonable they just don't get my business, I just go to their competitor.
Yep, too bad.
But what if BMW is too expensive but I don't like Hyundai?
But what if PS3 is too expensive but I don't like Xbox?
But what if Coke is too expensive but I don't like Pepsi?
Tough.
If you like the product and are OK with the terms, buy it. If not, buy the competition.
And they say it's "crazy loud" and have found a ton of glitches already in the first few hours of running it. I can't wait until 10.5.3 is released and they report back on trying to get it to work.
Profit was the wrong word to use. What I mean is income, or sales.
Where did they say no support? They have a support page that actually has a phone number now (didn't before), and email, etc. I mean support for the hardware; I don't expect any software support.
Yeah, their webpage is misleading. They start by saying "Why spend $1999 to get the least expensive Apple computer with a decent video card," which obviously refers to the Mac Pro, but then they mention the mini by name and call it expensive, as if the mini is the one that costs $1999. I wouldn't call the mini expensive, and I wouldn't really compare it to the Psystar machine either.
By "range" I mean they had some systems with less power and capability and some with more, all of which were expandable and upgradable. I'm not sure what you mean by competitive; maybe they didn't compete well with cheap PCs, but I don't care about that. I want to see more of a product line from Apple.
"Crazy loud" is bad, probably enough to be a deal breaker for me, unless I figured out a way to put the box in another room. On the other hand I don't see "tons" of glitches in their report, I only see a couple. The big one would be the DHCP problem. That System Profiler doesn't report everything correctly might be irritating but not necessarily unexpected; I don't know if that works well on other Hackintoshes. It doesn't have the latest OS build but that may not be a problem - it could be just the build they were using to install these systems. Other than that I don't see any issues in their report.
I'm talking about support for OSX, which neither they nor apple (obviously) provides. You would really be OK with buying a machine where they say the OS/apps may not completely work, and don't provide any software support?
Even though many of the things they list aren't deal breakers, like things not showing up right in System Profiler, I do think that is a lot of things to find within hours of the first boot. That's not a good sign at all, and I expect that list to get longer.
Where did they say the OS/apps may not completely work? All I've seen is that you may not be able to upgrade. That would be unfortunate, and you'd have to figure that risk into a decision of whether or not to buy. But I don't think they have implied that the system as it ships is unstable (or significantly more unstable than a real Mac would be).
Yes, could be, so it will be interesting to get the full report.
http://www.psystar.com/will_my_software_work.html
Will my software work?
Psystar has tested our Open computers with standard OS X software. We have not found any software incompatibilities with the standard OS software but we cannot guarantee that any of the software on your computer will work in Leopard.
I also liked this part:
https://www.psystar.com/terms_of_service.html
Open Computer and OpenPro
When you purchase an Open Computer or OpenPro you understand that you are not purchasing a computer made by Apple Computers, Inc. You understand that Apple Computers does not support the Open Computer or OpenPro in any capacity and that they may not approve of your usage of the Open Computer. In the same token Psystar does not guarantee that each and every program and feature will operate correctly as the Open Computer and/or OpenPro is not supported by Apple Computers. Psystar does not support the OS X operating system. All copies of OS X sold by Psystar are legitimately licensed and purchased from Apple Computers and are not pirated in any way. Psystar does not guarantee that any of your peripherals, Apple-related or not, will function correctly. Psystar will not be responsible for your usage of the Open Computer and/or OpenPro in any way. Psystar is not responsible for any legal repercussions brought upon you due to your use or involvement with the Open Computer and/or OpenPro.
I don't think that Apple guarantees that their software will work either. Personally this kind of general disclaimer doesn't bother me. As others have pointed out, the hardware is generic enough and close enough to actual Apple hardware. If the system is up and running, I doubt there will be serious glitches due to the hardware. If there are, people will discover them pretty quickly.
$550 is, to my mind, not a lot of money to spend for a computer. A decision on whether or not to buy something like this is a matter of assessing risk vs. benefit. If the worst happened and it was a complete loss it would be unfortunate but not a tragedy. I'd be more likely not to buy it because it's "crazy loud" than anything else I've heard. But you never know, they might work out the initial problems in the next batch or in the next month or whatever, and come up with a decent product for the money. I still wouldn't dismiss the possibility entirely, but I would wait to get a more complete picture of how things will turn out.
Not abuse at all, "over a grand" is peanuts compared to how much powermac/ pro level Macs have cost in the past - when the $/£ were both worth much more too.. Comparatively, the Powermac, as a Xeon based workstation compares ok to Dells on price etc.
They just dont have a mid-tower. That's not abuse at all. It's not like the mini is worthless.. And there's still the iMac. I'd be in the market for a mid-tower too, but its no biggie.
I don't see this as abuse, or a problem. Just because some people would prefer things differently doesn't mean they should be that way, or Apple's hand should be forced. If Apple can get more of the middle range users to opt for iMacs or MPros and increase their profit margin, why isn't that just good business sense? Why is that a problem? They don't have to cater for everyone.
I wasn't aware they were selling any "hacked OS" with their product. They sell it with or without MacOSX installed. You can buy an off-the-shelf copy of OSX at somewhere like Best Buy and install it on their machine. It's the firmware/EFI simulator that makes OSX believe it's an Apple machine.
The whole point is Apple has an OS that will run on standard PC hardware. They are saying you CAN buy OSX, but you cannot use it on that hardware because they want your money for the hardware TOO. Well TOO bad. They should have to compete for my money for both hardware and software. Their hardware used be somewhat unique. It's just clone hardware in a box now. Maybe they should look towards making money off their intellectual property instead of reselling generic clone hardware for 2-3x what it's worth and saying too bad you have to buy or you can't use our OS.
It's not that a MacMini is total crap, but rather it's artificially limited to have no useful 3D graphics what-so-ever and therefore they force you artificially to buy a machine that costs over $2000 just to get a $200 graphics card. But that's OK because they're allowed to screw you over. It's the American way according to Milo.