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First Customer Receives Psystar Mac Clone

Roadstar said:
-It's not only Apple EULA they're breaking, as it seems to be the case that they're violating also the PC EFI v8 license (source: http://www.insanely-great.com/news.php?id=8892). While I don't find all EULA restrictions reasonable, making money by knowingly violating several licenses is something I disapprove of.
Click to expand...

According to that webpage, the EFI v8 license says: "Redistribution and use in binary form for direct or indirect commercial purposes, with or without modification, is stricktly forbidden."

Who wrote that license? Did they really use the word "stricktly"? ;)

I believe this is the license that the author of the EFI emulator added to it after Psystar announced their product. As has been discussed earlier in this thread, the situation regarding this license is unclear and it is also not clear that Psystar is in violation of any license in this regard.

I don't know anything about insanely-great.com, but reading their previous reports on the Psystar story, they appear to be Mac apologists. Every one of them has an extremely negative slant on Psystar.

-The thing is named OpenComputer. What exactly is open there? Violating licenses and resorting to hacks is not something I'd call open.
Click to expand...

Unless Psystar is violating yet another license or copyright, I would think they could name their product anything they want. After all, it was originally called the OpenMac.
 
oban14 said:
We're going to have to agree to strongly disagree here... but a lot of it depends on what aspect of fanboyism irks you. I've seen them all.

1) Microsoft fanboys are pretty mild. They have the most market share and spend most of their breath defending Vista, stating that it isn't as bad as it's made out to be. They're mostly right. They tend to help you when you look for help, and they may have some blinders on when it comes to Microsoft's problems. But overall, they're OK.

2) Linux fanboys should really be broken out by distro. Ubuntu fanboys are easily the most supportive and helpful of the bunch. The more esoteric/difficult the distro is the more likely you'll get some RTFM comments.

3) Apple fanboys have a few problems. First is the blind allegiance to Apple, the reality distortion field that Steve has created has somehow spread into their brains. Every release from Apple becomes amazing, ground breaking and brilliant. Everything Apple does is great and must be defended viciously. Secondly, Part of the problem is that some have great technical expertise, but many know about as much about their computers as they do about their televisions. Third, and what I find the most depressing, is that their attitudes are a complete smack in the face of the tradition of hacking that founded Apple and the entire industry. Comments along the lines of "Anyone who tries to build their own Mac from spare parts is going to get a miserable experience and should be sued for breaking the law" are really depressing to anyone who knows the California spirit that started the whole revolution. If the Apple fanboys had their way, Woz and Jobs would still be in jail for selling blueboxes back in the seventies.

4) OpenBSD fanboys can be helpful, but are more like the Linux peeps you talked about in your original post.

5) FreeBSD types are helpful, but they also think people should read a book or two on FreeBSD before tackling it.
Click to expand...

Damn, spiff it up a bit and you're ready for a Sociology Ph.D. ;)
 
k2spitfire88 said:
That's what the main point is. You can choose not to buy from Apple if you don't like their prices, they are not forcing you to buy from them. You can try to hack the OS if you want, but you CANNOT sell someone else's work, to make a profit (not talking if you buy something, and then sell it used, at the price of your choice). Or look at it this way, you can't run a business by using someone else's work to make you a profit, unless your authorized. Psystar is making an illegal business decision. That is that. They can do what they want, and hopefully this will make Apple see the desire for the machine, but I think that eventually, they will have to shut down, because Apple will force them to. Because they are doing something illegal, they should be shut down.
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The problem with the above is the argument assumes it's own conclusion. It assumes violations of Apple EULA is illegal. We don't know this. What if the EULA is illegal?

Also you say "not talking if you buy something, and then sell it used, at the price of your choice" What happens if Psystar is buying copies of Leopard from Amazon at reatil price and reselling them, at cost?

The problem Apple has in going after these guys is that there is a small chance it could backfire and Apple could loose. If Apple looses they lose big ans if they win they gain little except to squash a minor anoyance. Apple's risk to pay-off ratio here is not very good.

You see Apple's problem is this very old and ingrained concept that contracts are only binding after both paties have agread to be bound by the contract. After all, can you imagine a world where you can be bound by a contract you declined to sign? The problem with a EULA is that the end user can not make a choise to be bound or not. Just try and decline the agreement and return your copy of Leoppard. You can't. If a judge agrees that EULAs can't be declined Apple looses. I don't see Apple rushing to accept that risk.
 
This thread is tasty bait indeed. All the fanboys are crashing the surface here.

Guys. get over it. First, lets start with some simple facts:
1) Steve Jobs is human
2) Apple computers are nicely crafted works of art you can use.
3) You pay a hefty premium for that work of art.
4) You pay a hefty premium for the IP that goes into making a fully integrated computer system. (Just like Sun/Solaris people do) By integrated system, I mean that you pay a lot more for the privelege of buying the hardware/os/software from the same manufacturer.

This creates an interesting arbitrage opportunity. Lets face it, from a comodity hardware perspective, a 20" imac is a $450 computer.

SO OF COURSE THE PSYSTAR PC LOOKS CHEAP. Its a $400 piece of hardware with a more robust technical configuration than an iMac. They're going to cut corners somewhere.

Re: all of this fuming and hand wringing. I think its a pretty interesting situation. Psystar seems to be intentionally baiting Apple to get some kind of a cease and desist.

I personally hope that Apple wins. But lets look at from an ethical perspective. Some people on this thread act as if you pooped on Steve Jobs' desk at the mere mention of a desire to get OSX running on a pc.

As a hobbyist/geek, if I can get it going on my dell after writing a check for $3000 for my mbp, I dont think the folks at apple are very worried. They got their 40% margin on my $3K.

However, if I figure out how to get it going on my Dell, and then begin selling pre-installed dells. Well, now you are crossing the line.

Don
p.s. I dont play an IP lawyer on TV

p.p.s. And yes, apple fanboys are the most annoying. For example. Real dialogue on this site. "I just switched from windows, how do you get OSX to do This . . . "

Answer: "OSX doesnt do that, but why would you EVER WANT to do that??"
Idiots

p.p.p.s. Dont get me wrong. I am thrilled with my mbp purchase. Everything works the way it should. stable, fast, solid. But it is imperfect like anything made by man. And there are some things (not many) that windows does do better.

I recently picked up a scratch and dent Vista PC for $195. Oh my god, it is infuriating. However, Media Center is FANTASTIC. It works well and has a very nice UI. Its functionality is far better than front row's.

Most vista functions are so bad, and the media center is so good, I have it set to boot to the media center UI. Just as well, I purchased it to be a music server for a whole house audio I'm putting in. (using casa tunes www.casatunes.com very cool)
 
Chris,
I agree with you, mostly.

All the major software companies policy that allows you to return their s/w if you disagree with the EULA. (often times the EULA cant be seen until the s/w is in process of being installed).

You usually can not return it to the store, but most have a policy where you can send the recipt in with the s/w and they will send you a check.

They started doing this a few years ago. I believe this was litigated. Although I'm not sure.

I do remember (grain of salt) reading that a judge ruled that a reference on the packaging that says "see our eula at www.buggysoft.com/eula" was not adequate.

Don
 
dukebound85 said:
yet i built a 900 dollar pc that scores a 6400+ on geekbench and have leopard on it

blows by my mb in every sense of the word
Click to expand...

but that's a pc/desktop compared to a laptop, so obviously it would...

donmei said:
This thread is tasty bait indeed. All the fanboys are crashing the surface here...
snip

p.p.p.s. Dont get me wrong. I am thrilled with my mbp purchase. Everything works the way it should. stable, fast, solid. But it is imperfect like anything made by man. And there are some things (not many) that windows does do better.

I recently picked up a scratch and dent Vista PC for $195. Oh my god, it is infuriating. However, Media Center is FANTASTIC. It works well and has a very nice UI. Its functionality is far better than front row's.

Most vista functions are so bad, and the media center is so good, I have it set to boot to the media center UI. Just as well, I purchased it to be a music server for a whole house audio I'm putting in. (using casa tunes www.casatunes.com very cool)
Click to expand...

I agree with you here. I have XP Media Center on my Toshiba (still waiting on my MB this summer) and Media Center is one of the best things that windows has going for it!
 
So.. Uh... this thread started talking about some guy who actually bought and recieved one of these Pystart computers......

Where is HIS commentary on how well [or not] it works.. etc.. etc.???
 
SDDave2007 said:
So.. Uh... this thread started talking about some guy who actually bought and recieved one of these Pystart computers......

Where is HIS commentary on how well [or not] it works.. etc.. etc.???
Click to expand...

Psystar computers, and it started with a video that was posted of him starting it up. We kinda got a little sidetracked though...
There are a lot of reviews on it though, and the video link is on the first page of this thread.
 
k2spitfire88 said:
Psystar computers, and it started with a video that was posted of him starting it up. We kinda got a little sidetracked though...
There are a lot of reviews on it though, and the video link is on the first page of this thread.
Click to expand...

So... we still have no substantial evidence that this company is "real" and/or delivering product..... or in the past two weeks only ONE person has gotten one, and he is so enthralled with it that he hasn't rebutted or commented on any of these entries beyond starting this thread with a unconfirmed video?
 
SDDave2007 said:
So... we still have no substantial evidence that this company is "real" and/or delivering product..... or in the past two weeks only ONE person has gotten one, and he is so enthralled with it that he hasn't rebutted or commented on any of these entries beyond starting this thread with a unconfirmed video?
Click to expand...

Why would you assume that anyone who received one of these systems would immediately announce it on a media site or elsewhere online? Actually there is another account from a customer. Unfortunately, that person's video card was DOA and he hasn't been able to get adequate response from Psystar's support line:
http://gizmodo.com/386630/surprise-psystar-tech-support-gets-off-to-a-shaky-start

However, this was posted by Gizmodo, which has been on an anti-Psystar campaign since the start. First they were sure to be a hoax. Now that they seem to be for real, the fans are too loud, the system cannot be updated (which is false), Apple will soon put them out of business, and oh joy! their support line is basically unresponsive. Well, I don't expect any balanced reporting there.
 
A number of points that keep coming up about PsyStar’s actions that are simply not true and need to be clarified.

1. Violation of an EULA is a breech of contract issue. It is not a criminal issue. There is no criminal component to it. Saying that PsyStar is doing some thing 'illegal' is confusing a criminal action with a civil action. A court will have to decide that a breech of contract has occurred and decide what remedies, if any, Apple is entitled to.

Here is the EULA:

http://images.apple.com/legal/sla/docs/macosx105.pdf

2. It is perfectly acceptable to modify the open source portion of OSX. OSX is based on BSD. Read the EULA. Apple specifically states in paragraph 2D of the EULA that the kernel may be modified:

D. Certain components of the Apple Software, and third party open source programs included with the Apple Software, have been or may be made available by Apple on its Open Source web site http://www.opensource.apple.com/) (collectively the "Open-Sourced Components"). You may modify or replace only these Open-Sourced
Components; provided that: (i) the resultant modified Apple Software is used, in place of the unmodified Apple Software, on a single Apple-labeled computer; and (ii) you otherwise comply with the terms of this License and any applicable licensing terms governing use of the Open-Sourced Components. Apple is not obligated to provide any updates, maintenance, warranty, technical or other support, or services for the resultant modified Apple Software.

3. For those that think that PsyStar is violating Netkas EFI v8 emulator EULA forget that the EFI V8 emulator was put in the public domain 2 years ago. Under US Law, once in the public domain, it can not be taken back. Netkas has no claim against PsyStar (or anyone else) for using the software in a commercial venture. Writing an after-the-fact EULA is just nonsense.

4. It is not illegal to re-sell goods in Florida. PsyStar is buying legal copies of OSX and reselling them. As long as the goods are not stolen or are counterfeit, Psystar can sell all the copies of OSX they want. Apple will have to go to court and convince a judge that PsyStar should not be allowed to buy Apple products at full retail and then sell them to an end user. Miami and Orlando are full of retailers who sell grey market goods that are not "authorized" retailers for the brands that they sell (cameras come to mind - Nikon, Canon, etc all have strong greymarket channels). While Apple might prevail, it will be a tough fight for them.

5. For those who insist on stating that PsyStar's actions are illegal, please quote the Florida or Federal statute that they are violating

http://www.flsenate.gov/Statutes/index.cfm?Tab=statutes&submenu=-1&CFID=82645831&CFTOKEN=51871512


http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/

6. Heres' a post by chuckjuhl that is worth reading.



http://www.news.com/newsblog/5208-10784_3-0.html?forumID=1&threadID=37002&messageID=400303&start=0

7. Apple can't 'brick' anybody's computer with an OSX update. They can render OSX unbootable but a hard drive format and re-install will bring it back to life. If they maliciously flash the BIOS renering the computer unbootable or format the hard drive causing loss of data they would be exposing themselves to serious liabilities and Apple’s lawyers will not permit them to do it.

8. Apple can't issue a cease and desist order. Only a court can. Apple can issue a cease and desist letter which will say somthing like 'if you don't stop doing what we don't want to to do then we will sue you and take you to court to get a judge to tell you to stop doing what we want to you to stop doing.' Apple will have to litigate the matter to get relief from the courts.

9. We have a free market in the USA. If you like the products that Apple offers by all means buy them. If you don't like PsyStar's offering then don't buy them.

10. I for one will wait and see what action Apple takes (if any) against PsyStar and will wait for a court to rule on PsyStar's activity. Until then they call sell all the OSX loaded computers that they want to.
 
aoresteen said:
9. We have a free market in the USA. If you like the products that Apple offers by all means buy them. If you don't like PsyStar's offering then don't buy them.
Click to expand...

So..............

What if Apple decided to open OS-X up, license for stand-alone installation on generic PC hardware, but did the following:

1. Sold it "as is" with no support.
2. Charged $1000 for it.
3. Continued to sell "upgrades" for OS-X for $129.

And then the "free market" decided that it was not worth it to pay $399 for a Phystar computer plus $1000 for the OS-X license? Would you still call that a "free market"?
 
aoresteen said:
D. Certain components of the Apple Software, and third party open source programs included with the Apple Software, have been or may be made available by Apple on its Open Source web site http://www.opensource.apple.com/) (collectively the "Open-Sourced Components"). You may modify or replace only these Open-Sourced
Components; provided that: (i) the resultant modified Apple Software is used, in place of the unmodified Apple Software, on a single Apple-labeled computer; and (ii) you otherwise comply with the terms of this License and any applicable licensing terms governing use of the Open-Sourced Components. Apple is not obligated to provide any updates, maintenance, warranty, technical or other support, or services for the resultant modified Apple Software.
Click to expand...

I've bolded the problem area in your argument.
 
czachorski said:
So..............

What if Apple decided to open OS-X up, license for stand-alone installation on generic PC hardware, but did the following:

1. Sold it "as is" with no support.
2. Charged $1000 for it.
3. Continued to sell "upgrades" for OS-X for $129.

And then the "free market" decided that it was not worth it to pay $399 for a Phystar computer plus $1000 for the OS-X license? Would you still call that a "free market"?
Click to expand...

Sure it is still a free market. Apple is free to set prices as they see fit. If Apple thinks the market would pay $1,000 for OSX let them try.

But the facts are Apple has set the retail price of OSX at $129. At that price PsyStar appears to be selling computers with OSX. The buyer can also get Linux or Windows. That is a free market.
 
aoresteen said:
Sure it is still a free market. Apple is free to set prices as they see fit. If Apple thinks the market would pay $1,000 for OSX let them try.

But the facts are Apple has set the retail price of OSX at $129. At that price PsyStar appears to be selling computers with OSX. The buyer can also get Linux or Windows. That is a free market.
Click to expand...

So I see a scenario where Apple does just what I outlined, let the free market "decide" that Apple-branded hardware is superior to cheap generic PC harware + $1000 OS X license fee, and effectively shut-down the cloning using the free market in a totally rock-solid legal fashion.
 
gauchogolfer said:
I've bolded the problem area in your argument.
Click to expand...

My argument is that this is a breech of contract issue and a judge will decide what is enforceable, not Apple. In order for Apple to get relief under the EULA they will have to sue PsyStar and a court will have to find that:

1. PsyStar is bound by the EULA
2. PsyStar breeched the EULA
3. Apple is entitled to damages from said breech.

Would a court find in Apple’s favor? Would they enforce the ‘Apple-labeled’ restriction? No one knows. But if you read DigiDyne Corp. Vs. Data General ( 734 F.2d 1336 (9th circuit, 1984)) you would understand that Apple might be guilty of an unlawful tying arrangement. I can not find any case where a court has upheld Apple’s tying arrangement. If you are aware of such a case please post it as I would love to read it. I don’t think that Apple has tested their EULA tying arrangement in court. Perhaps they know that they have an issue here and choose not to test it in court.
 
czachorski said:
So I see a scenario where Apple does just what I outlined, let the free market "decide" that Apple-branded hardware is superior to cheap generic PC harware + $1000 OS X license fee, and effectively shut-down the cloning using the free market in a totally rock-solid legal fashion.
Click to expand...

I don't get what you're saying. Apple's going to start charging $1000 for Leopard? Who's going to buy it?
 
Eric S. said:
I don't get what you're saying. Apple's going to start charging $1000 for Leopard? Who's going to buy it?
Click to expand...

No one is going to buy it. That is whole point. Re-read the logic I posted earlier. It is really good. It would give them a rock-solid legal way to continue to control the hardware that OS X is sold on, while side stepping all of the legal wrangling described in this thread. It would do it in a free market too. It's actually a pretty funny out. What are people going to do if Apple went this route? Get mad at them for charging $1000? Force them to sell it cheaper? Basically, if Apple desires to control the hardware that OS X is sold on, it is not that hard to do. They control the business model, as they should as the creator of the art.
 
czachorski said:
No one is going to buy it. That is whole point. Re-read the logic I posted earlier. It is really good. It would give them a rock-solid legal way to continue to control the hardware that OS X is sold on, while side stepping all of the legal wrangling described in this thread. It would do it in a free market too. It's actually a pretty funny out. What are people going to do if Apple went this route? Get mad at them for charging $1000? Force them to sell it cheaper? Basically, if Apple desires to control the hardware that OS X is sold on, it is not that hard to do. They control the business model, as they should as the creator of the art.
Click to expand...

except you forget how will people upgrade to 10.6 from 10.5?

i sure as heck wont pay 1000 to upgrade say my macbook....

that is bad logic by my book, not really good lol as i guarantee that 99%+ of those that BUY leopard now are mac users...not osx86 users

The best way is simply use a different archetecture chip say like powerpc lol. but of course apple wont do that. going to intel and x86 archetecture is what is causing these problems to originate
 
dukebound85 said:
except you forget how will people upgrade to 10.6 from 10.5?

i sure as heck wont pay 1000 to upgrade say my macbook....

that is bad logic by my book, not really good lol
Click to expand...

I don't mean to be short with you here, but re-read the logic. It's rock solid. They continue to sell "upgrades" for $129. I would imagine the "upgrades" could be sold with absolutely no difference than the current OS X discs - just a different licensing arrangement.

What if Apple decided to open OS-X up, license for stand-alone installation on generic PC hardware, but did the following:

1. Sold it "as is" with no support.
2. Charged $1000 for it.
3. Continued to sell "upgrades" for OS-X for $129.
Click to expand...
 
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