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However this result also omits the most interesting point!
Apple has more experience than Intel (or anyone else) at the use of small vs large cores on mobile, tablets, and "PC"s.
And they concluded that, tiny as their small cores are,

That isn't really applicable to Intel and their "efficient" cores. Their aren't really tiny and impoverished. Basically these are more space optimized broadwell (Gen 5) cores (that stop at AVX2 ) level of performance on a process shrunk node. It makes them relatively efficient. But mainly just smaller.


it wasn't worth putting even 4 of them on a "high end desktop" class machine. Which suggests that for the sort of work these machines are expected to perform, small cores just aren't worth much.

Apple's aren't worth much. Intel's are substantively more powerful. They are just relatively small compared to the AVX-512 and the kitchen sink large cores.


One or two are valuable to save power when reading email and watching movies, but they can't do much for heavy lifting. I'm honestly surprised by this -- I expected Apple to take by far the easier path of just cut-and-pasting the 4-core E-cluster. And yet they did not -- and they have far more real world knowledge than us.

A P core can "race to sleep" pretty fast if assigned only E core level work on a mostly idling SoC. On lightweight work it isn't necessarily the "burn power like no tomorrow" option for that kind of workload.

The problem with the Intel P (performance ) cores is that they are bulky big. To match the instruction set coverage in P and E in Alder lake they just have "dead" AVX-512 dangling in there.

Intel is trying to match AMD on the core count but isn't on 7nm. So Intel largely isn't trying to shrink the E cores too small. Just small enough to make up the gap "losing" because behind on process density.

For mobile Gen 12 (Alder Lake) mobile, Intel is going to cap out the P cores at 6. ( down from desktop 8). That is in part to save space as well as power. The E cores aren't being cut. ( not as big of a space hog in addition to lower power).


So Alder Lake may look good in raw thread count, but in real life is the config above realistically going be essentially an 8+2 machine, with the other 6 small cores irrelevant to anything?

That is mostly dependent upon the Windows 11 scheduler and application workload delegation.
High end Ryzen desktop Intel is competing against 16 cores. Stopping at 8 cores is a problem when it comes to trying to match in Multithread performance.

On mobile Ryzen is caps at 8 ( 16 threads ) , but Intel is more limited to 6 P. and 2C on the low end TDP mobile models) But if throw 8 "E" at the problems they should be able to pass the AMD. Just has to be about the same power the Ryzen mobile. Intel was probably also nervous about AMD maybe switching up and pushing mobile onto smaller nodes first ( instead of last ... so that could go past 8 cores ).

In short, I doubt Intel would be on this path at all if they were still 1-2 years ahead of everyone on process node fabrication skills.

Both Intel and AMD aren't throwing as much transistor budget (and bandwidth) at the iGPU as Apple is. That is another reason why Intel has a bigger budget for E cores.
On some future iterations where Intel wants to throw a substantially bigger iGPU tile/chiplet into the package then I suspect we'll see some shrinkage in E core count.
 
up to .faster yes ,but not in every sub-test.what you see here,the 50% imporvements only,in geekbench,is actually the average of all subtests

No. That 70% Apple states is in raw performance and their numbers usually prove to be accurate with these types of benchmarks. What you really see here is a single benchmark that may very well be the bottom of the results. Low scoring figures are the result of the CPU being taxed by other processes while the benchmark is running. For instance, a freshly booted new Mac starts an indexing process that hits the system fairly hard. This process has also affected battery longevity tests in the past.

If you look up GB scores for the original M1, it ranges from 5500 to 7800 for the same SoC, and averages about 7600-7700.
 
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You do realize you’re comparing a desktop chip to a mobile chip. And the i9 is hardly a middle of the road chip.

Also, have you read how the notch will be invisible with full screen apps, otherwise the space to either side of it will be taken up via the menu bar. In other words, you’ve been given 74 pixels of extra real estate that would normally be taken up via a bezel.
I'm comparing a computer to a computer, I use both laptops and desktops.

Yes, I did read that -- by shrinking the screen down and putting a black bar at the top -- basically a monitor wide notch, that probably wont look the same as the bezel that should have been there.

As for i9 being middle of the road, I was talking about total cost. My i9 is basically the same price as my M1 MBA was ($1600). That particular i9 processor is also 2, and soon to be 3 generations back.

You can get a lot of machines cheaper, but you can also get a lot of machines that cost quite a bit more. Like $3500 for the M1 Max 14 MBP that I would have spent if there was no notch.
 
yeah Chopped down clocks, but still one of the most powerful mobile chip available right now. The Razer Blade is not bad at all and the 3080 runs at 105W compare to the M1 Max 55W. IF and only IF Apple chart is true, Intel is really getting their ass kicked.

For the MBP 16" it is actually AMD that is getting their butt kicked bad. Ejected from the smaller screen iMac. Ejected from the MBP 16" . Probably Ejected from the iMac larger screen. Apple has tended to soak up AMD GPU inventory over the last several years. There is a GPU shortage now (and pricing bubble) , but when the system balances back out again.... AMD could be more "short" of heavy GPU consumer than Intel is of CPU packages. Apple was basically the major system implementer player who bought GPI stuff from AMD. Most other vendors have Nvidia hooks in them to try to push AMD to secondary products. Intel has a broader client base than just Apple. Intel may make less profit but they aren't going to go broke.

There is an x86_64 emulator in Apple Silicon variant of macOS 11 ( and 12 and likely more than several more). Apple has blocked any 3rd Party GPU drivers in macOS on Apple Silicon. Apple is heavily turning the screws on getting application developers to heavily optimize only for Apple GPU. Universal apps are fat binaries.


Did some more digging an the mobile 2080 is really more so a 3070 ( GA104 foundation instead of GA102).

Intel's discrete GPU are coming out on TMSC N6. I suspect they will have a better power curve than Nvidia's (and AMD's) stuff. And that mobile GPUs will be something they are more focused on. [ Not chasing the upper 25% of the GPU market for a while. 3080-3090 6800-6900 . ] Pairing up mobile CPUs to mobile GPUs is potentially more lucrative for Intel than the other two.
 
How about the OpenCL compute benchmark score which is more interesting than CPU or is OpenCL still broken on Apple Silicon since Big Sur 11.5? Anyhow, Geekbench is kind of garbage compared to real world workload.
 
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I'm returning my Alienware X17 and trading in my M1 MBA to get MBP 16 M1 Max!! With a 120Hz screen and GPU performance similar to RTX 3080, I can finally get rid of a Windows machine for gaming. I miss Alienware X17's 360Hz screen, but M1 Max is so much better than i7-11800H at lower power consumption.
Sarcasm? You realize you can't play 95% of the Steam library on macos, right?
 
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That will be in the spring.
I would expect the screen to be less impressive in the new air, probably no ProMotion. I would have loved an M1 version of the new Macbook Pro, I don’t really do any “performance” tasks, but I love a good screen, and the connectivity. I could even do with (gasp!) 8 GB of ram. Anyway, I will wait for the new air regardless. The new Pro is too expensive for me, and buying an Air in the “old” form factor will be short sighted… for me specifically.
 
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AMD that is getting their butt kicked bad
I doubt they feel it, Apple is less than 10% of the global market.
AMD has unmatched performance with their desktop cpu's, is used more and more in serverfarms because of perf/watt and their GPU/CPU's are used in all xbox and playstation machines.

Regardless, Apple is doing amazing things right now and can't wait to see what they have in store for their desktop line.
 
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Got 1,823 on single core, and 18,200 on multi-cores with my almost 1-year old Ryzen 9 5950X... and I don't even speak about my 6900XT. Ok this isn't the same consumption and packaging but it's a good thing they communicate on the power/consumption ratio instead of the raw power itself.
 
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I'm comparing a computer to a computer, I use both laptops and desktops.

Yes, I did read that -- by shrinking the screen down and putting a black bar at the top -- basically a monitor wide notch, that probably wont look the same as the bezel that should have been there.

As for i9 being middle of the road, I was talking about total cost. My i9 is basically the same price as my M1 MBA was ($1600). That particular i9 processor is also 2, and soon to be 3 generations back.

You can get a lot of machines cheaper, but you can also get a lot of machines that cost quite a bit more. Like $3500 for the M1 Max 14 MBP that I would have spent if there was no notch.
Is the notch really that big of an issue? You'll probably just get used to it after a while considering it sits in the menu bar, and I would expect that there will be a screen mode which allows the whole menu bar to shift down to its original position and put a black band around the notch to simulate the current bezels.

Humans are adept at filtering out things in their visual field that they don't want to see :)
 
I’m not sure why I expected this to be much greater than the M1 but thinking about it it makes complete sense. What will be interesting is the Compute benchmarks on Geekbench
 
That's fantastic, but what I'm really interested to see are GPU performance benchmarks. Can the 32-core Max really compete with a laptop RTX 3070 like some people were estimating/calculating months ago? And what about the other configurations we hadn't heard a peep of until now? How do they fare?

beyond this performance- if lives up to be true, will we start to see premium top tier game houses finally put in real effort for their games for macOS? Or will we be stuck with monument etc?!

will studios bring us top tier games finally?
 
Makes me laugh when i see members here write RIP Intel or words to that effect. Owners of Intel machines are not going to rush out and dump their Intel laptop for an Apple M1 Max one.
 
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It has a higher memory bandwidth, it's possible it would perform better in very memory intensive workloads.

True - and maybe it does - but Geekbench probably doesn't test exactly that.

It's doubtful though, the memory bandwidth is probably more for the GPU side of things where the data needs moving faster. I imagine the CPU cores perform identically.
 
Makes me laugh when i see members here write RIP Intel or words to that effect. Owners of Intel machines are not going to rush out and dump their Intel laptop for an Apple M1 Max one.

Really depends what they are used for and if they need the performance. The M1 MacBook Air has more power than most of the intel powered pros let alone these new units.
 
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The big difference between AMD, intel and Apple is when you unplug from power. M1 performs As if it’s still on mains power and even in high power mode AMD and intel performance crashes and battery life squirts away, and that’s without a dedicated GPU, with a dGPU it’s dire.
 
Is the notch really that big of an issue?
To me, yes. I like symmetry, the notch breaks symmetry.
You'll probably just get used to it after a while considering it sits in the menu bar, and I would expect that there will be a screen mode which allows the whole menu bar to shift down to its original position and put a black band around the notch to simulate the current bezels.
I never did with the iPhone and eventually replaced my iPhone with an Android phone because of it. Simulated bezels will be just as distracting as a notch that covers the whole top of the screen. i.e. it will look different than a bezel.
 
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