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First Intel Arrandale (MacBook Pro) Processors Due January 3rd?
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There is quite a lot here written like it was completely speculative.
There are quite a few things that can be considered fact, because of various official statements.
1. Larabee was not intended to end up in Notebook anytime soon, even if they hadn't canceled it.
2. Nvidia said, they retreat completely from the chipset market, which means they don't care anymore if they are allowed to make a chipset, they won't. There is no development. And AMD will also definitely not develop any intel chipset.
3. Intels new GPU can be switched between dedicated and itself. Thus all Apple has to do, so the 13" 3D Power doesn't go down, is add a dedicated CPU like an HD5330. They will probably do that.
4. According to some sources the new Intel GPU is quite decent. Not made for 3D games but with all the power you need for 2D stuff. With an added dedicated GPU I see no downside, as the Intel GPU should definitely improve Powerconsumption. After all the current Intel Chipsets consume less power than the 9400M Chipset. So if intel improves on that, the 7h MBP get with 9400M should go up too.
5. There is nothing comparable too the upcoming Arrendales. Apple will not ditch them or they loose all credibility as a highend offer.
Here my speculation starts
5. It would make no sense to upgrade the MacBook so soon, but I think they might want to upgrade the 13" too unless the Cooling system can't handly even a small dedicated GPU without going crazy.
6. I want an ATI HD 5xxx Card in the new models. HD5750 for the 15" and above, would put the current 9600M to shame.
7. I hope so much they stick to the current unibody and don't make a 16:9. 16:9 is okay on Desktop if the display is huge. A Notebook has to fit in a bag full of books and college blocks, thus it should resemble an A4 paper format, everything else is really inconvenient not just for working on the machine.
There are quite a few things that can be considered fact, because of various official statements.
1. Larabee was not intended to end up in Notebook anytime soon, even if they hadn't canceled it.
2. Nvidia said, they retreat completely from the chipset market, which means they don't care anymore if they are allowed to make a chipset, they won't. There is no development. And AMD will also definitely not develop any intel chipset.
3. Intels new GPU can be switched between dedicated and itself. Thus all Apple has to do, so the 13" 3D Power doesn't go down, is add a dedicated CPU like an HD5330. They will probably do that.
4. According to some sources the new Intel GPU is quite decent. Not made for 3D games but with all the power you need for 2D stuff. With an added dedicated GPU I see no downside, as the Intel GPU should definitely improve Powerconsumption. After all the current Intel Chipsets consume less power than the 9400M Chipset. So if intel improves on that, the 7h MBP get with 9400M should go up too.
5. There is nothing comparable too the upcoming Arrendales. Apple will not ditch them or they loose all credibility as a highend offer.
Here my speculation starts
5. It would make no sense to upgrade the MacBook so soon, but I think they might want to upgrade the 13" too unless the Cooling system can't handly even a small dedicated GPU without going crazy.
6. I want an ATI HD 5xxx Card in the new models. HD5750 for the 15" and above, would put the current 9600M to shame.
7. I hope so much they stick to the current unibody and don't make a 16:9. 16:9 is okay on Desktop if the display is huge. A Notebook has to fit in a bag full of books and college blocks, thus it should resemble an A4 paper format, everything else is really inconvenient not just for working on the machine.
It's funny how on both relative threads we have two users registered on December staunchly defending Intel. No wonder why they say Intel spends millions on web marketing.
If AMD was asked to make Apple an ATI based chipset an refused. They'd have to be crazy. You think that Intel and AMD are complete opposite sides of the coins. Fact is they couldn't exist without each other. AMD was created because of IBM's chip policy. AMD started out reverse engineering the technology, that would take too long so they signed an agreement. Then comes the 64-bit era, Intel is having trouble making a simultaneous 32-64bit processor. AMD had some sort of epiphany and blew that pants off Intel's solution. Now Intal and AMD are in a cross-licensing agreement. AMD for X86 in general, Intel for X86_64.
Not all users are represented here...
Not sure how much I am going to post here as I really try to stay off of the computer and net as much as possible, but here goes:
Until we get a new cheap, nearly disposable media like CD / DVD, the optical drives have to stay or at least be swappable like the old G3 was. Most people I know who are consumers really use the CD / DVD drive feature a lot. As a full time professional photographer ( not weddings or iStock ) I get images to my clients via CD / DVD about 40% of the time, the rest is FTP, You send it or a flash drive if I meet them in the office.
Personally, I can't believe we are still using oversized and archaic CD / DVD's but what can you do? I would rather see a much smaller type of media that might use a non-rotating mass type of system. So for now, I use the optical drive a lot and will continue to do so, it is still mainstream in terms of what I give and what my clients expect to get.
As for the SD card slot, yeah, they are kind of lame, I use CF cards. Now if I could get a nice 32 GB SD card that was fast enough to be a scratch disk, that would be awesome as I hate dragging peripherals around with me, especially on flights ( read closely: internal optical drive ).
But wait, there's more:
I have been reading this thread in trying to figure out if waiting to get a 13 would be a good idea or not. I did not wait, here are the reasons why.
I have sold my 15 inch 2.83 with 4GB of ram / 320 7200 rpm to get a 2.53 13 inch, 320 7200, 8GB ram. I am going to be on the road for an entire year doing a high profile photo documentary shooting film, I needed a smaller laptop for travel. The 13 is perfect for this, it's amazing just how many more places this thing fits in. It is a mature product with tons of power and decent storage. Some of my scans are up to 300MB a piece and this thing handles it fine, even with the so called "bad" graphics card. I don't have time to wait and see, I needed to get this now and I can write it off in 09. If Apple puts entirely new processors in the 13 in the next rev, it could prove buggy, I could have issues that I simply don't have time to deal with, might affect battery life, heat, remember, pro user here, not a gamer or tech-head. And I do have two other macs at home for massive tasks, including a quad core, raid and raptor rearing monster that does the "dirty" work.
I think I understand what people on here wan't, but I am seeing a pattern of wanting gear because you want it, like many of my hobby photo friends who want the next best piece of gear but could not shoot their way out of a paper bag with a bazooka.
I have had issues with Mac portables in the past, but not the unibody designs, they finally got it right in my mind. So the current line up is great for me, I feel no need to wait and no matter what comes out next, this rig will work for at least the next few years. I don't see my file sizes increasing, not even with my digital work, which I am getting out of since it has become such a gear headed, photoshop junk show.
So if you are a user like me, a pro or get to the point user that wants a fast computer so you can spend *less* time on it and actually have a life, then this post is for you. If you can wait, go for it, the prices of the current models with drop and the newer models will have improvements that you can deem valuable or not.
I will keep my eye on this only when I have time, which is not very often since I am usually outdoors, shooting photographs, climbing, skiing, all that stuff I do for a living and staying off of the dreaded computer as much as I can.
This is who Mac makes the computer for, those of us who have lives that exist outside of a computer, but we still need it to make a living or get things done like pay bills, check the weather, etc. Not trying to bash the tech fans here, but I think before you start saying things like get rid of the DVD drive, you need to get out of the room of doom and see who else is out there using these products and what we need too.
Have fun guys!
Shroomer
Not sure how much I am going to post here as I really try to stay off of the computer and net as much as possible, but here goes:
Until we get a new cheap, nearly disposable media like CD / DVD, the optical drives have to stay or at least be swappable like the old G3 was. Most people I know who are consumers really use the CD / DVD drive feature a lot. As a full time professional photographer ( not weddings or iStock ) I get images to my clients via CD / DVD about 40% of the time, the rest is FTP, You send it or a flash drive if I meet them in the office.
Personally, I can't believe we are still using oversized and archaic CD / DVD's but what can you do? I would rather see a much smaller type of media that might use a non-rotating mass type of system. So for now, I use the optical drive a lot and will continue to do so, it is still mainstream in terms of what I give and what my clients expect to get.
As for the SD card slot, yeah, they are kind of lame, I use CF cards. Now if I could get a nice 32 GB SD card that was fast enough to be a scratch disk, that would be awesome as I hate dragging peripherals around with me, especially on flights ( read closely: internal optical drive ).
But wait, there's more:
I have been reading this thread in trying to figure out if waiting to get a 13 would be a good idea or not. I did not wait, here are the reasons why.
I have sold my 15 inch 2.83 with 4GB of ram / 320 7200 rpm to get a 2.53 13 inch, 320 7200, 8GB ram. I am going to be on the road for an entire year doing a high profile photo documentary shooting film, I needed a smaller laptop for travel. The 13 is perfect for this, it's amazing just how many more places this thing fits in. It is a mature product with tons of power and decent storage. Some of my scans are up to 300MB a piece and this thing handles it fine, even with the so called "bad" graphics card. I don't have time to wait and see, I needed to get this now and I can write it off in 09. If Apple puts entirely new processors in the 13 in the next rev, it could prove buggy, I could have issues that I simply don't have time to deal with, might affect battery life, heat, remember, pro user here, not a gamer or tech-head. And I do have two other macs at home for massive tasks, including a quad core, raid and raptor rearing monster that does the "dirty" work.
I think I understand what people on here wan't, but I am seeing a pattern of wanting gear because you want it, like many of my hobby photo friends who want the next best piece of gear but could not shoot their way out of a paper bag with a bazooka.
I have had issues with Mac portables in the past, but not the unibody designs, they finally got it right in my mind. So the current line up is great for me, I feel no need to wait and no matter what comes out next, this rig will work for at least the next few years. I don't see my file sizes increasing, not even with my digital work, which I am getting out of since it has become such a gear headed, photoshop junk show.
So if you are a user like me, a pro or get to the point user that wants a fast computer so you can spend *less* time on it and actually have a life, then this post is for you. If you can wait, go for it, the prices of the current models with drop and the newer models will have improvements that you can deem valuable or not.
I will keep my eye on this only when I have time, which is not very often since I am usually outdoors, shooting photographs, climbing, skiing, all that stuff I do for a living and staying off of the dreaded computer as much as I can.
This is who Mac makes the computer for, those of us who have lives that exist outside of a computer, but we still need it to make a living or get things done like pay bills, check the weather, etc. Not trying to bash the tech fans here, but I think before you start saying things like get rid of the DVD drive, you need to get out of the room of doom and see who else is out there using these products and what we need too.
Have fun guys!
Shroomer
For every Voodoo 2 or Geforce 3 (features you MIGHT use sometime in the future when games catch up, remember Doom 3 demo?) there always would be something like ATI 9700 PRO or Voodoo 1, i.e. 'here and now' revolutionary card that would completely change the landscape of how people would play games and at which frame rates, overnight. By the time Voodoo Banshee or 9800 PRO rolled out, you pretty much had to have one to have a decent frame rate at then-modern games. Get a clue, please.
True, but Apple wouldn't ask that.
It is simple fact that AMD doesn't have the rights nor intends to create a Chipset for an Intel CPU and all current AMD CPUs are especially in the mobile Segment significantly worse than Intels.
@Macshroomer You are right. Most people should buy the notebook when they need it. The current one is almost flawless.
I also don't think there will be much of a performance gain on the CPU side, like some think. It should primarily give us better battery life and a new dedicated GPU for 15"+ and cheaper old models.
@applesupergeek I am definitely not defending Intel. I am just better informed than most here and stating the facts.
I don't even like Intel nor Apple as they are monopolistic companies that should not operate the way they do. I don't like the business philosophy of either company but you can't deny, that Intels mobile CPUs are simply unmatched and Apples Unibody is also really good for its intended purpose.
To specify more I like Apples MacBook Pro but not much besides that. After all it is a high quality Notebook that is not as expensive as if Dell would have tried to build the same, because Apple can still make a ton of profit with lower prices because of termendous economies of scale, which we get from all the Apple Fanboys who would never pay for quality if they would buy a Windows Notebook, but simply pick a cheap one and later complain that the drivers are crap.
This is incorrect, they are marginally worse by 10-15% by all accounts, maybe you define this as "significantly", but I don't. Plus they are manufactured on 45nm which makes them less heat efficient, as soon as amd transitions to 32nm they will be very comparable to intel. Plus what with the gpu taking a major focus in computing, with the better gpu platform ati I think amd will have the advantage. I am not saying amd at the moment is a viable solution for high end mobile cpus, but I am saying that provided they maintain their cash inflow they are not too far off to overcome intel soon, seeing as the igpu is becoming all the more important, and amd are drastically better there. As soon as the K10.5 becomes a reality this year in the mobile segment and hopefully at some point they transition it to 32nm too, consumers will have a great alternative to intel. I would also like apple to buy amd for sure.
In any case for someone who is merely very informed you are very staunchly supporting intel. Btw, I can't see any monopolising practises parallels between intel and apple. I don't know where you get that from... the business models are so different. Apple is not vending technology to others....and I don't see what your beef with technologies of scale is, the cost saving are transferred in part to the consumer, that's the whole point. The whole world runs on a economies of scale. I wouldn't prima facie dismiss such a discussion, but it will have to be on a purely theoretical economic basis at first.
Good points, the "dreaded computer" lol! It is like that a lot of times!
In 2011 AMDs Roadmap looks pretty good as with the "real" Fusion they might really get ahead of Intel, even if they probably still are half or 1 year behind in manufacturing. But now their CPUs don't have the problem of being too slow but that they just consume too much energy. AMDs mobil CPUs are faster than Intel ULV and thus fast enough for most people but they just don't offer comparable batterylife. That is why they are still doing okay on the desktop side but are pretty miserable on the mobile side.
I don't know why you think I am so "staunchly" defending Intel. I got a Desktop with AMD CPU and a long time they offered the better CPUs, which is why they gained a lot of market share in the server business where well informed people made buying decisions.
But in the mobile Roadmap right now they simply can't compete on anything but the price and thus there is no point discussing AMD for high end notebooks. This might change in the future, but now their Chipsets consume more and their CPUs. A better onboard GPU can't turn everything around.
Apple is trying to create their own market and then defending it against all competition. iTunes has a huge market share in online sales and they don't even let any other Mp3 player in than ipod. I could write 3 pages about why Apple has an extremely money focused business model, but to cut it short. Jobs is definitely a good business man but he is too much of a business man to be likable.
Apple is just a terrible control freak which is also reflected in their software designs. You either like it or not. It is not at all like Intel, Apple is more heading in the direction of Microsoft just worse and different but with the same idea of doing anything to generate as much monopolistic power in a specific market as possible. They might stick closer to the law but the anti-competition strategy is the same.
I don't know why you think I am so "staunchly" defending Intel. I got a Desktop with AMD CPU and a long time they offered the better CPUs, which is why they gained a lot of market share in the server business where well informed people made buying decisions.
But in the mobile Roadmap right now they simply can't compete on anything but the price and thus there is no point discussing AMD for high end notebooks. This might change in the future, but now their Chipsets consume more and their CPUs. A better onboard GPU can't turn everything around.
Apple is trying to create their own market and then defending it against all competition. iTunes has a huge market share in online sales and they don't even let any other Mp3 player in than ipod. I could write 3 pages about why Apple has an extremely money focused business model, but to cut it short. Jobs is definitely a good business man but he is too much of a business man to be likable.
Apple is just a terrible control freak which is also reflected in their software designs. You either like it or not. It is not at all like Intel, Apple is more heading in the direction of Microsoft just worse and different but with the same idea of doing anything to generate as much monopolistic power in a specific market as possible. They might stick closer to the law but the anti-competition strategy is the same.
Very interesting post, I would love to discuss this points over a beer or something since you are making a lot of sense in certain respects and I agree completely, but in others we differ, which is always the start of a nice discussion. Unfortunately a forum on the web leaves a lot to be desired for such a discussion so I am going to be brief.
I guess it's what we associate in our heads with whatever imaginary notion of good or intelligent we might have, and that is shaped a lot by temperament, and also a lot by experience. In that sense I concur that Steve is too much of a businessman to like, but I still like him, and I think the microsoft comparison is way unfair. I respect his control freak approach in product creation because there's too much tentative design in the tec world, and not enough normative design: how things should work, period. I have been very very happy with my switch to mac a few years ago, and I regret all those years I wasted on the ms platform. For a change I can get things done effectively and I use a platform which is aesthetically pleasing.
With time I have realised that this is not the product of a lot of software engineers kicking about ideas, but actually that of a lot of talented people doing the software side of things, and a few talented people, Jobs included, bringing it all together with a vision. As much as I appreciate the complexity of IT (I have a BSc in Computer Science), and the inherent difficulty with that, I am inclined from temperament to snob the actual computing part, and admire the effectiveness of the end product much more. And there apple is excellent in coming up with simple, effective and may I say visionary approaches in their solutions.
I gauge that you are suspicious when it comes to money focused approaches (I am too), but that's the way things work these days, but that doesn't mean you can't have a great product to sell in the process. You have to protect your continued growth, and that is what apple is doing, but they are not monopolising, they are building a superior platform and protecting it like hawks. They started from nothing in the mp3 market and dominated because of their intelligence, because they did come up with the most intuitive "media jukebox" as we used to call these things back in the day, they were clever enough to offer it for free while everyone was charging, and pair it with a great mp3 player and a great shop. They have continued to grow it with all sorts of intelligent things like itunesu, podcast integration, media sharing, no drm...this are simple ideas but it seems that all the other bozos working in IT missed out of their getting bogged down with detail and missing the big picture, you got to admire that. Why then shouldn't they protect that.
Why did it take ms so much to realise such a platform like itunes, because they lacked the vision, they were greedy with drm, they were greedy with ie, heck I have Gate's "visionary" book on the it world and they even envisioned the web as the msn web. And where are they now? They are associated, and rightly so, with everything backward, and vision free and people are hacking their laptops to be able to have os x....
In any case I have digressed here.
Why don't you think AMD will get the power management right as soon as they go 32nm? They still use K9, not even K10, in their mobile offerings with 45nm and they still have a decent tdp in their product. I am not so hot on cpu design so I don't know a lot of detail, but you seem to do, that's why I am asking. It seems that it's a matter of scale that they drop their thermal envelopes.
What new MBP in January?
Standard advice: "If you need a new computer now, buy it. If not, then wait." There's always something better coming in a few months.... Your December MBP won't stop working if there's an update in January (or Feb or Mar or Apr...).
Even if this rumour is right, and Intel announces a new CPU on January 3rd - there's no way to predict when it will be available in volume, and there's no way to predict when (or even if) Apple will use it.
Yeah, I bought mine a couple of months before they turned the Aluminium MacBook to the MacBook Pro 13 inch, which later became the best selling Apple computer. I have no problems with that but I'm amazed.
Mine still works.
This has to be the most asked question on MR in the past two or three months. If there were a clear answer there wouldn't be umpteen threads on the same issue. But nobody knows exactly when new Intel cpus will be released, nobody knows exactly when (or if) Apple will release new systems containing them, or what other features (like graphics processors) those systems might contain. Lastly, since we don't know what your needs are how could we give an answer to that at all?
Sorry I am not a native speaker. Is it my sentence structure that's troubling you or the commas.MorphingDragon said:
. I can write better English but it would just take too much time.@applesupergeek I agree with most of what you say.
What I don't like about Apple Software(not OSX but iTunes) is that it somewhat difficult or impossible to individualize or to something as simple as exchanging one app for an other.
I fear if Apple increases its market share you might end up being somewhat forced to use software you really hate, simply because that is the only way to get something else. I like my iphone, I just hate iTunes as an example, which is why I might dump it for an Android phone. It is really hard to do simple things with the iphone when it comes to PC-phone interaction. Sitting in the library, with only their Computer and you need some podcasts on the phone for studying. I never imagined it to be this difficult to get a simple podcast into your library. Safari on the phone can't download it and the stupid one doesn't take any music from a different itunes lib. There were even iMacs in the library.
AMD:
To sum current Architektures up. AMDs K10 was there first but it has A64 Cores. Nehalem is basicly a Multicore CPU which imitates AMDs K10 Architekture with the difference of using the Penryn Cores which are supiriour over the A64. They simply do more in less clocks and the higher clock speed have to be the more power you need (in general).
Intel has more and better Powersaving features in their processors. AMDs K10 could use more. They were first again with cool&quiet but Intel did it better. Cool&Quiet is still not perfect and it is also not enough as the initial Version is only equivalent to Intels C0 Idle Power State. AMDs mobile CPU are over C0 but do not have Arrendales C6 (completely shut off power to one core).
The second reason why AMDs mobile Platform could be better is that there Chipsets are not as powerefficient as Intels. They could do better but they don't. At least not now and this year that is unlikely to change.
Third AMDs 32nm comes 2011. 2011 AMD might very well be back in the mobile space but not now.
If you look at AMDs Notebook Roadmap, they might actually reach 7 hours on a 6 cell battery. I am just not convinced this will happen. Historically such road maps are often way too optimistic and without a significantly better Chipset and more Power optimization it seems unlikely.
The future isn't all dark. Since what we need is better GPU Power while a 2Ghz Dual Core is more than enough CPU Power for most people. AMDs Fusion might offer something Intel just can't offer. Larrabee seems to be quite uninteresting especially for mobile use. So Intel is at least 3 or 4 years away from building something similar as the planned APU form AMD.
This APU is also what AMD intended to build when they acquired ATI and this has taken long enough. Might be interesting when it is here, but till then Intel rules.
Actually we know when the CPUs will be released. The date is fixed for some weeks now. It is the CES in Las Vegas on the 7th of January. All kinds of notebooks will be release in the following days. When Apple releases the new models I don't know.
Sorry I am not a native speaker. Is it my sentence structure that's troubling you or the commas.
No, its the fact you obviously don't know what hypothetical means.
What ever did happen to Bob Drebin former CTO of AMD?
Could Apple be working on their own take on a SoC or more work on GPU?
Were Apple's hire this year and PASemi purely CPU, or coould the remit go beyond the iPhone to the tablet and MacBook lineup?
Could Apple be working on their own take on a SoC or more work on GPU?
Were Apple's hire this year and PASemi purely CPU, or coould the remit go beyond the iPhone to the tablet and MacBook lineup?
hey dusk007, thanks for the very enlightening post, you do know your cpus for sure.
Itunes can be a dog sometimes, and I too dislike the poor, or rather, the very controlled interface with the mac, may I suggest you download from the app store a paid app going by the name of air sharing pro, it really let's you very easily just tranfer anything to the iphone in folders so any media files will play and any doc files, well most document files, will be viewed, you just connect via ip or bonjour and done, it's great to just drop any file and folder there without bothering with the itunes structure. Plus you can print them from the iphone, email them etc. etc. and it also interfaces with idisk , ftp, webdav etc. servers. So it's pretty essential, well worth the $15 or so you pay for it, plus it gets updated regularly, ah it has a nice search feature too, an app lock (no encryption though), I think it will solve a lot of problems for you, if you haven't already downloaded it.
Itunes can be a dog sometimes, and I too dislike the poor, or rather, the very controlled interface with the mac, may I suggest you download from the app store a paid app going by the name of air sharing pro, it really let's you very easily just tranfer anything to the iphone in folders so any media files will play and any doc files, well most document files, will be viewed, you just connect via ip or bonjour and done, it's great to just drop any file and folder there without bothering with the itunes structure. Plus you can print them from the iphone, email them etc. etc. and it also interfaces with idisk , ftp, webdav etc. servers. So it's pretty essential, well worth the $15 or so you pay for it, plus it gets updated regularly, ah it has a nice search feature too, an app lock (no encryption though), I think it will solve a lot of problems for you, if you haven't already downloaded it.
It would surprise me.
too close to call
Not as close as at once thought - this just in: Apple ousts ASUS as most reliable in new study
I play a lot of games on my pc so I follow graphic card news pretty closely. If I remember correctly in the newest chipsets intel is able to do sli or crossfire
with out a an nvidia or amd chipsets. One of the big questions is can the x55/58 chipsets do hybrid sli like the nvidia chipsets if mixed with two different gpus.
A couple months ago I red somewhere that intel bought a company recently that allowed for a hybrid gpu system. If that's true they could be working on a new mobile chipset that would use the intel igp and an nvidia or ati gpu with no problem.
Maybe they are doing that? I wish they would hurry I really want to buy a new MacBook pro 15"!
with out a an nvidia or amd chipsets. One of the big questions is can the x55/58 chipsets do hybrid sli like the nvidia chipsets if mixed with two different gpus.
A couple months ago I red somewhere that intel bought a company recently that allowed for a hybrid gpu system. If that's true they could be working on a new mobile chipset that would use the intel igp and an nvidia or ati gpu with no problem.
Maybe they are doing that? I wish they would hurry I really want to buy a new MacBook pro 15"!
If you mean only the graphics-switching functions, then yeah the new Arrandale IGP can do that. But it can't do things like run in conjenction with another discrete card to boost performance.