Excellent point. I like seeing these counter arguments against Flash that actually make sense.
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Flash Soon to Hit the iPad?
- Thread starter LouieSamman
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Excellent point. I like seeing these counter arguments against Flash that actually make sense.
What I hate about not having flash is that many flash sites write apps instead of changing their website. Then the apps either cost money or are lacking in the features of the full website. For example, JustinTV, on the full site you can watch whatever you want at whatever quality you want for free. Yet I can't use the full site because I don't have flash. Instead JustinTV makes a $5 app and then charges you $60 a year subscription to get HD streams. Theres no way Im paying for the $5 app let alone the $60 subscription so that makes my iPad less functional then would be possible.
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_2_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8C148 Safari/6533.18.5)
If you want flash the solution is simple. Buy a phone or tablet with flash on it. The fact is that 90% of theuser don't care one way or the other. Including flash won't increase sales. I have heard no one say, "well I love the iPad but I'm buying a Zoom because it has flash". Ppl (except u apparently) don't care about flash.
I don't want it on here. What not having it does, is keeps me from see ads on regular websites. This is a major benefit.
If you want flash the solution is simple. Buy a phone or tablet with flash on it. The fact is that 90% of theuser don't care one way or the other. Including flash won't increase sales. I have heard no one say, "well I love the iPad but I'm buying a Zoom because it has flash". Ppl (except u apparently) don't care about flash.
I don't want it on here. What not having it does, is keeps me from see ads on regular websites. This is a major benefit.
Not that im particularly bothered about flash in my iPad 2 or iPhone 4, but must add that in my experience Flash 10.3 seems to work without any issues on my Samsung Galaxy S2 without 'crippling' it. Even 720p flash.
If you set Flash to "On Demand" you won't see ads, and anything Flash, unless you click on them; but you will have no way to block HTML5-based ads or plain old HTML/GIF ads.
You have to be kidding me, right?
Thirty million iPad owners need to let their devices' performance go in the toilet so that YOU can watch some guy in San Francisco sitting on his couch?
Every time Flash is brought up as a topic for debate, its adherents rant on about the vital "business" needs Flash alone can fill. But when we ask for an example, we get given stuff like that.
I'll trade MY ability to pick from 30,000 iPad-optimized Apps, over the ability to watch pirated porn; dancing hippos; and couch-surfing losers any day of the week.
How about you stop being so narrow minded and consider the ability to selectively choose whether or not flash is enabled. How would that make thirty million iPad's performance go down the toilet? Furthermore there are a lot more interesting events that are streamed through those sites than "couch-surfing losers".
It's really funny to see people posting that they don't want Flash as they don't want to see adverts messing up their screens.
Well, Einsteins, Just what do you think the marketing men will do "IF" Flash died and "IF" HTML5 took it's place.
Yes that's right, your web pages would be full of new HTML5 adverts.
Doh!
Well, Einsteins, Just what do you think the marketing men will do "IF" Flash died and "IF" HTML5 took it's place.
Yes that's right, your web pages would be full of new HTML5 adverts.
Doh!
Yes, advertisers will be scum no matter the medium. Side point: can you imagine being in an industry that produces product that people actively and energetically strive to AVOID? How depressing . . .
Flash will never be on the iPad because of what I said earlier, but also because of what Steve Jobs said at the time: Apple does not want to give control to some third-party company. Even if you had a switch to turn Flash on or off (which seems to be the party line nowadays among the Flash crowd), it would still give control to Adobe. Every time they updated the technology to enable some new goodies, Apple would depend on Adobe to make the update available to iPad (and iPhone) users. If Adobe was in a snit with Apple about something (hey, it's happened), they could delay the release. At that point it's Apple who would get flooded with complaints. It's just a potential mess that Apple does not want.
If Flash was going to be the only way to get things done in the future, Steve might have to give up that control. But Flash will be replaceable down the road, and Steve is walking down that road already.
Flash will never be on the iPad because of what I said earlier, but also because of what Steve Jobs said at the time: Apple does not want to give control to some third-party company. Even if you had a switch to turn Flash on or off (which seems to be the party line nowadays among the Flash crowd), it would still give control to Adobe. Every time they updated the technology to enable some new goodies, Apple would depend on Adobe to make the update available to iPad (and iPhone) users. If Adobe was in a snit with Apple about something (hey, it's happened), they could delay the release. At that point it's Apple who would get flooded with complaints. It's just a potential mess that Apple does not want.
If Flash was going to be the only way to get things done in the future, Steve might have to give up that control. But Flash will be replaceable down the road, and Steve is walking down that road already.
Not having Flash on my iPad is the one thing that's got me close to selling it. I go to a LOT of online radio stations and they ALL have Flash players and I can't listen. Probably another 20% of my browsing ends with hitting a site that iOS can't render due to flash elements.
At this point it's just a pissing match with Jobs and I'm the one suffering.
I keep thinking I paid all this god damn money for this thing and I still can't get to a large percentage of the web.
I wish apple would get the stick out of their ass and let ME make the decision to have flash on MY device.
At this point it's just a pissing match with Jobs and I'm the one suffering.
I keep thinking I paid all this god damn money for this thing and I still can't get to a large percentage of the web.
I wish apple would get the stick out of their ass and let ME make the decision to have flash on MY device.
You must remember one thing.
Flash will be around for many many years to come.
And, as terrible as it may sound Steve Jobs won't be.
Who knows what will happen in the next 5 or 10 years?
We many have quad core 3Ghz iPads that could run Flash without even breaking a sweat.
None of us know what the market will be like in 10 years time. Apple could have a massive crash and some other company takes their place as the "cool product to be seen with"
What is Netflix doing on the iPad then? That was one of the first iPad apps, and it may well be the most popular. That competes with iTunes.
Here's a little nugget for you about Flash vs. HTML5. Basically, you're saying that HTML5 is not at the level of Flash. I'll give you that, but HTML5 is not going to progress until it's used and made better. Adobe and Apple are both members of the standards committee that stewards the HTML5 standard. Adobe has been stalling the committee's work on HTML5. Google it. The reason is quite simple. HTML5 threatens Adobe's revenue stream from Flash.
I'm not denying that PART of the reason why Apple does not allow Flash is to protect the App Store. But I've got news for you. That's business. And if you want to vilify Apple for protecting its cash cow, do the same for Adobe.
Look at it this way. The web experience is a large part of what the user does with a smartphone. Most content is in Flash, a technology fully owned by Adobe. According to Apple, Adobe has a history of treating Apple like a second-class citizen. If you were in Apple's position, would you want to expose yourself to that possibility once again with something as crucial as the web? Also, Apple told Adobe that it would stop blocking Flash when Adobe could show them a version of Flash up to scratch. I think that what Adobe wants is for Apple to not block Flash in the interim while Adobe comes up with a good solution.
I agree that HTML5 needs work, but it has progressed quite a bit. A lot of that can be attributed to Apple's stance on Flash. Content providers don't want to lose the readership of iOS users. It needs to progress some more, but Apple allowing Flash is not going to help things at all. Why would content providers waste their energy on HTML5 when they already have content in Flash?
Also, a lot of people on this forum are saying it's nice to have the "choice" to use Flash if they want to. You have a choice. Buy another phone.
I agree that Flash will be around for many years; bad technology has a way of sticking around once it reaches a certain usage level. And yes, Steve won't be running Apple much longer, it seems. And yes, we have no way of knowing what the market would be like in 10 years.
But I doubt very much that any of Steve's top lieutenants has any intention of getting near Flash. I think Flash being off iOS devices is the status quo for at least the next few years. Performance issues are not the key objection to Apple.
Actually I think it's not up to Apple in a strange way, but instead up to all the other Tablet/Mobile device makers.
If Flash does not get well supported over the next few years on other devices, then it will only back up Apples decision and it will fade.
If on the other hand however, Adobe works with everyone else as best it can, and say in 3 or 4 years time we actually do have Flash running super slick on Android, Microsoft, And perhaps Blackberry and HP Palm tablets. Then Apple will really look to be seen as the odd one out, which may then cause them to come up with the statement that in their opinion Flash is now ready and improved enough to be supported.
So their hand will be forced.
If Adobe cannot improve it's code well enough to be excellent supported on other devices over the next few years then they may well have run out of time buy then.
The ball is in their court, and of course others who wish to help them.
My wife is always grabbing my MacBook because a site she needs won't work on her Ipad. It's a problem for some people. Her school email program uses flash. Weightwatchers website requires flash for it's online use for progress tracking. It's great that some of you don't need flash, or don't care that they can't access those sites. It still is a problem for some people.
It's in the Kool-aid. Steve says it's bad, so it's bad, end of argument and the thought process.
I think we need to get away from this idea that the iPad is supposed to do everything.
Its a fundamental principle of engineering that good design involves compromises. Build an airplane thats great at safely carrying a couple hundred people thousands of miles at a low fuel cost? Its unlikely its going to be able to do loops and Immelman turns. Fill in the blanks for other examples.
We also need to get away from this concept of "the whole Internet." Simply put, there is NO DEVICE that can do this. The BBC's iPlayer content isn't available if you aren't accessing it from inside the UK. Netflix is only available in the US. The archives of The New Yorker and The New York Times are only available to subscribers. Good luck trying to do a Google Search in Shenzhen or Shanghai. I HOPE nobody else can take a look at my banking records....
In other words, the Internet itself is comprised of a series of "walled gardens" whose content is only available to a select few.
In the case of Flash, Apple has made the determination that the COSTS of allowing Flash (ie. increased security vulnerabilities; performance and battery life issues; ceding platform control to an outside proprietary format) outweigh the Benefits: Access to a certain (albeit small) subset of Internet material. They are also betting that a) an increasing number of providers will provide the content in a non-Flash format; b) users will find some other way of viewing it; and c) Most people won't miss it anyway.
One of the things that has long impressed me about Apple is its holistic approach to computing. That indeed, overall experience is greater than the sum of its parts. That its better to risk the scorn of a few, in order to improve the experience of the many. And I think they've made the right call when it comes to Flash.
The thing I find most troubling about the Flash adherents is their utter arrogance. The fact that they seem to think that their inability to watch certain specific websites outweighs somehow the rest of our right to continue enjoy our iPads free from spam and viruses. Free from dead batteries and crashed web-browsers.
If your inability to watch morons on JustinTV or to access Weightwatchers via you iPad is so terrible, then here's a suggestion: Get another device. Use the PC thats probably sitting on your coffee table. Buy a Glaxoid 10.6 or whatever. But whining about iOS's lack of Flash is like moving to Miami Beach and complaining about the heat. You knew what you were getting into when you moved here.
Its a fundamental principle of engineering that good design involves compromises. Build an airplane thats great at safely carrying a couple hundred people thousands of miles at a low fuel cost? Its unlikely its going to be able to do loops and Immelman turns. Fill in the blanks for other examples.
We also need to get away from this concept of "the whole Internet." Simply put, there is NO DEVICE that can do this. The BBC's iPlayer content isn't available if you aren't accessing it from inside the UK. Netflix is only available in the US. The archives of The New Yorker and The New York Times are only available to subscribers. Good luck trying to do a Google Search in Shenzhen or Shanghai. I HOPE nobody else can take a look at my banking records....
In other words, the Internet itself is comprised of a series of "walled gardens" whose content is only available to a select few.
In the case of Flash, Apple has made the determination that the COSTS of allowing Flash (ie. increased security vulnerabilities; performance and battery life issues; ceding platform control to an outside proprietary format) outweigh the Benefits: Access to a certain (albeit small) subset of Internet material. They are also betting that a) an increasing number of providers will provide the content in a non-Flash format; b) users will find some other way of viewing it; and c) Most people won't miss it anyway.
One of the things that has long impressed me about Apple is its holistic approach to computing. That indeed, overall experience is greater than the sum of its parts. That its better to risk the scorn of a few, in order to improve the experience of the many. And I think they've made the right call when it comes to Flash.
The thing I find most troubling about the Flash adherents is their utter arrogance. The fact that they seem to think that their inability to watch certain specific websites outweighs somehow the rest of our right to continue enjoy our iPads free from spam and viruses. Free from dead batteries and crashed web-browsers.
If your inability to watch morons on JustinTV or to access Weightwatchers via you iPad is so terrible, then here's a suggestion: Get another device. Use the PC thats probably sitting on your coffee table. Buy a Glaxoid 10.6 or whatever. But whining about iOS's lack of Flash is like moving to Miami Beach and complaining about the heat. You knew what you were getting into when you moved here.
I take it BlindMellon missed all the posts in this thread and every Flash thread where people have different opinions on Flash, consider what other people say, and take the time to state their case, because he would have to actively ignore it to make up this whiny garbage that gets posted constantly.
EDIT: why does vrDrew even bother? Look at the caliber of discussion he's dealing with.
adobe already lost the battle and gave in, there working on a new flash player that would convert the flash to html if that devise isn't capable or doesn't run flash. they even demoed it on an ipad. so its basically a not crappy version of skyfire that works with every site. so this argument is irrelevant.
OP, your argument for why flash is coming is weaker than a 2 day old kitten. You might want to join your high school's debate club, for help on crafting a convincing argument. Also, a class on logic wouldn't hurt; there's a big chasm between using a button to take a picture and integrating software that has traditionally been buggy and draining for most Apple devices.
As for flash on ios 5, if it was going to happen, don't you think that it would've been mentioned by Jobs, Forstall or one of the many developers with the ios 5 beta?
As for flash on ios 5, if it was going to happen, don't you think that it would've been mentioned by Jobs, Forstall or one of the many developers with the ios 5 beta?