Flight Attendants Union Challenges FAA Decision Allowing Passengers to Use Electronics in All Phases of Flight

[theluggage]

IIf the tray table in front of you was open, you would smash into it, posssibly bisecting your chest.

Yup, that's why all passenger airliners have the rear-facing seats and full-body harnesses that might give passengers a gnat in hell's chance of surviving a 180mph crash long enough to fully appreciate the nice toasty fireball that followed.

Oh, wait, no, they don't - they've got farty little lap-belts who's only real safety effect at that speed is to maybe stop your broken body becoming a dangerous projectile.

NB: the last few times I've flown, its only been hand-held devices that you could use during take-off and landing - you're still not allowed to use laptops.

 

[manu chao]

Because you are directly influencing the health or well being of others around you. How does sitting in your seat listening to music impact anyone but you? And the answer isn't "well if the plane goes down," or "if there is an emergency..." your examples were directly impacting others. 'What if' scenarios do not.

The point is that any restrictions are borne out of the notion that engaging in those activities is potentially influencing others, otherwise there would be no reason to implement them.

Increasing a risk IS impacting others, why do think we have speed limits on roads? Speed limits are exactly there because of what-if scenarios. It's not the speed itself that is impacting others, it's the increased risk of accidents or the severity of accidents that speed limits are there to fight.

 

[britboyj]

Flight attendants just feel like they're losing some of their power because they can't be god for 12 minutes.

Get the **** over it.

 

[manu chao]

Its not disagreement. Its common sense. Everyone knows the old rules for using devices were unworkable and did nothing. Most people just put the device in the seat pocket and not in airplane mode until 10,000 feet (if they even did that). So the whole routine was a farce and actually took away from the authority of the flight attendants, because rules that are routinely ignored simply subvert the authority of those meant to enforce it.

So when the FAA, finally, gets around to changing it and everyone is happy (including many flight attendants), the association now files this bizarre lawsuit. Obviously the motivation can't actually be safety (I assume pilots and the FAA care about safety too and many other groups not in the lawsuit). So clearly, there is more going on here. Probably a cash infusion to settle or an agreement to include the association in any future rule discussion (or both). You really think the FAA is going to back-track on the rule now -- the genie is out of the bottle.

Since flight attendants no longer have to police mobile devices, many were happy with the change. So what do YOU attribute the motive of the lawsuit to be?

I am always amazed where people take that self-confidence from that their evaluation of risks is correct and that of others is not. None of us can know for sure the precise balance of risks but most of us are still convinced that they are right. People are wrong all the time, if not even most of the time but people still claim that anybody having a different opinion must be an idiot.

You can have an opinion but this arrogance of dismissing the possibility that one might not be right is the most galling part of it.

 

[scottw324]

Been flying for 25 years, hey? Good for you. I doubt you are a trained medical/first aid/emergency responder? Nerves of steel? Trained endless hours to respond exactly as you need to in a catastrophic situation? All your opinion indicates is that you've memorized 5 points and you can recite them. That's just SO reassuring when lives are on the line.

Emergency responder.......no. First Aid, yes. I've been in the military for almost 20 years and been through numerous situations where crisis/emergency management training and basic life saving skills have been used and came in handy. Nerves of steel........let me tell you something...listening to a flight attendants brief is going to do nothing to give you nerves of steel. The only way you know is for something to happen. One time you may be fine. The next, maybe not. A lot of things factor into that. Family, past experiences and trauma, etc... You either have it or you don't when the time comes.

Look I don't know you and you don't know me. I assume the closest you've come to a first responder type situation is watching ER or Blue Bloods on TV or maybe donating blood at a blood drive. So before you start getting all high and mighty about "trained medical/first aid/emergency responder? Nerves of steel? Trained endless hours to respond exactly as you need to in a catastrophic situation? " make sure you are willing to be that person or have that training and experience to deal with a situation, when it comes.

As for memorizing the points that they talk about........well......yep. Listening to it one more time isn't going to do me any more good than what my "experience" has taught me over the years. So let me go back to reading my kindle app on my iPad or whatever else I was doing while you sit there quietly with your hands in your lap listening intently to the same brief you've heard from day one of your flying experience. Maybe you will get something else out of it this time.

Let me know when you have something to back up your "nerves of steel" and "medical/first aid/emergency responder" prowess.

----------

Yup, that's why all passenger airliners have the rear-facing seats and full-body harnesses that might give passengers a gnat in hell's chance of surviving a 180mph crash long enough to fully appreciate the nice toasty fireball that followed.

Oh, wait, no, they don't - they've got farty little lap-belts who's only real safety effect at that speed is to maybe stop your broken body becoming a dangerous projectile.

NB: the last few times I've flown, its only been hand-held devices that you could use during take-off and landing - you're still not allowed to use laptops.

Same. Tablets, phones, music players, etc... but no full-up laptops. Last time I just took the keyboard portion of my Asus Transformer Win8.1 hybrid off and stowed it in the seat pocket. Then continued on watching my movie.

 

[jimbobb24]

I like when

Organizations remind us that they suck. Oh, I was wondering if unions still were anti-future rent seeking shrills. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[iSee]

Did we not need flight attendants before we had cell phones or did you think we didn't fly back then?

Wrong question. Here are some questions you could think about if you'd like to understand the situation better:

Why might there be less of a need for flight attendants than there was 10, 20, 30 years ago?
Why might there be more?
What forces are exerting pressure for fewer flight attendants?
What forces are exerting pressure for more flight attendants?
Fewer or more... which do you think is the stronger trend?

I think some of this stuff is pretty obvious if you think about it a little.

 

[JayLenochiniMac]

Wrong question. Here are some questions you could think about if you'd like to understand the situation better:

Why might there be less of a need for flight attendants than there was 10, 20, 30 years ago?
Why might there be more?
What forces are exerting pressure for fewer flight attendants?
What forces are exerting pressure for more flight attendants?
Fewer or more... which do you think is the stronger trend?

I think some of this stuff is pretty obvious if you think about it a little.

I agree with you regarding where the trend is heading. However, I don't buy their BS response and they're merely grasping at straws. I'd like to see the pilot union also protest the decision if it's truly a safety issue.

 

[BigInDallas]

Because you are directly influencing the health or well being of others around you. How does sitting in your seat listening to music impact anyone but you? And the answer isn't "well if the plane goes down," or "if there is an emergency..." your examples were directly impacting others. 'What if' scenarios do not.

Because its the rules.. Dont like them dont fly

 

[caesarp]

I am always amazed where people take that self-confidence from that their evaluation of risks is correct and that of others is not. None of us can know for sure the precise balance of risks but most of us are still convinced that they are right. People are wrong all the time, if not even most of the time but people still claim that anybody having a different opinion must be an idiot.

You can have an opinion but this arrogance of dismissing the possibility that one might not be right is the most galling part of it.

Is not my personal evaluation of the risks. The FAA and the airlines clearly had some input. The Flight Attendants aren't saying they are right about anything -- only that they were left out of the process. Hence, they are miffed.

 

[ozone]

Emergency responder.......no. First Aid, yes. I've been in the military for almost 20 years and been through numerous situations where crisis/emergency management training and basic life saving skills have been used and came in handy. Nerves of steel........let me tell you something...listening to a flight attendants brief is going to do nothing to give you nerves of steel. The only way you know is for something to happen. One time you may be fine. The next, maybe not. A lot of things factor into that. Family, past experiences and trauma, etc... You either have it or you don't when the time comes.

Look I don't know you and you don't know me. I assume the closest you've come to a first responder type situation is watching ER or Blue Bloods on TV or maybe donating blood at a blood drive. So before you start getting all high and mighty about "trained medical/first aid/emergency responder? Nerves of steel? Trained endless hours to respond exactly as you need to in a catastrophic situation? " make sure you are willing to be that person or have that training and experience to deal with a situation, when it comes.

As for memorizing the points that they talk about........well......yep. Listening to it one more time isn't going to do me any more good than what my "experience" has taught me over the years. So let me go back to reading my kindle app on my iPad or whatever else I was doing while you sit there quietly with your hands in your lap listening intently to the same brief you've heard from day one of your flying experience. Maybe you will get something else out of it this time.

Let me know when you have something to back up your "nerves of steel" and "medical/first aid/emergency responder" prowess.

----------



Same. Tablets, phones, music players, etc... but no full-up laptops. Last time I just took the keyboard portion of my Asus Transformer Win8.1 hybrid off and stowed it in the seat pocket. Then continued on watching my movie.

===========
I DON'T have extensive first aid experience nor rescue training, so that's why I DO listen to the safety briefing. Who said anything about a safety announcement that gives you heroic insight into emergency response? No one. That's the point of repetitive drills: you have military experience, so you would know that. Guess what? Most of us don't, so the safety announcement, though limited, is the best thing we've got. And I bet even those that do have emergency experience haven't spent endless hours trying to figure out the best way to evacuate 200 plus passengers of varying physical ability out of a smoke cabin with limited physical space through 6 narrow exits 30 feet above the ground.

Every time I visit an industrial facility or see what needs to be done in my lab, I PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT THE EXPERTS OR TRAINED RESPONDERS SAY. A few minutes of my time is worth it in case they do say something I've missed or if I haven't say, flown on a plane in a while, or if I'm in a new plane with different exit points or safety protocols. People don't even pay much attention to a bloody fire alarm when they're on the ground and have multiple exits - and they should; and they better pay more attention when you're in a metal canister attached to two large fuel tanks and ignition sources, moving faster than you can possibly run.

If you've been in military or rescue situations... great for you. But it's the attitude of "I can't possibly learn anymore... I want to do [whatever]... I know what to do all the time... blah blah blah" that is both selfish and annoying. Plus, I would figure that you, as somebody who might be able to respond far better than the average, would be pretty irritated - to say the least - at a fellow passenger who has no idea what to do because they were too self-absorbed in their e-book or mindless twitter feed, and are now impeding your ability to exit or help a fellow passenger in genuine distress.

You're right... you don't know me, and I don't know you. In fact, I don't know if anybody on the plane, other then the crew, has ANY TRAINING OR EXPERIENCE dealing with emergencies. So, for courtesy's sake and for common sense, I will listen to the 120 seconds of safety announcements, and I expect everybody else to do so as well.

p.s. No, I don't watch ER, or Blue Bloods, or whatever. I'm smart enough to know the difference between reality and fantasy. But I have taken first aid and other emergency training - I know I would be no expert and so I recognize my limitations.

 

[scottw324]

===========
I DON'T have extensive first aid experience nor rescue training, so that's why I DO listen to the safety briefing. Who said anything about a safety announcement that gives you heroic insight into emergency response? No one. That's the point of repetitive drills: you have military experience, so you would know that. Guess what? Most of us don't, so the safety announcement, though limited, is the best thing we've got. And I bet even those that do have emergency experience haven't spent endless hours trying to figure out the best way to evacuate 200 plus passengers of varying physical ability out of a smoke cabin with limited physical space through 6 narrow exits 30 feet above the ground.

Every time I visit an industrial facility or see what needs to be done in my lab, I PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT THE EXPERTS OR TRAINED RESPONDERS SAY. A few minutes of my time is worth it in case they do say something I've missed or if I haven't say, flown on a plane in a while, or if I'm in a new plane with different exit points or safety protocols. People don't even pay much attention to a bloody fire alarm when they're on the ground and have multiple exits - and they should; and they better pay more attention when you're in a metal canister attached to two large fuel tanks and ignition sources, moving faster than you can possibly run.

If you've been in military or rescue situations... great for you. But it's the attitude of "I can't possibly learn anymore... I want to do [whatever]... I know what to do all the time... blah blah blah" that is both selfish and annoying. Plus, I would figure that you, as somebody who might be able to respond far better than the average, would be pretty irritated - to say the least - at a fellow passenger who has no idea what to do because they were too self-absorbed in their e-book or mindless twitter feed, and are now impeding your ability to exit or help a fellow passenger in genuine distress.

You're right... you don't know me, and I don't know you. In fact, I don't know if anybody on the plane, other then the crew, has ANY TRAINING OR EXPERIENCE dealing with emergencies. So, for courtesy's sake and for common sense, I will listen to the 120 seconds of safety announcements, and I expect everybody else to do so as well.

p.s. No, I don't watch ER, or Blue Bloods, or whatever. I'm smart enough to know the difference between reality and fantasy. But I have taken first aid and other emergency training - I know I would be no expert and so I recognize my limitations.

Love the face. brings out the e-rage in you.

If you need to listen to the 120 seconds of talk, then good for you. Not saying you shouldn't. That is up to you. But for me it is a waste of time. Yes I understand the need for reinforcement, but there is only so much I can take before my time is being wasted. The other problem isn't that the 120 seconds is so long, hell if that is all I had to do was listen and then I was good, then great, but it is the flt attendants not wanting passengers to use these devices until FL10K. That is pointless. And good on you for listening to other safety briefs when you go to another location that you are not familiar with. Each location may have different requirements, different equipment that you are not familiar with. In that case I would pay attention as well.

Trust me. if something goes bad, you will know, headphones or not, Kindle App or not.

As for responding better in a crisis, sure. If someone gets in the way, there are ways to deal with that. In the end, it comes down to getting everyone out the door, or whatever exit there is, quickly and with the least amount of hysteria as possible. There will always be that person(s) that do not listen or do not do well during a crisis/emergency. That is where your training and experience comes into play. IF something new comes a long, I will be more than happy to give it the due attention it deserves.

 

[5684697]

Damn unions....let me listen to my music while taking off. I've heard the stupid safety speech about a million times....I could likely tell you exactly where the life-vests/rafts are located on every type of plane across American Airlines' entire fleet.....

Well, where are they? We're waiting...

 

[5684697]

1. Headphones don't interfere with crew briefings unless said headphones are thrown at the crew. People can *sleep* through said crew briefings, so the headphones are a moot point.

2. You have a confirmed, documented instance of this that you can point to? Somehow I doubt it. (The FAA couldn't find any such instances when it did the studies and research leading up to changing this rule.)

3. You're specially trained on Li-Ion battery fires because the normal response (throw some water/soda on the fire) doesn't work, and because they give off more smoke than most other non-catastrophic fires on board a plane. The fact that you're apparently *unaware* of this doesn't instill a lot of confidence in you or your training.

Among many other examples, the FAA just mandated the replCement of 14 million dollars worth of B737 cockpit displays due to wife and other interference, and several cargo aircraft have crashed with fatalities due to lipo batteries.

Headphones do interfere with the safety briefing, your premise is that no one pays attention anyway. Fortunately, the rest of aviation doesn't operate on this assumption. 90% of passengers will probably do the wrong thing in an emergency precisely because they don't pay attention and haven't thoight about what they need to do. A few clueless idiots can kill a lot of people by delaying evacuation.

 

[jrswizzle]

To be fair, I don't think you realize how confused the general public can be over small stuff.

Work retail sometime, you'll realize that even simple stuff can be confusing to many people.

That being said, maybe they should just ask people to put it down during the safety speech. Sure, some people might not, but those people wouldn't have been paying attention either way unless you actively went around telling them, "Pay attention". Then half the time they might end up arguing with you anyways about how, "I've seen this a million times" or "I'll do what I want to!"

I have worked retail. I get the collective idiocy of our population.

I still don't think its a huge deal. I agree with your second paragraph (which is what they do now). Just tell people to pay attention. That's all you're responsible for as a flight attendant anyhow.

 

[batchtaster]

In other countries, this is already a non-issue. Flew Melbourne to Brisbane and back again, and they made no fuss whatsoever about not having to turn off your device unless it doesn't support a Flight Mode. Otherwise, use it.

As already stated, a device's power state doesn't alter its usefulness as a projectile, or the passenger's attention - or lack of - to the announcements. And really, if you've ever flown anywhere ever, you know the safety drill about as well as your Miranda rights: seatbelt, life-jacket, air mask, exit doors, floor lighting, no smoking. It ain't rocket science, and it's not a "first aid" course nor "rescue training" either. And it basically amounts to "duck and cover."

Put your attitude back in your trolley, ladies.

 

[nsayer]

why do think we have speed limits on roads?

Speed limits were originally designed to be a curb on overzealous law enforcement.

The primary law of the road is that it is unlawful to drive faster than is safe for prevailing conditions.

This was fine until the local Podunk sheriff said that in his opinion, 5 mi/hr was the maximum "safe" speed. So the idea was that if there was a posted speed limit, then there was a presumption that traveling slower than that was safe, all things being equal.

This worked until that same Podunk sheriff hooked up with the department in charge of the signs.

By the way, no accident has ever been caused - or anyone ever injured or killed - solely due to exceeding a posted speed limit. Think about that.

 

[Botts85]

Yup, that's why all passenger airliners have the rear-facing seats and full-body harnesses that might give passengers a gnat in hell's chance of surviving a 180mph crash long enough to fully appreciate the nice toasty fireball that followed.

Oh, wait, no, they don't - they've got farty little lap-belts who's only real safety effect at that speed is to maybe stop your broken body becoming a dangerous projectile.

NB: the last few times I've flown, its only been hand-held devices that you could use during take-off and landing - you're still not allowed to use laptops.

UA says any device under 2 lbs can be used below FL10. AC says it must be a 1 handed device and as such prevented me from using my iPad.

 

[apolloa]

Good for you. Not everyone flys as much as you do.

You replied to this post which was a reply to someone else, NOT you.

How are they affected if I'm reading while the safety message is announced?

The above is your reply.

Sorry, you must have missed the context of the original message which the poster responded to. I'm a frequent flier. I've heard the message so many time I could be a FA. I know the lights lead to the nearest exit; that I should use the oxygen mask before administering to my child; that the seat cushion is a floatation device, etc, etc.

So again, please tell me (in context with The posters response to the original message) how me quietly reading affects anyone else on the plane?

If you can't I suggest getting off your high horse.

And thus this comment makes no sense, because you responded to someone who wasn't in effect talking to you. And I am not on any high horse, in a real life emergency situation you may not know what to do.. what if something changes in the presentation, a change in procedures to follow in an emergency, you won't have a clue about it, because you were too busy reading...
Thus making you a danger in an emergency... but lets hope you never find out who is right on this one

 

[anthony11]

This is so stupid. They don't want to allow electronics because they could become projectiles. Great. What about people who are allowed to carry babies on their lap, and regular books? I fly frequently and if they go back to not allowing iPads on takeoff and landing I'll be sure to unpack a full King James bible or a full unabridged dictionary to "read" on takeoff and landing, since technically they're legal.

Agreed. And I'll bet you few of them would rather deal with my ASD son melting down if his iOS device is taken away, as he's done almost every time he's flown. More than once an attendant has carefully looked away so he can stay calm.

 

[caesarp]

Flying waitresses will lose. Judge Harry Edwards told a union lawyer that "airlines have always had discretion on how to handle this".

http://www.latimes.com/business/tra...ndants-electronic-devices-20141010-story.html

FAA will win this one.

 

[Cyberius11]

In the UK you are given a seatbelt extension which fastens to your seat belt and then goes around your baby.

Here in the US the seatbelt extensions are for all the fat people.

 

[Aloft085]

Over the years, airline pilots have also reported multiple cases of autopilot and navigation interference that stopped when they made someone turn off their cell phone. You can check the NASA ASRS reports.

As a pilot myself, I don't trust that the pilots in question correctly diagnosed the problem. Pilots on average are superstitious, old fashioned, and resistant to change. Electronic interference can occur due to a nearly unlimited supply of possibilities, from cellphone towers, to space weather, to HAM radios.

It is entirely possible that an electronic device interfered with pilot electronics, but it is definitely unlikely. Electronic devices are by-and-large designed to operate on the same frequencies, at similar power settings. Only a truly unusual device would cause interference on a plane that had previously experienced none. Possible, yes, but unlikely. It is far more likely that the real interference that the pilot experienced would have gone away with or without his announcement to turn off electronic devices.

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I may not log as many hours as you, but I do accumulate over 1000 hours/year on a 747-SP.
1. books do not have headphones which interfere with crew briefings.
2. FACT: cell phones interfere with communication gear on the aircraft.
3. books do not contain Li-Ion batteries which can become a flammable/smoke hazard if damaged when some 5 yo drops it and is slides down the isle. Please explain to me, as a crew member, why I am specifically trained to combat a Li-Ion fire onboard an aircraft?

1. Books may not, but the passengers' noise-cancelling headphones sure do.

2. No, they do not. You may be able to find some rare occurrence of this happening, but it is extremely rare and easy for a pilot to deal with. All aircraft that are approved for electronic devices are thoroughly tested by the FAA. If you have concerns about interference, you should perhaps support more rigorous testing, not an outright ban.

3. Those same Lithium-Ion batteries are stored in the cargo compartment of your aircraft, in the passengers' luggage, where they are far more likely to experience the temperature and pressure changes necessary to cause a fire. It is unfortunate, but you're not going to get around the hazards of lithium-ion batteries. If one catches fire in the cabin, it's at least easy to deal with. Cover the damn thing up to deprive it of oxygen. If one catches fire in your cargo hold, you can only hope that you can reach a safe location to land before the fire gets too serious.

 

[tmarks11]

I just can't understand how it is so hard for somebody to stow away their gadgets for the first and last 10-15 minutes of the flight.

If you flew every week on business, you wouldn't feel the same way. That 15 minutes (sometimes 30-45 min when you ended up sitting on the taxiway forever) adds up into a ton of wasted time. Carting around paperback books and magazines is a PIA.

 

[Tiger8]

It's called a joke, man!

totally missed it