Paranoia about H1N1 is one issue. Misinformation about how flu vaccines work is another.
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Flu shots: Worthwhile or a waste of time?
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Paranoia about H1N1 is one issue. Misinformation about how flu vaccines work is another.
(I'm going to be blunt here, not just at Lee - because I usually find what he says to be good advice. But its a convenient place to refute some of what I consider to be myths. I'm not a health care professional, but I have a personal stake here. I've done a lot of reading, and I'm married to a professional researcher who is researching this for personal reasons as well.)
I don't think its paranoia, and the raw stats don't tell the whole story. a) This flu season has just started. So its 1000 deaths so far. Also, despite the flu season just starting already at least 95 children have been killed by H1N1, which is more than in a typical flu year (Today's Washington Post, link at bottom). Which leads to b) It's not just how many, its who. In a typical flu season, the majority of deaths are from people who are already very ill - especially the elderly. The H1N1 seems to be dangerous to the young (as in typical readers of MR) and people who have other health issues (but necessarily very ill). Poor people are being hit hard, people who have compromised immune systems (like if you are being treated for cancer) as well.
In a typical flu year, most people on this board probably won't know anyone who dies of flu, unless its their poor old granny in the nursing home. With H1N1 I personally know at least 3 people, including my wife who - if they catch the flu - are in the categories most likely to be hospitalized, and at risk of dying.
You can bet I'm going to be getting the shot.
As someone else has said, as well - its not just about you, its about the other people you may infect. Do you know anyone who is pregnant? Being treated for cancer? Has a compromised immune system? Diabetes? If so, are you going to quarantine yourself from them - or do they have to quarantine themselves from you?
Yes, but we also go to great lengths to minimize the risks, and don't just rely on our reflexes.
Today's Washington Post
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/10/24/AR2009102401061_2.html
Quoted for intense truth.
I AM a health care professional, and the only thing more depressing to me than seeing clients deliberately hurt themselves is seeing zealots spread malicious disinformation onto others.
The anti-vaccine thing cracks me up. But, then again, many things that are both popular or hyped crack me up also.
In the grand spectrum of "proof" insofar as science goes, vaccines are among the most solid. Read an immunology textbook. Read molecular biology. Read epidemiology. Oh wait, I'm too smart/lazy to do that? I'll just make YouTube videos for other paranoiacs to watch so we can fan the flames. It is those people who put others in danger. Some perspective on the matter would probably help.
Regarding the whole "but we have the flu every year and people die LOL" garbage, the principle problem with H1N1 in particular is the ferocity with which it appears to attack younger immunocompetent persons (Google 1918 Spanish Flu). Moreover, the bacterial pneumonias (many of which are multidrug resistant) occurring on top of these flu cases are particularly lethal. Many, many more fatalities will be complicated by nosocomial Strep pneumoniae cases, Klebsiella, MRSA, VRE, and C. difficile infections. Those people may wish they paid the 20 dollars to our black helicopter flying evil Federal Guvrn'ment to get the vaccine they R&D'd to save your ignorant carcass.
Anyone here gotten measles lately? How about pertussis? How about Rubeola, Tetanus, Typhoid, Yellow Fever, Diphtheria?
The most pervasive, insidious, destructive disease in our world is willfull ignorance. Unfortunately, there isn't a vaccine for that.
Exactly right. Even if you are a healthy adult in your prime, you more than likely come into contact with someone in a high-risk group (children, the elderly, someone with a chronic condition, etc). Getting the vaccine not only helps protect you against a handful of flu strains, it helps protect those around you as well.
No, you do not "carry" the virus. Your immune system retains a "memory" of the virus's protein structure and instructions on how to best combat that particular virus.
This makes the difference between recovering within hours of infection and potentially being hospitalized or being killed.
There's so much FUD there it's ridiculous.
Do you really posit that thousands upon millions of medical professionals worldwide get together to "stick" the flu on us every year?
Do you really believe that our flu survival rates today are the same as they were 200 years ago?
Isn't that all the more reason to wash your hands and not sneeze on people.
No, washing your hands and not sneezing or coughing on others is always its own "more reason."
Washing your hands thoroughly is the most effective way to limit transmission of many pathogens, but that doesn't mean it can prevent 100% of all cases. That's why flu shots are a good idea, because they can help protect against the strains that we believe may be the most prevalent in the upcoming year.
Incidentally, here's a good video on proper hand washing. I think everyone should watch it and keep it in mind for this (and every) flu season.
There is a lot of money to be made by flu shots. Oh, and they are completely safe.
For the sake of yourself and everyone you care about, please read a biology textbook ASAP.
You have greatly misstated and misunderstood how the immune system functions and why pathogens like the flu can be a danger.
Trouble is, Lee, we don't know where this flu is headed. H1N1 could turn out to be rather benign and we'll all go on with only a faint memory of it. On the other hand, it could become more deadly and we would have an epidemic on our hands.
A vaccine is a rather easy step to take (on the part of everyday citizens that is) and can offer great benefits to everyone.
There is only a very small downside to getting your flu shot (mostly being about 20 minutes and a slightly sore arm for a day for the normal flu shot), and a very large upside (protection against potentially deadly strains of flu, which can save your life, allow you to reserve your sick days for something else, prevent other people from getting sick, and overall just feeling better because getting even a mild flu isn't a picnic).
Now personally, I had never had a seasonal flu shot before this year. I haven't had a really strong flu in over 12 years, so I didn't really consider myself "at risk." I'm still fairly healthy and young, but I realized that I had no good reason not to get my seasonal flu shot. I'll mostly likely get the H1N1 vaccine when supplies are more abundant because just like the seasonal flu vaccine, there's virtually nothing to lose and so much potential gain.
So, no shots for mumps, polio, diphtheria, typhus, measles, hepatitis (A,B, or C), tetanus, chicken pox, small pox.... oh, wait - that's right - small pox was eradicated because enough people allowed themselves to be vaccinated throughout the 19th and 20th centuries.... pertussis, rubella, meningitis, rabies.......
I haven't been to the doctor for a good 13 years, Im not making a special trip just to get a flu shot when i am doing fine.
I'm in healthcare and get every vaccine that's available to me. For my own protection but more importantly for the protection of patients and the community.
I either get my GP to do it or staff health at the hospital. The only time I've needled myself is to take blood and to pierce my ears when I was in my teens
.
Are you kidding me? Are you ***** KIDDING ME?
This is the problem in a nutshell. There's morons like you spewing this nonsense, just loudly and assertively, so it sounds accurate to the layperson. Problem is you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and when Fox News echoes what you're saying it results in people not getting vaccinated for absolutely no reason.
Great work, really. I mean, I just wonder what went through your head before you pulled that post out of your ass. YOU obviously know that you have NO IDEA what you're talking about. YOU know you haven't taken the time to read up about vaccines or how the immune system works. YOU KNOW all of this about YOURSELF. So what goes through your head at the moment you decide to type up a response, based on absolutely nothing, where you claim to know what you are talking about? Please tell me, I really want to know.
I am hardly an anti-vaccine zealot (I've been even vaccinated for hepatitis A and B and meningitis), but I refuse to let my life be ruled by fear. This thing started last year and hasn't done a whole hell of a lot since then. I have serious doubts about the seriousness of this. I also do not trust the pharmaceutical industry. So pardon me if I take my chances.
As long as you've thought about the fact that you're endangering yourself and everyone around you, you're free to refuse the vaccine.
Noone will force you, but we will educate you!
Stop spreading guilt trips, its not going to work. Whats with everyone pushing drugs/injections on everyone all of a sudden? I didn't hear this last year.
It most definitely is a problem of a lack of scientific literacy. Which is why education is so important. Fox news has had at least one "infectious diseases expert doctor" on recently making some absolutely atrocious claims about vaccination, finishing up with him saying that he wouldn't vaccinate his kids because the risk is too great. For most people this would be absolutely frightening and a very persuasive argument against vaccination.
The backwards walking cheerleader in this thread is another good example of terrible scientific literacy. A correlation but no causation with the flu shot, however we've already got people in this thread citing it as a reason not to get vaccinated. When millions upon millions (if not billions) of vaccinations are given per year if it gave people serious neurological complications regularly it would be something we'd worry about (for instance the very rare GuillainBarré). One could easily find an example of someone getting the flu shot and in a week winning the lottery. However to claim the two are connected on a sensationalised current affair program would be insane.
In the end the absolute best course of action for everyone considering the vaccine (perhaps even more-so if they're considering not taking it) would seek advice from their doctor.
Well, Lee, I wasn't really aiming my commentary in your general direction, so no offense was meant. For what it's worth, your view on the subject seems more tempered by level-headedness than some of the things I'm reading here.
Fear is entirely separate from risk assessment. Risk assessment, in turn, is entirely different than common sense. It is common sense to wear a seat belt on the highway, because of the risks, but one does not necessarily "fear" getting into a horrific crash.
I do not "fear" the H1N1 any more than I want my patients to fear it. I do, however, encourage people to weigh the attendant risks and rewards from vaccination so as to make good decisions. I am asking them to consider the risks, not consider their fears exclusively. Does that make sense?
As has been pointed out numerous times, the biggest consideration with public vaccination programs is the concept of social responsibility to protect others through your own behavior and choices. I don't get vaccinated (or refuse to do so) for selfish reasons alone. I do it for others who may not get a choice based on my actions. Like it or not, many persons are at increased risk, and if I can take a small part of my time to lower their risks I will do so.
True, most people won't get sick. Most people don't get AIDS either. Nor do we have too many airline crashes, dams collapsing, terrorist attacks, or earthquakes. We do, however, protect ourselves sensibly against all of these things, as laxness in doing so may make the rare circumstance considerably worse when it happens. I mean, only about 11% of pregnancies actually take anyway, why wear a condom? Very few people in America have AIDS, why wear a condom for that either? Perhaps because the small token protection outweighs the massive harms incurred by not taking it.
I just can't follow the logic whatsoever on the anti-vaccine thing. It almost seems like the naysayer population of Americans (or anyone else) has run out of things to hate and complain about, so they pick new targets every once in awhile. Can't hate gays, blacks, Protestants, Chinese, people who wear green shirts, or women anymore. What else can we spread FUD and acidic misinformation about? I know, VACCINES! Yeah, that'll be good.
Does any of this BS benefit these people personally? It seems a little ego-gratifying more so than for the benefit of the people they supposedly "inform".
I'm done, as I'm now thoroughly depressed and a little ired. Just keep shoveling, even though the hole keeps filling in. Hopefully there's enough sane people shoveling with me.
That's because almost 5000 people around the world hadn't died from it. This isn't like catching a cold. The Spanish flu in the early part of last century killed many tens of millions of people around the world over a period of a couple of years or so. Why place yourself and others at risk?
36,000 died last year of the flu just in the US if my numbers are correct. H1N1 is going around the college, I am not worried.
And last year (and the year before that and the year before that) the regular flu shot has been recommended and indeed strongly recommended to people at high risk of having complications from the flu and/or caring for people at high risk of complications.
You aren't really comparing apples and apples here. Although it might end up that way, there are many reasons to worry about swine (and avian) influenza over regular seasonal influenza.
But the difference is, from my cursory reading, that this strain seems to be affecting some younger and healthier people. Anyone who has had proper flu before knows that its not worth messing around with.
The UK government is lining up 60 million shots for the entire population. The President of the United States has declared a national emergency. They don't do this on a whim.
So, guys here think they're healthy young men...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza_A_virus_subtype_H1N1
I've had a serious bout of flu before, it took about 6-8 weeks to fully regain my strength again... and I was in my 30s. I'll be seeing my GP later this week about some other things but I'll ask her about a shot at the same time.
What is your logic here? I really cannot figure it out. Are you saying that H1N1 is confined to college campuses? Are you saying that 36,000 is too small a number to worry you?
^^ Guillian Barre is very rare and even though I have a friend who spent six months in pseudo coma(locked in syndrome) I,ll still get a flu shot for the same reason I don,t bother buying lottery tickets that is I know the odds.
No the logic is that 36 000 die of seasonal influenza and he never worries about that. Therefore 5000 deaths from swine flu is no reason for him to worry.
On a superficial absolute numbers sense it's a somewhat logical argument. However it is ignoring the rate and character of the morbidity and mortality from the respective influenzas combined with the potential for swine flu to accelerate and have a far greater impact on society.