For all you Wi-Fi borrowers....

[0098386]

what is being stolen? [title]

Bandwidth, some ISP's have limits and charge when you go over or stop the connection altogether.

Speed. Obvious one.

well that's all I can think of but still. I wouldn't want someone stealing my connection. But what if you have an older router and haven't got as much security or none at all?

 

[unixfool]

From the routers I have set up in my time, they make it very clear about setting up security to protect your assets. So the ignorance excuse does not work. Again I will state that the law looks at things differently with hard property. I think most courts would be hard pressed with you placing an iMac on your lawn as to if I took it, whether you or I were wrong. The popular excuse of entrapment used against the police comes to mind.

For real answers, seek your lawyer. Supposition has no place in law. For one, comparing a real piece of property to something that radiates radio frequencies is a bit ludicrous.

Additionally, it's pretty easy to discern if someone intends to share their WAP...knock on their door and ask them if its purposely open. If you drive or walk around intentionally looking for WAPs to tap, you're technically savvy enough to know how to locate where the WAP is and ask the owner if its purposely open and if you can use it.

This isn't as vague, law-wise, as people seem to think it is. Just ask a lawyer about your local laws regarding this. Ask if its legal to use a WAP if its open, regardless of where its at. Ask if its legal to use the WAP even though it may not be the owner's intent for it to be open. If you don't have a lawyer, ask anyone that has experience in law and IT. Just because its there doesn't mean you can use/steal/borrow it...this goes for the physical world AND the abstract.

Not everything in life is free, although it may seem that way.

You might also want to remember that there are people out there that deploy fake open WAPs to phish. While you may not pay bills using credit cards when borrowing someone's WAP waves, you may be checking mail...it's simple as all hell to sniff mail account passwords these days if you're not using some type of encryption, as alot of clients send passwords in the clear unless you configure them to do otherwise. And mail is just the start of it.

I'm still trying to figure out why stealing other people's bandwidth is so trendy these days. It's the same as stealing cable, IMO. If you can't go to the WAP owner and ask for permission, you probably shouldn't be doing it. You can also ask yourself, if I drove by a law enforcement office with a laptop and noticed they had open wifi, would I assume its free because its open and use it to check my email? If your answer is 'no', you probably shouldn't be doing it to homeowners who have open WAPs.

 

[unixfool]

I mean what sort of neighbour would actually call the cops if you were borrowing their wi-fi.

I would. It's all in the intentions of the WAP owner. And there've been plenty of cases lately where people were charged and the charges actually stuck. To me, that's a good indication that legal systems are working to establish this 'borrowing' trend as theft or trespass, so if it hasn't happened in your locality yet, it probably will, given time.

Last week, I was fooling around with trying to create a second subnet with two routers and borked everything up. I had to reset my main gateway. I forgot to re-establish encryption and my WAP was open for a full week before I checked. The question is, did I intend to share? NO! I made a mistake by not re-establishing WEP. I consider myself technically savvy but also human, but that doesn't give people the right to capitalize on my mistake. Fortunately, I run Snort on my internal LAN and didn't see anything malicious...believe me, I would've known if someone was doing something they weren't supposed to.

 

[Goliath]

......
2) Unauthorized person uses your wireless access to upload and trade child porn. Who's computer is going to get seized and who's going to have to convince the cops that YOU weren't the person who did it.........

That's the argument that's always thrown around...some stranger downloading child porn on your wi-fi connection.

Such occurrences are rare at the very least- but the media/authorities always use this example to push for greater control of the information you access/send.

In the end it is the law abiding citizen that loses more of their freedoms.

 

[Goliath]

unless of course you are in the uk, in which case you could be arrested for listening to the 'wrong' music...

I Remember that story well- It reminded me of another story in UK press of some guy who was in a band and was discussing his upcoming live set with another band member. He was on his mobile and was basically quoting the lyrics to maybe a Clash or The Jam song I think (can't remember exact band)-making sure that they both knew the upcoming set.

Anyway his conversation was picked up by GCHQ. The next thing the guy knows his doorbell rings and he's greeted by Special Branch and hauled off to Police station for extensive questioning!

That was a few years ago and forced the Police and Government to admit that they automatically scan ALL phone, text messages, emails etc at the GCHQ listening post

BIG BROTHER'S WATCHING YOU!

 

[Belly-laughs]

When on the move I really appreciate other people´s open wifi`s. That´s why I keep mine open, for others to use. I don´t need all this bandwidth all the time for myself. Stealing? If they hijacked my line and denied me access, yes.

 

[BakedBeans]

There are some self righteous so and so's around here, you know.

Anyhow, I have my connection on WPA with a alphanumeric passcode, It's not that I would mind people using my connection to access the internet - I have no problem with that, it's hardly a big deal. What I do have a problem with is that it leaves my system more open that it would be without it, I don't want to risk people being able to see my files and the files of/about my clients.

 

[jaysmith]

in many cases, $250 is cheaper than buying a year's worth of high speed internet. still a bargain.

 

[Timepass]

in many cases, $250 is cheaper than buying a year's worth of high speed internet. still a bargain.

you forgot something. that 250 is the fine. that doesnt include the court fees (more than likely over another 100) plus the fees that have to be paid for by court supervision. (about 30-50 bucks a visit once a month at 12 months. that is at least 360) Add all that up and you are going to be paying over 600 buck in money. Plus a huge black mark on your record.



That being said it one thing to get on those open networks accedently it is another to keep abusing them all the time.

that being said yeah I have log on to open ones before to do some stuff at a friends house (who had broad band internet but no wireless access point but that not the point) I needed to log on to the net to get some stuff for class and used it. was it right more than likely not.

This is more of a degree thing. Are they really going to go after you if it a every now and then no. Now if you are doing it all the time it another story. They are going to get you for theft. Not theft from the guy who network you are using but theft from the cable/DSL company. To them it like a illegel line tap. You are stealing from them because they should be getting money from you every month that you are not paying them.

Yeah the person network should be lock down but it like the leaving you door unlock. Not smart to do and kind of stupid but the person breaking in is still breaking in illegelly.

That all being said yeah my wireless network is enquipted by WEP 128 bit mostly just ot keep people from gettting on it. Any hacker going to get on with out much of a problem but it makes them do some work for it. Yeah an the SIDDS is broad casted because it helpful for logging on to it but again you require the key and for friends who ask for it or come over I had them the flash drive and tell them to go to the txt file call Guys House (our wireless network name). Open it up and copy paste in that network key.

 

[dextertangocci]

The link doesn't work

 

[maxvamp]

A few comments:
1) There seems to be a big difference between jumping onto somebody's network from the sanctity of your own house vs. trolling neighborhoods with a wi-fi scanner and parking in front of a house.

2) My suspicion is the guy was acting as a stalker in front of a house and the police had nothing else to charge him with.

3) Do I have rights to not have somebody else's radio broadcast infringe on my property? If you send radio waves onto my property do I have a right to access it? Or can I force you to turn it off?

4) The radio frequency spectrum is regulated by the FCC. Thus certain rights have been granted/sold for TV, radio, Hams, CB, cell phones. WiFi is an unregulated spectrum, which is so many of us can use it without paying a broadcast fee to the FCC.

5) Most of the analogies don't seem to really apply.
a. The lawn watering is close. However, if I don't want the water on my property, the owner has an obligation to keep it off. (e.g. watering their lawn while my car is in my driveway. I would prefer it not get wet.)
b. Stealing of bandwidth? Doesn't that also apply everytime somebody from out of state uses the roads. (I paid my taxes for our state road system, and people with out of state plates are clogging it up without paying for it!!) Hmmm.

I'll think more about this later.

Well.....

In short, the infamous BetaMax cases that went in front of the Supreme Court basically came out and said that if you can receive the signal, it's yours to consume. The DCMA says you are not aloud to Hack AnyThing!!!

I think that legal arguments would be this...

If the WAP was open, then the access issues are the WAp owners issue with improper distribution of service. The user could be construed as in the clear since the signal was an open broadcast, and no hacking was required to use the signal.

However...

If the arrested hacked the password, or any system pass the transmitter, then his goose is cooked.

A close analogy might be Satellite transmissions.

DirecTV is encrypted; C & Ku Band has some ( few ) unencrypted signals. You can freely receive those, but not the encrypted or DirecTV signals without the owner’s knowledge and blessing.



Max.

 

[Dunepilot]

In my building, I offered to pay one of the other tenants £10 a month to use his wireless broadband a month or so ago. Since I did that, he's started offering it to other people as well, at that rate, and now I imagine it's more than covering his monthly fee (and we're all saving money as well). He provides the wireless repeaters so we can get decent coverage throughout the building (it's an old building with thick walls), and it looks like any surplus he makes will go into these so I'm fairly happy.

More people should take these collective approaches. British Telecom etc wouldn't like you, but my heart's not exactly bleeding about that. Everybody paying full rate for individual broadband lines seems excessive for domestic use.

 

[technicolor]

In my building, I offered to pay one of the other tenants £10 a month to use his wireless broadband a month or so ago. Since I did that, he's started offering it to other people as well, at that rate, and now I imagine it's more than covering his monthly fee (and we're all saving money as well). He provides the wireless repeaters so we can get decent coverage throughout the building (it's an old building with thick walls), and it looks like any surplus he makes will go into these so I'm fairly happy.

More people should take these collective approaches. British Telecom etc wouldn't like you, but my heart's not exactly bleeding about that. Everybody paying full rate for individual broadband lines seems excessive for domestic use.

Wow that is a really good idea.

I cant believe some are actually defending using other people's networks without permission, at least own up to what you are doing. Dont try to sugarcoat it.

 

[GFLPraxis]

Maybe. But a router has a processor and memory. For all intents and purposes, it is a computer system even if it is underpowered powered. Anytime you connect to the internet through that router, you are accessing someone else's computer. Where does the law draw the line? I really don't know.

However, your computer is simply making a request of that computer for internet access, and that router assigns your computer an IP address and lets it access the internet. You don't access any of the data on the router unless you try to get a routing table from it or try to access the admin page.

 

[it5five]

That's the argument that's always thrown around...some stranger downloading child porn on your wi-fi connection.

Such occurrences are rare at the very least- but the media/authorities always use this example to push for greater control of the information you access/send.

In the end it is the law abiding citizen that loses more of their freedoms.

That's ridiculous, because if you are stealing someone elses wireless connection, you aren't a law abiding citizen. It isn't the authorities pushing for greater control of information, it is the authorities punishing people that steal.

 

[maxvamp]

Wow that is a really good idea.

I cant believe some are actually defending using other people's networks without permission, at least own up to what you are doing. Dont try to sugarcoat it.

WOW... That is a really bad idea....

The problem here is that the legal agreement you generally have with your ISP is a single user / single household agreement.

To turn around and resell it, or broadcast it to the world, violates a contract you have made with your ISP.


One other thought... For those in the USA....

How many of you have written or called your favorite TV or radio station asking permission to receive their broadcast?

I know Brittan is a bit different in the form of a Color / B&W license.

Max.

 

[jaxstate]

I've never used anyone's Wi-Fi, but If I was on the road and came across a open Wi-Fi router, I would use it. How would one tell if the WAP is open for people to use (many resturants, copy places, coffee shops) have open Wi-Fi connections. I think if you don't even setup a password, your are saying, "go aheah". I had my Wi-Fi open for a while and let others used it, but I saw a few sites where some people where downloading kiddie porn on other peoples connection, so I put a stop to it. But if it's open, use it.

Now trying to work around someone's WAP/WEP password is just insane.

 

[technicolor]

WOW... That is a really bad idea....

The problem here is that the legal agreement you generally have with your ISP is a single user / single household agreement.

To turn around and resell it, or broadcast it to the world, violates a contract you have made with your ISP.

If you want to add your little "moral" spin to it.

But between the people who live in that building no one is leeching from another without their permission, and thats all I care about.

 

[maxvamp]

If you want to add your little "moral" spin to it.

But between the people who live in that building no one is leeching from another without their permission, and thats all I care about.

Not a Moral issue, a Legal issue ... Big difference.

Max.

 

[benthewraith]

I've never used anyone's Wi-Fi, but If I was on the road and came across a open Wi-Fi router, I would use it. How would one tell if the WAP is open for people to use (many resturants, copy places, coffee shops) have open Wi-Fi connections. I think if you don't even setup a password, your are saying, "go aheah". I had my Wi-Fi open for a while and let others used it, but I saw a few sites where some people where downloading kiddie porn on other peoples connection, so I put a stop to it. But if it's open, use it.

Now trying to work around someone's WAP/WEP password is just insane.

Another thing is....one could claim that Windows and Mac allowed that ability. Both of the Wireless configuration clients automatically connect to the strongest available open network. One could argue that if Windows/OS X thought it an available network to connect to, then they used the connection.

 

[technicolor]

Not a Moral issue, a Legal issue ... Big difference.

Max.

And either way I dont care, my great idea comment is not dependent on anything you said.

 

[unixfool]

Actually, I really don't care what others do with their WAPs. This thread is amongst the many that hash out whether its legal to steal wifi bandwidth. It's old.

I haven't learned anything at all in this thread. I shall start skipping the FUD threads.

Just worry about what you do in your own house and not what goes on in other households. Those who attempt to abuse what isn't quite regulated (call it grey area), be wary that you may end up going to jail if you get caught.

Really, this issue is as old as cable TV.

 

[Mechcozmo]

I borrow Wifi.

But I don't use up use gobs of bandwidth, nor do I try to crack into other people's computers. I like to 'feel' around the network sometimes to see what other devices are there, but there isn't a good reason to actually access someone's computer.

I don't see what is so wrong about checking email, browsing the web a bit, and IMing friends. Oh, most importantly: I don't go looking for the WiFi. If it is nearby and easy to use, then great. But I'm not going to drive around town to find it.

 

[Dunepilot]

Not a Moral issue, a Legal issue ... Big difference.

Max.

Morally, I'd say that it's worse for there to be 5 different people living in the same building, each arranging to have a company to install a phone line, paying for these phone lines individually (achieving nothing but making the shareholders richer) and each having to purchase duplicate hardware. That's stupid, and excessively wasteful of natural resources.

What we have is a decent collective approach, based on mutual trust. If you don't like it, maxvamp, I'm not going to be lying awake at night with worry, believe me.

 

[Boggle]

Winnebago County! Outstanding!