For Debate: Is Apple Using Steganography In iTunes Plus Songs?

[Porchland]

I just don't get all this DRM BS and other copy protection (And in this case all your account info encrypted in the music) when they have unprotected CD's at your local music store...

In 2007 is someone really that much more likely to share music they got from iTunes vs buying a CD?

This is ridiculous and this is why I will never buy a single song from iTunes...
All of my purchases are in the from of actual physical CD's...

I don't understand your complaint. Sounds like you're saying CDs are easier to trade illegally than iTunes tracks so you're sticking to CDs.

Is that about right?

We must draw the line here. Our right to privacy is worth much, much more than the right of some greedy, nosy company to check and see if we have somehow "misused" our property. And a music track IS our property - we paid a dear price for it.

These people who are more concerned about some company's profits than our right to privacy surrender to tyranny without a fight - in fact they wholeheartedly cooperate with it. They don't even recognize a right to privacy, else they might feel obliged to defend it. These are the kind of people who when asked to bend over, respond "Is this far enough?".

Ohhh, it's "privacy" and our "surrender to tyranny" to "nosy" companies. How exactly is your privacy at stake here unless you illegally pass a downloaded track?

DRM was bad because it restricted your use of the downloaded tracks until it didn't. Now watermarking is bad because of your privacy? Sounds like a sketchy argument to me.

First of all, even if the songs contained personalized information that wouldn't necessarily mean that it was personal information. The hidden information could just as easily be a random watermark or a hash of your account info. Only Apple could trace that to you and nobody else. And that is most certainly not a violation of privacy.

Second, so what if it did contain personal information? You are the only one receiving the file. Just treat it like anything else that contains personal information you don't want others to have. This might come as a surprise to you, but your wallet contains a lot more information that these songs would. And you take your wallet out of your house!

Well said.

 

[k2k koos]

Correct.

However, if Apple is using the technique and not notifying users in its terms of service, they could be opening themselves up to lawsuits.

yep, Lawsuits by people who are just greedy, and have nothing better to do. Sueing Apple over this, IF at all the case, is gaining what?? DRM free music, is not music you are allowed to copy for others to use, only for your own, so as long as you do not illegally distribute any music, you have nothing to worry about. So why bother sueing?? I agree that Apple should notify buyers that the files are watermarket against illegal activities, but if they didn't include that info, so what? It doesn't bother me in the slightest. but first lets find out if they really even did this, Mac rumors investigation seems to indicate otherwise...

 

[lemikam]

This might be as simple as a difference in album naming and track numbering. I grabbed only the promo track, didn't buy the whole album, and it lists the album as "Ooh La - Single of the Week" and the track number as 1 of 1. Did yours manage to get stamped that way, even though you bought the whole album? Maybe you just need to change those fields to match the rest?

It did come stamped as "Single of the Week" but...um...yeah, I chaged the album and track number tags! Didn't work. Wouldn't be very demonstrative if it had been that simple.

 

[iMeowbot]

It did come stamped as "Single of the Week" but...um...yeah, I chaged the album and track number tags! Didn't work. Wouldn't be very demonstrative if it had been that simple.

OK, just checking… you mentioned gutting the iTunes database and all kinds of other bizarre things, but not the obvious

 

[guzhogi]

Sorry if this is already mentioned, but I just got some of the new iTunes Plus songs and they end in .m4a, same as ones you ripped from a CD. However, in the info box, regular AAC tracks have "AAC audio file" as their kind while iTunes plus songs are "Purchased AAC audio file". Just found this interesting

 

[JeffDM]

On the 'Invasion of privacy' considerations - bullcrap - this is music for fecks sake - your not stood in a market in Marakesh attempting to buy the top secret plans of a military jet or something - It's just 'a digital copy' of a little piece of music!!..

Trust me when I tell you that Nobody is sat in a white van outside your apartment clandestinely listening to your music collection and making 'secret report's....

Have you paid any attention to *any* of the RIAA lawsuits? They will level lawsuits against people that couldn't have traded music.

 

[JeffDM]

I don't understand your complaint. Sounds like you're saying CDs are easier to trade illegally than iTunes tracks so you're sticking to CDs.

Is that about right?

I don't understand your argument, and I'm responding to it because it looks like a strawman fallacy.

Why would a person buy a CD to "share" if they can just download the tracks from somewhere?

 

[iMeowbot]

Why would a person buy a CD to "share" if they can just download the tracks from somewhere?

How do you think all those tracks get "somewhere" ? People rip the discs and put them out on P2P networks. This behavior is rewarded on those networks, for example people who upload more stuff can get better download times.

 

[JeffDM]

How do you think all those tracks get "somewhere" ? People rip the discs and put them out on P2P networks. This behavior is rewarded on those networks, for example people who upload more stuff can get better download times.

A CD only needs to be ripped once and millions can get it.

I bet you had a problem when Sony was tracking their music. Now, I know people objected to the method as well but a fair amount were angry Sony was tracking them in the first place.. interesting.. personally, i am not surprised music companies are doing things to prevent file sharing.. afterall, it is still illegal to download music without compensating the artist and the music companies.. however.. a lot of people were angry when sony was tracking their habits (although the majority of the anger was the method sony used)

Sony's method was far, far worse than this claimed threat was re: Apple. As I recall, the software repeatedly scans the computer for tracks, slowing down said computer. Their system was basically driving home how much Sony thinks of their *paying* customers: criminals.

 

[JeffDM]

And if those songs get up on a P2P program? Well, look at things realistically. You think the RIAA is going to come to your house and say "OMG YOU UPLOADED YOUR FILES TO P2P! WE GONNA SUE YOU!" Obviously if your iPod was STOLEN and you can prove it (you would file a police report for something that is worth a couple hundred dollars, right?) they're not going to be able to do anything to you.

Do police even bother with such a small change theft? How do you prove that it was stolen to the police? Maybe in a case where there was evidence of damage, then there is reasonable cause that something was stolen, but if a pickpocket got it with no damage, then what happens?

Heck, I lost an iPod, maybe it was stolen, maybe it's hidden in a crack in the sofa, maybe it's on the side of a road for someone to find, I really don't know, I certainly didn't try to report it.

 

[JeffDM]

As w/ many of you, I don't care they put your user name in there as long as Apple officially discloses that they do that. If they don't I won't be surprised to see lawsuits.

Personally, I have mixed feelings about DRM. I like how it tries to prevent people from stealing music, but the restrictions are stupid. For one thing, I had to get my motherboard replaced b/c it went bad. Before replacing it, it said I had 3 computers licensed. After it, it said I had 4. Also, I'd like to burn mix CDs for riding in my car. Sure, I can use my iPod and get an FM transmitter for it, but I hear those are awful. I just want to do whatever I want w/ my music.

First, you can reset your computer count in the iTunes store account management control panel.

Second, iTunes allows you to burn a CD of any playlist with protected tracks as many as seven times. When that seven is up, you can re-burn a playlist seven more times if you add one track of one minute to the playlist. In my opinion, that is very generous.

 

[iMeowbot]

A CD only needs to be ripped once and millions can get it.

That's nice, but not what really happens. The tracks do get reintroduced over and over because of that download ratio thing, and because the software positively encourages people to share all the stuff the already had.

 

[JeffDM]

That's nice, but not what really happens. The tracks do get reintroduced over and over because of that download ratio thing, and because the software positively encourages people to share all the stuff the already had.

Does the software distinguish a new file vs someone taking a file they just downloaded, turn around and offer it for sharing again?

 

[iMeowbot]

Does the software distinguish a new file vs someone taking a file they just downloaded, turn around and offer it for sharing again?

It's a volume volume volume game. New users are where new copies of material already in the network are most likely to come from, they haven't yet downloaded anything so they don't have any outside material to regurgitate (there is much user turnover).

Independently ripped copies of the same CD may or may not be identical. Different people use different compression software, errors on the CD can be reflected in the compressed results, different markets have slightly different versions of the CD, and so on.

 

[guzhogi]

First, you can reset your computer count in the iTunes store account management control panel.

True, but only after you used all 5 licenses and even then, you can do this only once a year. So far, I've had 2 Mac laptops (one iBook G3 I had a few years ago and now my current MBP) have their motherboards cr** out on me, not to mention a few Macs @ work. For my laptops, after I got the motherboards replaced on both, I couldn't deauthorize them before so my iTunes license count went up. I don't have my iBook anymore, but I still have my MBP. Working fine, just hate how my computer count went up and only being able to reset it once a year.

Second, iTunes allows you to burn a CD of any playlist with protected tracks as many as seven times. When that seven is up, you can re-burn a playlist seven more times if you add one track of one minute to the playlist. In my opinion, that is very generous.

I just tried that and it does burn audio CDs. Funny, when I tried in iTunes 6 or something, I got an error message when trying to burn audio CDs w/ protected music on it. Whatever. Thanks for the heads-up.

 

[Doctor Q]

Do police even bother with such a small change theft? How do you prove that it was stolen to the police? Maybe in a case where there was evidence of damage, then there is reasonable cause that something was stolen, but if a pickpocket got it with no damage, then what happens?

Heck, I lost an iPod, maybe it was stolen, maybe it's hidden in a crack in the sofa, maybe it's on the side of a road for someone to find, I really don't know, I certainly didn't try to report it.

The reason a police report is considered good evidence, even if it relies only on your word, is that you risk a lot if you make a false police report. That's why an insurance company will insist that you file a police report before handling a claim. It's also why the police end up handling a lot of extra claims, for which you and they know there is nothing to investigate and no chance of recovery of the stolen items.

 

[123]

It's a volume volume volume game. New users are where new copies of material already in the network are most likely to come from, they haven't yet downloaded anything so they don't have any outside material to regurgitate (there is much user turnover).

What p2p protocol are you talking about? There's only exactly one source track that is up- and downloaded many times.

Independently ripped copies of the same CD may or may not be identical. Different people use different compression software, errors on the CD can be reflected in the compressed results, different markets have slightly different versions of the CD, and so on.

This is the only reason for multiple versions of the same album. Better quality, different versions.

 

[bmb012]

'Oh noes Apple is doing anything whatsoever to discourage me from performing illegal activities! *whine whine whine*'

 

[iMeowbot]

What p2p protocol are you talking about? There's only exactly one source track that is up- and downloaded many times.

If that was true then pollution tactics would be impossible, and pirates wouldn't invest so many resources into compiling lists of "good" hashes, filtering proxies and so on. All these are employed because multiple instances do exist.

This is the only reason for multiple versions of the same album. Better quality, different versions.

P2P software is designed to spread liability. Fresh copies help that goal.

 

[123]

P2P software is designed to spread liability.

********.

 

[JeffDM]

True, but only after you used all 5 licenses and even then, you can do this only once a year.

I suppose you have a point there, but I didn't know about that. I have four machines on my account and no offer for a reset. A reset isn't needed until all five authorizations are filled though.

Really? I'd have to try that. Every time I've tried burning an audio CD w/ protected AACs, I get an error. Though I have burned them onto data CDs/DVDs for backup.

I didn't have any problem burning protected files to audio CD, officially they allow you seven burns. There may be something else wrong, but I don't know what. When I bought the U2 collection, I had burned an audio CD copy of each album and it worked fine.

 

[JeffDM]

'Oh noes Apple is doing anything whatsoever to discourage me from performing illegal activities! *whine whine whine*'

How many people actually bother reading any of these threads before posting straw man attacks and the like? People jumping to conclusions (on both sides) is certainly not contributing to any useful discussion.

 

[gnasher729]

Do police even bother with such a small change theft? How do you prove that it was stolen to the police? Maybe in a case where there was evidence of damage, then there is reasonable cause that something was stolen, but if a pickpocket got it with no damage, then what happens?

In Britain, the police will do nothing except filling out a form that says you have reported the iPod as stolen. You can then take that form to your home insurance and they'll have to pay for a new iPod. It will be assumed that you said the truth and have not committed insurance fraud and a few other offences.

 

[duffbeer703]

Copout excuse

If those who wish to do illegal deeds are going to be held accountable and this is the only way to do it, why not?

The argument "I'm innocent, so I have nothing to fear" is the arugment of a fool. Embedding your identity in music files is an invasion of your privacy, with the potential of subjecting you to criminal liability for things out of your control.

An iPod shuffle weighs like 6 oz and can easily be dropped, left in a hotel room, etc. Now when someone happens upon it (or steals it) and shares music online, the RIAA people will be suing you for infringement. The music industry has successfully sued or settled with thousands of people with minimal evidence.

Now losing your iPod could potentially turn into a life devastating event -- you can get kicked out of college, ruin your credit, lose your job or be forced to sell assets to cover your settlement with the music mafia.

 

[JeffDM]

In Britain, the police will do nothing except filling out a form that says you have reported the iPod as stolen. You can then take that form to your home insurance and they'll have to pay for a new iPod. It will be assumed that you said the truth and have not committed insurance fraud and a few other offences.

That's good to know, and thanks to the previous person that responded to this question too, I really didn't know. I really have little experience with police short of minor speeding infractions.