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For those that think Tethering shouldn't incur an additional fee....

Another analogy

I work for a company and we buy unlimited digital rights to use our photo on our company's website. After a month, we decide to remove it from our website and use it in our quarterly financial report which we publish to all our stockholders.

Applying logic of those using that it's their unlimited internet, they can do whatever they want with it - I would say "Hey - I'm still only using the photo in one place and I bought unlimited rights to use it"

The fact still remains... I bought unlimited rights to use the photo in a SPECIFIC manner. If I use it in another manner, then I am subject to pay for whatever fees THAT entails.

Sure - I can use it anyway and hope I don't get caught

But if I do get caught, I don't have a leg to stand on when I get hit with a bill from the photographer, sued or any other action.

When you signed your agreement with ATT, it did not include tethering. Just because the phone (and in my scenario, the photo) CAN easily be used in other ways does not give one permission to do so.
 
p.s. It's a similar issue that Kindle2 just had in a way. The software in the device now makes it possible for the books to be read aloud. But Amazon doesn't have performance rights to these books, they are paying for print versions.

Amazon's fix to avoid legal issues (after the device was released) was that an author can decide for themselves whether to block the function or not.
 
For those who are comparing tethering to the full blown data cards, there is a big difference in the two.

The data cards and plans get you a different APN. you get isp.cingular not wap.cingular. You also get the use of a real routable IP address. Items you don't get from your iPhone data plan.

Also, when you tether, there is still technically only one device connected to AT&T's network - the iPhone. Sure it may send and receive data on behalf of another device, but it's the device that's sending and receiving the data.

dt
 
samcraig said:
Another analogy

I work for a company and we buy unlimited digital rights to use our photo on our company's website. After a month, we decide to remove it from our website and use it in our quarterly financial report which we publish to all our stockholders.

Applying logic of those using that it's their unlimited internet, they can do whatever they want with it - I would say "Hey - I'm still only using the photo in one place and I bought unlimited rights to use it"

The fact still remains... I bought unlimited rights to use the photo in a SPECIFIC manner. If I use it in another manner, then I am subject to pay for whatever fees THAT entails.

Sure - I can use it anyway and hope I don't get caught

But if I do get caught, I don't have a leg to stand on when I get hit with a bill from the photographer, sued or any other action.

When you signed your agreement with ATT, it did not include tethering. Just because the phone (and in my scenario, the photo) CAN easily be used in other ways does not give one permission to do so.
Click to expand...

You are making the crux of all your analogies the fact that only one device (the iPhone itself) is permitted to use the iPhone data. I don't think AT&T agrees.

Do you think AT&T would rather you used 5 GB of data on your iPhone or 1 GB of data via tethering?

Clearly the issue is not which device is using their bandwidth, but that more bandwidth costs them more money. They are assuming you will blow past the limit on tethering, and want to preemptively charge you. But if you use tethering responsibly (3-4 GB per month of your 5 GB "unlimited") then they have no argument. None.
 
How is this still an issue? AT&T does not include tethering in their standard data packages for any phones. It costs extra. Verizon, and Sprint do the same thing from what I understand. And Verizon charges $40 a month for 250MB of transfer. So quit saying you deserve it, because the contract you signed says otherwise.
 
MBHockey said:
You are making the crux of all your analogies the fact that only one device (the iPhone itself) is permitted to use the iPhone data. I don't think AT&T agrees.
Click to expand...

No - I'm not. The "argument" from others is that it's their device and their unlimited plan so they should be able to use it however they want.

I am saying that their ONE device is entitled to their plan as stated in their agreement which does not include allowing other devices to use the data plan.

And ATT definitely agrees as proven by all other devices requiring a separate tethering plan.
 
MBHockey said:
You are making the crux of all your analogies the fact that only one device (the iPhone itself) is permitted to use the iPhone data. I don't think AT&T agrees.

Do you think AT&T would rather you used 5 GB of data on your iPhone or 1 GB of data via tethering?

Clearly the issue is not which device is using their bandwidth, but that more bandwidth costs them more money. They are assuming you will blow past the limit on tethering, and want to preemptively charge you. But if you use tethering responsibly (3-4 GB per month of your 5 GB "unlimited") then they have no argument. None.
Click to expand...

What samcraig says can be restated simply by this: The TOS dictates what you can do with any product you buy. If you don't like the TOS, then don't buy it. However, don't buy something and then complain that you want to do something that violates the TOS. because you think the TOS is too restrictive or whatever.
 
dagomike said:
Broadband cards most certainly do have a 5GB limit. Fail.
Click to expand...

I didn't even look it up because it seemed preposterous to me that someone would pay $60 a month for limited bandwidth. What a joke.

But I like your clearly very original "fail" retort. Did you make that up? I haven't seen it before.
 
samcraig said:
No - I'm not. The "argument" from others is that it's their device and their unlimited plan so they should be able to use it however they want.

I am saying that their ONE device is entitled to their plan as stated in their agreement which does not include allowing other devices to use the data plan.

And ATT definitely agrees as proven by all other devices requiring a separate tethering plan.
Click to expand...

So you are saying that AT&T's position is they would rather you use 5 GB of data over your iPhone than 1 GB of data with your iPhone tethered to a computer?

iphone.aggie said:
What samcraig says can be restated simply by this: The TOS dictates what you can do with any product you buy. If you don't like the TOS, then don't buy it. However, don't buy something and then complain that you want to do something that violates the TOS. because you think the TOS is too restrictive or whatever.
Click to expand...

I understand what he's saying. Yes, that is true. But that doesn't absolve AT&T of misrepresenting the TOS by calling the plan 'unlimited' when, apparently, it isn't.

It's naive and a cop out to say that people actually read the umpteen pages of legal jargon that is a telco contract prior to signing up. You go into a store, talk to a rep, they tell you it's unlimited and you buy it. I'm not saying the consumer is completely not at fault here -- you're right, we all did agree to the TOS when we signed the contract -- but that does not excuse AT&T for being so utterly disingenuous in its marketing and, even worse, what the reps tell you in the store.
 
MBHockey said:
I didn't even look it up because it seemed preposterous to me that someone would pay $60 a month for limited bandwidth. What a joke.

But I like your clearly very original "fail" retort. Did you make that up? I haven't seen it before.
Click to expand...

No, it just seemed fitting for someone who runs their mouth and can't be bothering to be informed.
 
dagomike said:
Broadband cards most certainly do have a 5GB limit. Fail.
Click to expand...
+1, they do. And Verizon even has a $40/mo package that is for 250MB of data transfer.
dagomike said:
No, it just seemed fitting for someone who runs their mouth and can't be bothering to be informed.
Click to expand...

+1 again. When someone tries to pass something else off as fact, why not do a quick google to verify what you are saying. Research before running your mouth.
 
MBHockey said:
So you are saying that AT&T's position is they would rather you use 5 GB of data over your iPhone than 1 GB of data with your iPhone tethered to a computer?



I understand what he's saying. Yes, that is true. But that doesn't absolve AT&T of misrepresenting the TOS by calling the plan 'unlimited' when, apparently, it isn't.

It's naive and a cop out to say that people actually read the umpteen pages of legal jargon that is a telco contract prior to signing up. You go into a store, talk to a rep, they tell you it's unlimited and you buy it. I'm not saying the consumer is completely not at fault here -- you're right, we all did agree to the TOS when we signed the contract -- but that does not excuse AT&T for being so utterly disingenuous in its marketing and, even worse, what the reps tell you in the store.
Click to expand...

Why do you think the plan is not "unlimited"? Have you even read the TOS? The part that you are referring to that is limited, which is the source of many misunderstandings about the iphone data plan, is the TOS for air cards. The iphone is unlimited by the TOS for the iPhone, unless you are saying it's not unlimited, because you can't use it for tethering or whatever you want.
 
samcraig said:
Cable companies charge when you want to put their services on another TV

I have unlimited access to my gym - that doesn't mean I can have someone go with my ID. Hey - it's still only ONE person at a time going to the gym.
Click to expand...

Cable companies can't really charge you for multiple TV's. Once the signal hits your house, you can split it off wherever you want in your residence. The same with telephone and the same with broadband. There may be some very unique capabilities that may require a decoder box or something that they charge you for, but the general service is not on a per-TV charge (usually it is a technical limitation, not one that is revenue driven). However, I think this is really comparing Apple and Orange (a little computer/cell phone humor there ;))

Broadband connections that are consistently "overused" (even if they are "unlimited") result in the Internet company moving users to a higher plan (usually the "business" plan). Cable doesn't fit the model at all, because the entire data stream is sent down the line. I don't think the "unlimited" residential long distance (or VOIP) plans carry overuse caveats, but they might, I'd have to go and read the contract. Clearly, AT&T or Vonage would probably not be happy if you had a 24x7 open line to Paris on your $24.95 plan. Nor would most consumers think that was an appropriate use of the "unlimited" plan.

On the other hand, the argument that you paid for an unlimited data plan isn't fully correct. I don't think that any of the plans are really "unlimited." If you read the fine print, if you routinely overuse, then AT&T has some options in charging you more. Also, the fine print of your contract may, or may not, allow you to take the data signal from your phone and "share" it with a laptop. The plan rate is based on a normal usage pattern. Tethering knocks that usage pattern out of whack. If AT&T simply had an additional fee for tethering, that would be fine. The only issue is that they really should have the same fee for all devices - Apple, Nokia, Motorola. The system usage plan should not be dependent on the device you are using, but rather on your type of use (2G/3G, smartphone, computer, tethered, etc.)
 
"So you are saying that AT&T's position is they would rather you use 5 GB of data over your iPhone than 1 GB of data with your iPhone tethered to a computer? "


The iphone plan is unlimited. Tethered is capped. And apparently ATT WOULD rather you download 5gb of data on the iphone vs 1gb tethered. But the reality is - if they opened tethering up - you'd be doing both. Using consumption on the iphone AND on your PC or other device(s).

You can't utorrent on the iphone - you can on a computer for example.

And those arguing that they, themselves, wouldn't be doing that and use it in moderation are missing the point. ATT can't "bank" on the responsibile ones. They have to assume everyone is going to go hog wild if they can tether and be happy if they don't. They can't under-estimate the usage - because that would be a huge FAIL.

Perhaps a huge restructuring IS needed. But I wouldn't expect that to happen. If ATT doesn't charge or charges less for the iphone tethering than every other phone which can tether - then they have to deal with all the blackberry, etc users who will be up in arms.

If they lower tethering across the board, they not only cut out a revenue stream but they also "encourage" those that didn't previously to tether. Now some may argue that it increases profit possibilities - but you have to believe they have bean counters playing out the scenario and it's a losing proposition for them or they would have done it.

In general - companies don't try and reduce revenue streams - they always seek to increase them. That's a significant way business GROW - and make their investors/stockholders happy.

People can get angry all they want - but the model exists pretty much everywhere in the US for cellular carriers. So as angry as people are - they don't have a real option other than to break the TOS and jailbreak their phones.

In which case, ATT can and would bill appropriately.

And I can just imagine the screaming on this message board when they get caught. The argument will be the same and they'll scream that ATT is !@#$%. When that happens - I'll have no sympathy for the person either. If you're going to knowingly break an agreement you have to accept the consequences. Period.
 
paduck said:
Cable companies can't really charge you for multiple TV's.
Click to expand...

They can and do charge you. It just so happens analog cable is still limping along where it's been no extra charges. Your subscription outlines how many converter boxes you can have and the addition charges for more.

That's irrelevant though because if you ask them "how many TV can I hook up?" before signing up, they will tell you. Their answer is part of your service. I mean, I don't expect my cable modem to work for free just because it uses the same outlet.
 
Dagomike -

Exactly. Now - with all practicality - will they charge you more? Perhaps not. If you speed on the highway, will you get caught even if you go right past a radar gun? Maybe not. That's not the point. The point is, if you are caught, you face whatever penalties arise.

But But But I didn't know.. or my neighbor has 18 tvs hooked up or everyone else tethers is not going to get anything but a laugh
 
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