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samcraig

macrumors P6
Original poster
Jun 22, 2009
16,786
41,983
USA
KSZ - you're backpeddling now.

You clearly stated that " AT&T has not announced its iPhone tethering policy. Period. "

As of today, this is their tethering policy"

ATT hasn't announced when they're going to send a duckbilled platypus to the 3rd moon of saturn either.
 

phalcon

macrumors newbie
Nov 10, 2008
16
0
NYC
"Putting something into a contract does not make it legally binding if what is in the contract can be shown to be contrary to law in court. Whether this could be shown to be legal or not, I cannot say. But it would seem that the use of the word "Unlimited" leaves a lot of room for interpretation."


That's irrelevant to the comment I was responding to.

KSZ asserts that tethering isn't covered in his agreement. It is. Clearly. As are several other inappropriate uses.

You can disagree with it until the cows come home - but as I said before - ATT has made it clear what you can and can't do before being liable for additional charges.

I think it is relevant. They can say "you can't tether this device to a computer", but if they're using the term "Unlimited" data...how far does the term "Unlimited" go? The definition AT&T uses for unlimited may not be the same definition the judiciary thinks the average user would use to define unlimited.
 

ksz

macrumors 68000
Oct 28, 2003
1,678
111
USA
KSZ asserts that tethering isn't covered in his agreement. It is. Clearly. As are several other inappropriate uses.

You can disagree with it until the cows come home - but as I said before - ATT has made it clear what you can and can't do before being liable for additional charges.
Wrong again. We're talking about a new policy to be announced soon. That policy will amend the existing one. If that policy had already been announced, we wouldn't be having this discussion. What's so hard to understand about this?

KSZ - you're backpeddling now.
Of course not. Go back and re-read this thread. How many times have I mentioned that we're talking about a future policy? It has nothing to do with a duckbilled platypus either because AT&T has stated that they are working on the new policy. They haven't said they're working on a duckbilled platypus policy, unless you're beginning to lose it!
 

samcraig

macrumors P6
Original poster
Jun 22, 2009
16,786
41,983
USA
Yes. They are clear. Is there a reading comprehension problem. They aren't limiting internet access on your iphone. They're saying that using your iphone as a conduit is not permitted. You have as much internet as you want ON the iphone.
 

phalcon

macrumors newbie
Nov 10, 2008
16
0
NYC
Yes. They are clear. Is there a reading comprehension problem. They aren't limiting internet access on your iphone. They're saying that using your iphone as a conduit is not permitted. You have as much internet as you want ON the iphone.

Still missing the point. When you start defining limits to something that is supposed to be Unlimited you get into a really large legal gray area. If I say you have unlimited access to a room and then start telling you you can only come in on days starting with "T" and only if you're wearing Adidas sneakers and only in the company of my security guard, would you still call that Unlimited?
 

samcraig

macrumors P6
Original poster
Jun 22, 2009
16,786
41,983
USA
I'm sorry. Are we?

We're talking about the principal of tethering and whether or not additional charges are appropriate.

People are maintaining that they shouldn't have to pay any additional fees because they already pay for unlimited internet and that tethering falls under that now, and should in the future

The fact is - tethering is not permitted under the current plan and in all reality, WILL incur some sort of fee to access.

The policy isn't going to change. The policy will no doubt stay the same. Ability and a billing procedure is going to be put in place.

If you don't pay whatever fee (and let's be real - they are going to charge SOMETHING) then tethering will still, as per their current policy - still be prohibited.
 

ksz

macrumors 68000
Oct 28, 2003
1,678
111
USA
You'd have to be able to define excess use. Maybe I have one computer with two network cards in it downloading every single Linux distro on the planet. There's no way for them to know. If I have my modem plugged into a computer acting as a router that does not hand off computer info to AT&T there is no way they can find out what is on my network short of illegal access to my network or breaking into my home.
I would think it's also technically feasible to mask the use of tethering. Some "jail broken" tethering apps might appear for this purpose.
 

diabolic

macrumors 68000
Jun 13, 2007
1,572
1
Austin, Texas
If that policy had already been announced, we wouldn't be having this discussion. What's so hard to understand about this?

Personally, I understand what your saying and why.

I just expect the new policy to be something like their current policy for tethering with other phones on AT&T, and I don't see any problem with them doing that.

I don't believe they'll change anything based on some iPhone users thinking it's unfair, especially since those that would tether will be a miniscule percentage of total iPhone users. And before someone uses that small percentage as a reason it should be included in the existing data plan, I actually think it's one of the reasons it won't be.
 

samcraig

macrumors P6
Original poster
Jun 22, 2009
16,786
41,983
USA
Still missing the point. When you start defining limits to something that is supposed to be Unlimited you get into a really large legal gray area. If I say you have unlimited access to a room and then start telling you you can only come in on days starting with "T" and only if you're wearing Adidas sneakers and only in the company of my security guard, would you still call that Unlimited?

They aren't changing the rules after the fact. It's apples and oranges. They set the parameters as per the agreement posted above when you bought the phone and set up service.

They aren't changing anything. A better example with your scenario would be that you are given unlimited access to use a party room at a restaurant ONLY during operating hours from 9am - 10pm. Now the restaurant decides to offer extended hours from 10pm to 3am. New people can pay for access to that room from 10pm -3am however the restaurant wants to set it up. It's not included in the original agreement. It fact, it's excluded.
 

phalcon

macrumors newbie
Nov 10, 2008
16
0
NYC
They aren't changing the rules after the fact. It's apples and oranges. They set the parameters as per the agreement posted above when you bought the phone and set up service.

They aren't changing anything. A better example with your scenario would be that you are given unlimited access to use a party room at a restaurant ONLY during operating hours from 9am - 10pm. Now the restaurant decides to offer extended hours from 10pm to 3am. New people can pay for access to that room from 10pm -3am however the restaurant wants to set it up. It's not included in the original agreement. It fact, it's excluded.

Your analogy is flawed because the access to the party room isn't unlimited. My whole argument is based on the fact that AT&T calls the data plan for the iPhone unlimited, but are clearly defining limits. Either they remove all limitations in the contract or call the data plan something other than unlimited. It's as simple as that.
 

ksz

macrumors 68000
Oct 28, 2003
1,678
111
USA
Your analogy is flawed because the access to the party room isn't unlimited. My whole argument is based on the fact that AT&T calls the data plan for the iPhone unlimited, but are clearly defining limits. Either they remove all limitations in the contract or call the data plan something other than unlimited. It's as simple as that.
Agreed. It would be more appropriate to call it unlimited within reason, where 'reasonable' is 5GB. But how many owners know this?

Personally, I understand what your saying and why.

I just expect the new policy to be something like their current policy for tethering with other phones on AT&T, and I don't see any problem with them doing that.

I don't believe they'll change anything based on some iPhone users thinking it's unfair, especially since those that would tether will be a miniscule percentage of total iPhone users. And before someone uses that small percentage as a reason it should be included in the existing data plan, I actually think it's one of the reasons it won't be.
That's a reasonable viewpoint. I hope AT&T is conducting focus group sessions to determine a fair tethering plan. I suspect at least Apple is providing some input.
 

samcraig

macrumors P6
Original poster
Jun 22, 2009
16,786
41,983
USA
it is unlimited. it's unlimited as long as they are open. Any time the restaurant is open - you can use the party room.

Do you mean because it's not 24/7? Unlimited can have more than one meaning then. As I see it - in the restaurant scenario - which you started, unlimited means whenever they are open as per the original agreement.

Whatever... this is going in circles.

Bottom line is - there should be no shock or outrage when ATT says they are going to charge for tethering. What they charge might be a sore spot and no doubt will be - but there are plenty of posters here who feel that they shouldn't be charged at all. Regardless of how they feel, the situation isn't unique. Are blackberry users up in arms about paying additional fees? And this is true of all providers here in the US. That's the bottom line with this thread.
 

NStocks

macrumors 68000
Apr 3, 2008
1,569
18
England
Ok stupid question, where is the internet tethering setting ?

I have gone to General > Network, it's not there :confused:

Do I need to install something else or enable a different setting ?
 

ksz

macrumors 68000
Oct 28, 2003
1,678
111
USA
Bottom line is - there should be no shock or outrage when ATT says they are going to charge for tethering. What they charge might be a sore spot and no doubt will be - but there are plenty of posters here who feel that they shouldn't be charged at all. Regardless of how they feel, the situation isn't unique. Are blackberry users up in arms about paying additional fees? And this is true of all providers here in the US. That's the bottom line with this thread.
You see, if AT&T wanted to perpetuate the status quo, they would not have hesitated from announcing a tethering plan that is 100% consistent with their Blackberries and other phones. But they have, in fact, hesitated, which hints at the possibility of a revision in the making. Maybe the revision will consist only of a small price reduction; maybe the revision will make it free up to a capped amount; or maybe at the end nothing will change. But the hesitation from AT&T does seem to indicate that they are thinking twice about it...
 

phalcon

macrumors newbie
Nov 10, 2008
16
0
NYC
Another things that comes to mind in the "Unlimited" debate is that even if you exclude to what device you are accessing the data from the equation, AT&T still limits the data. A good example is their not allowing SlingBox via 3G. This is a clearly defined limit of what you can do with your, so called, unlimited data connection. Even more onerous is that BB and other smartphone users are allowed to use SlingBox over 3G.
 

samcraig

macrumors P6
Original poster
Jun 22, 2009
16,786
41,983
USA
dagomike

I was just going to type that. Given all the activation issues and the strain on their networks as is with the launch of the 3gs - maybe they are delaying tethering to "normalize" the network before making tethering an option.
 

NStocks

macrumors 68000
Apr 3, 2008
1,569
18
England
You need to have the proper carrier setting. I don't know what England's would need.

Ok, thanks anyway.

Can someone on o2 in England on a pay monthly contract post your network setting to make sure I''ve got mine set up correctly please.

I've also been charged £0.80 extra for no reason :confused: Has anyone on a new contract had a additional charge ?

Cheers

Nstocks
 

ksz

macrumors 68000
Oct 28, 2003
1,678
111
USA
dagomike said:
I'd guess they're thinking about what all those tethered iPhone users will do to their network.
According to Research In Motion (RIM), a record number of Blackberries were sold in the most recent quarter, despite the iPhone. With tethering options already in place and with the realization that a larger percent of BB owners are likely to tether (because the BB demographic is more business-oriented than consumer-oriented), I don't necessarily think your statement above is what's holding them up. It may be part of the reason, but not the whole reason.

In other words, they already have a good idea what tethering does to their network.
 

samcraig

macrumors P6
Original poster
Jun 22, 2009
16,786
41,983
USA
KSZ

Business related tethering are relegated mostly to emails, power point and excel spreadsheets. Business users (typically) aren't the same usage as iPhone users. The BB also does far less via internet than the iPhone can. The immediate adoption rate isn't as fast either. The amount of iPhones sold on day one compated to Bold's sold on day 1 I am sure is VASTLY different.

That's why ATT can have a tethering option available immediately.

Also - BBs have been able to tether for a long time now - the plan is in place. So this time around, there was no need to create something new/change an existing service

This is the first iPhone to have official tethering

Apples and Oranges.
 

ksz

macrumors 68000
Oct 28, 2003
1,678
111
USA
^^^ I was expecting that reply.

So how do you propose AT&T will determine the impact of iPhone tethering without first activating iPhone tethering?

The BB also does far less via internet than the iPhone can.
Because of this, BB users are more likely to tether because their on-board internet browsers aren't as user-friendly. Also, how do you know that these users don't surf the net just like the rest of us? Their use of tethering may not be entirely restricted to emails and spreadsheets.
 

uberamd

macrumors 68030
May 26, 2009
2,785
2
Minnesota
Another things that comes to mind in the "Unlimited" debate is that even if you exclude to what device you are accessing the data from the equation, AT&T still limits the data. A good example is their not allowing SlingBox via 3G. This is a clearly defined limit of what you can do with your, so called, unlimited data connection. Even more onerous is that BB and other smartphone users are allowed to use SlingBox over 3G.
My internet hosts offers unlimited space and bandwidth. Is that realistic? No, there are physical limits to everything. For example their servers can only have so many hard drives, etc. But there is no set number in place and they deal with 'excessiveness' on a case by case basis.
^^^ I was expecting that reply.

So how do you propose AT&T will determine the impact of iPhone tethering without first activating iPhone tethering?
Being as people say the AT&T network is crippled already by data use, its obvious what tethering would do isn't it?
According to Research In Motion (RIM), a record number of Blackberries were sold in the most recent quarter, despite the iPhone.
Its not hard to sell a record number of devices when you see commercials that say "Buy 1 Blackberry for $50 and get up to 4 more free!", is it?
 

ksz

macrumors 68000
Oct 28, 2003
1,678
111
USA
Being as people say the AT&T network is crippled already by data use, its obvious what tethering would do isn't it?
Then fewer people will buy the plan thereby opening up bandwidth for others. If we're soft-capped today at 5GB per month, then it doesn't matter whether we use our alloted bandwidth on the phone or on a tethered computer. In some bandwidth-congested cities this problem is worse than in others. Here in San Jose the network is quite good.
 

samcraig

macrumors P6
Original poster
Jun 22, 2009
16,786
41,983
USA
"Also, how do you know that these users don't surf the net just like the rest of us? Their use of tethering may not be entirely restricted to emails and spreadsheets. "

How do I know? Demographics KSZ. Are you seriously going to tell me that blackberry business users and iPhone users are the same in demographics and total bandwidth usage?

Because if you're prepared to believe that, I have a few bridges I'd like to sell you
 
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