Former Intel Engineer Claims Buggy Skylake Chips Hastened Apple's Switch to Custom Silicon

[jjudson]

CPUs have effectively reached the peak necessary to run the apps most folks need. The real innovation now needs to be on the graphics card/chip side. It doesn’t do any good to reduce the footprint and heat factor of the main CPU if you’re just going to make up for it all on the GPU.

 

[marcushe]

lol what a small issue from five years ago to say "lets do it ourselves" and then likely cause thousands of other little issues and problems as a result. Not like the transition will go perfect - Apple has never made their own desktop chips. Intel has been making chips for decades.

The first Tesla Model S's in 2012 were groundbreaking for sure - but ended up having almost the whole cars replaced with revised parts in & out of warranties - because, you know, making cars is hard.

 

[leman]

On another note I hope they still use AMD graphics cards in some of their computers.

That is a good question. Apple GPUs use a completely different approach to rendering - they pre-sort geometry and draw in small rectangular tiles, which makes them very efficient. This approach is not new and so far nobody was able to bring it to the desktop. The thing is, the iPad Pro GPU is not that far off from the mainstream Nvidia and AMD cards (I am talking about dedicated GPUs here). If it scales - Apple could potentially have a very fast GPU on their hands that beats anything else 2-3 times in perf per watt metric.

As a formed 3D programmer enthusiast and a hobby game developer, I am kind of exited to have one of these tiled renderer GPUs on desktop. They enable some very advanced rendering techniques and can do stuff that a “traditional” forward renderer GPU can’t do efficiently.

 

[biffuz]

I had one of those Pentium with the FDIV bug...

 

[leman]

lol what a small issue from five years ago to say "lets do it ourselves" and then likely cause thousands of other little issues and problems as a result. Not like the transition will go perfect - Apple has never made their own desktop chips.

They have Had years of experience with mobile chips. The question is simply whether those will scale up to the higher thermal envelope offered by bigger machines. And I am sure that they already did all the testing, or they probably wouldn’t be as confident with this transition.

P.S. I mean, if they manage to run the A12 cores at 3.5 ghz in under total TDP of 30Watts, they will probably at least match any desktop (!!) CPU Intel is currently shipping. That should de enough for a 13” laptop.

 

[Makosuke]

I'd say it's hard to believe a company as old and established as Intel is shipping buggy CPUs, but then they've screwed up before, and if Boeing can forget how to both properly design and properly manufacture airplanes, Intel flubbing a CPU isn't a stretch.

My org had this exact experience on a vastly smaller scale: You're buying a product from a well-established vendor, then you start finding bugs in what's supposed to be a polished industrial device, and at some point you start thinking "I'll bet we could do better than this ourselves."

Then at some point, you come to the realization that not only could you, it just makes more sense to ditch them and go DIY. When you're Apple, that consists of ditching the best-known chipmaker on the planet for your own CPUs.

 

[maflynn]

The question is simply whether those will scale up to the higher thermal envelope offered by bigger machines.

No question, but people working at apple who are a lot smarter already were focusing on that topic and others. I really do trust that at this point they have all the major issues and hurdles addressed and resolved, otherwise they wouldn't have announced the shift. We're at a point where the engineers and executives are happy with what they have and its time to enter the next phase, rolling it out

 

[dannys1]

It's quite obvious it's the base level 13-inch MacBook Pro is going to be the first ARM machine - the one that didn't get refreshed last month, the 8th gen Intel one. Which is where about they are in the ARM power at the minute. Better than 8th Gen Intel 13" but probably not as good as the i7 in the higher spec MacBook Pro and no where near 16" or beyond just yet.

 

[jayducharme]

Well, I guess this explains a lot about the odd quirks in my 2018 Mac mini...

 

[Bandaman]

So why wouldn’t they just switch to AMD instead (who are just killing it right now)? Apple just wanted a walled garden for all their products, not just their phones.

 

[jayducharme]

So why wouldn’t they just switch to AMD instead (who are just killing it right now)? Apple just wanted a walled garden for all their products, not just their phones.

If they switched to AMD, they'd be in the same position they were with Intel, IBM and Motorola; Apple would have to wait for the other company to innovate. By controlling their own silicon (which could only have happened as Apple's fortunes grew), Apple will now be able to set their own roadmap for innovation.

 

[gnasher729]

P.S. I mean, if they manage to run the A12 cores at 3.5 ghz in under total TDP of 30Watts, they will probably at least match any desktop (!!) CPU Intel is currently shipping. That should de enough for a 13” laptop.

Rule of thumb is that power consumption grows with the square of the clock speed. A12 usually runs at 2.5GHz. 2.5 squared = 6.25, 3.5 squared = 12.25, so the same chip running at 3.5 GHz would take twice the power only. With 8 fast cores instead of 3, about 5 times the power.

But then if you have 8 cores and don't need all that power, you could run 8 cores at 1.3 GHz instead of 3 cores at 3.5 GHz for the same total speed, with much reduced power.

 

[ruka.snow]

So why wouldn’t they just switch to AMD instead (who are just killing it right now)? Apple just wanted a walled garden for all their products, not just their phones.

That would require just as much work(A lot of pro Mac apps crash on AMD CPU's). Apple would be more likely to buy AMD than work with them at any rate. If the biggest supplier of X86 chips in the world can't live up to Apple's expectations, why would they try one that is often a rounding error on Intel's bottom line?

 

[Bandaman]

If they switched to AMD, they'd be in the same position they were with Intel, IBM and Motorola; Apple would have to wait for the other company to innovate. By controlling their own silicon (which could only have happened as Apple's fortunes grew), Apple will now be able to set their own roadmap for innovation.

AMD has been doing nothing but innovating lately, and Apple only uses AMD graphics cards exclusively, so I don’t see what you mean.

 

[Henrar]

That is a good question. Apple GPUs use a completely different approach to rendering - they pre-sort geometry and draw in small rectangular tiles, which makes them very efficient. This approach is not new and so far nobody was able to bring it to the desktop. The thing is, the iPad Pro GPU is not that far off from the mainstream Nvidia and AMD cards (I am talking about dedicated GPUs here). If it scales - Apple could potentially have a very fast GPU on their hands that beats anything else 2-3 times in perf per watt metric.

As a formed 3D programmer enthusiast and a hobby game developer, I am kind of exited to have one of these tiled renderer GPUs on desktop. They enable some very advanced rendering techniques and can do stuff that a “traditional” forward renderer GPU can’t do efficiently.

Tile based rendering has been supported on the desktop since 900 series by Nvidia and since Vega series by AMD. It has already been brought to desktop.
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AMD has been doing nothing but innovating lately, and Apple only uses AMD graphics cards exclusively, so I don’t see what you mean.

Only in the CPU space. The GPUs have been lacking for years.

 

[jayducharme]

AMD has been doing nothing but innovating lately, and Apple only uses AMD graphics cards exclusively, so I don’t see what you mean.

There was a time when IBM was innovating, but that stopped. Intel was innovating for a while, then that stopped. AMD is innovating right now, but that too will eventually hit a wall. Apple has been at the mercy of three different chip manufacturers over its long existence and probably doesn't want to risk it again. By controlling its own processors, Apple will control its own destiny (for better or worse).

If it wanted to, Apple could probably buy AMD and absorb its tech. But I think Apple has a different vision of where they're going.

 

[chucker23n1]

Refresh my memory... which Macs use Skylake?

Depends.

If the engineer is just referring to the early chips with those problems, it's probably for the 2016 first generation of Touch Bar Mac Book Pros. This may have contributed to there being such a gap since the previous generation.

If the engineer is referring to any chips branded Skylake, that includes a lot more, such as the current Skylake-W iMac Pro.

And if they mean the Skylake microarchitecture, that's almost all current Macs: the only exceptions would be the 2020 MacBook Air and the 2020 13-inch MacBook Pro with four ports, which are Ice Lake / Sunny Cove.

 

[TiggrToo]

AMD has been doing nothing but innovating lately, and Apple only uses AMD graphics cards exclusively, so I don’t see what you mean.

Folk constantly complain that Macs have become stagnant. When your timetable is set by a third party, then that creates issues as you're now the tail that wags the dog.

Sure AMD are ahead today, but Apple don't look at today, they look at tomorrow, and if tomorrow looks anything like today then they will want to change it.

Welcome to the new tomorrow.

 

[dwsolberg]

There are a LOT of compelling reasons to switch, which is what makes this such a good decision. However, the transition will be expensive for Apple, so more wood for the fire is always going to be a driver.

 

[Woochoo]

Personally, I’ve just bought a MacBook Air for now. My thinking is that in 2 or 3 years, when the transition is complete and they’ve improved on the hardware over a couple of years. That’ll (potentially) be the time to buy into an ARM Mac.

Just out of curiosity, why not wait until ARM Macs are released? If a new machine right now wasn't a must for you, waiting would allow you to ponderate the decision and even if you were totally decided for an Intel MBA you could still go for it and find a discounted one as the new ones would be out already.

I'm asking as it seems many people will buy Intel Macs before the release out of fear and many of them may regret it if the ARM stuff performs great, or they could just get the same as they would now (x86 versions) but for less money. Buying now out of fear/prejudgement doesn't seem the best option

 

[rp2011]

I mean i tell everyone that the iPad Pro is the fastest computer I have ever used. Sure that has to do with the software, but honestly i find it frustrating whenever i use Safari or Youtube on my desktop computer. They feel amazing slow compared to the iPad Pro. Everything feels amazingly slow when you switch back and forth so i have avoided the desktop if I can possibly can.
So if they can scale up and do for the Mac what they did with the iPad Pro, everyone will know why people gush over the 2018/2020 iPad Pro.

 

[makarama]

At this week's WWDC, Apple confirmed its plan to switch from Intel to custom processors for its Macs over a two-year transition period. Apple said that the switch is all about platform consolidation and performance advantages, but at least one former Intel insider claims that quality control issues with Skylake chips was the reason Apple finally decided to to ditch Intel.

There have been rumors suggesting Apple has an interest in Arm-based Macs for years now, but it was only on Monday that Apple confirmed the plan, satying it expects its first Mac with custom silicon to launch by the end of 2020.

Apple analyst Ming-Chi Kuo believes that a redesigned iMac due in the fourth quarter of 2020 will be one of Apple's first two Mac models with a custom Arm-based processor, with the other being a future 13-inch MacBook Pro.

Following Apple's announcement about its switch to custom silicon, Intel said it will continue supporting the Mac through its transition, but insisted that its processors are still the best option for developers.

Article Link: Former Intel Engineer Claims Buggy Skylake Chips Hastened Apple's Switch to Custom Silicon

What about AMD 4 gen processors? Do these also have issues?

 

[DinkThifferent]

Just look at the keynote. The same A12z chip from the iPad Pro could run tomb raider smoothly at an unoptimised state, while an equivalent intel chip in a laptop would be running the same game at single-digit FPS.

What Apple silicon will likely offer is way better performance, at lower power consumption (longer battery life) while producing far less heat (which allows for thinner and lighter form factors, and better sustained performance).

It also gives Apple the freedom to customise the chip for whatever new feature they want to include in their laptops.

It's going to be better in every way.

Amen!

I am really glad that:
a) Apple is not going to rush this transition, but takes 2 years for it
b) Apple has promised to support Intel Macs for years to come.

Tim Cook realizes that this transition is, even though it looks the same, is very different from the Power PC to Intel switch. Remember, back in 2005 Apple was still 'Apple Computer Incorporated' with only computers and a fancy music player. iPhone what? iPad who? Didn't exist! Apple is exponentially larger than they were in 2005 (Apple stock price on May 31st 2005: $6,70!) and they know their user base has grown (and is in 2020 more than ever relying on their products) and the use of their products has shifted and broadened too.

Apple is obsessed with customer satisfaction, and they know that customers will blame them if their Macbook doesn't work, not Intel. And now that Intel has shown them that they can't deliver the state of the art chip Apple demands, it might reflect badly on Apple and that's for Cook (and the rest) unacceptable.

They can't screw this transition up. And they won't screw this up. Yes, there will be quirks and bugs but they will figure it out. Remember, Apple isn't run by a flown-in team of managers: the whole gang who is now in charge of Apple have been with the company for ages! Phil Schiller was around when they switched from PPC to Intel, Tim Cook was around etcetera.

If there's one company that can turn this fundamental change to one of its core products into a big success, it is Apple. And for us nerds its a great and exciting period that only just has begun!

Edit: What i forgot to say is, they A12Z is of course not the fastest processor Apple has up its sleeve! The iPhone 12 series will run on something even faster and more powerful! My bet is that that chip will be in the first consumer Apple Silicone product they are going to release later this year.

 

[makarama]

At this week's WWDC, Apple confirmed its plan to switch from Intel to custom processors for its Macs over a two-year transition period. Apple said that the switch is all about platform consolidation and performance advantages, but at least one former Intel insider claims that quality control issues with Skylake chips was the reason Apple finally decided to to ditch Intel.

There have been rumors suggesting Apple has an interest in Arm-based Macs for years now, but it was only on Monday that Apple confirmed the plan, satying it expects its first Mac with custom silicon to launch by the end of 2020.

Apple analyst Ming-Chi Kuo believes that a redesigned iMac due in the fourth quarter of 2020 will be one of Apple's first two Mac models with a custom Arm-based processor, with the other being a future 13-inch MacBook Pro.

Following Apple's announcement about its switch to custom silicon, Intel said it will continue supporting the Mac through its transition, but insisted that its processors are still the best option for developers.

Article Link: Former Intel Engineer Claims Buggy Skylake Chips Hastened Apple's Switch to Custom Silicon

The super bad cooling system in apple laptops has to do with both the fact that intel CPUs are generating a lot of heat, but also apple needs to improve their cooling engineering.

 

[Ma2k5]

so what does apple silicon guarantee, longer battery life? the speed of 10th gen is good enough for what i do. but if the apple silicon offers tremendous all day battery life i'm willing to wait.

Less heat/noise for the same performance is a big one. Laptops since Skylake across the board have become far hotter and noisier with the increase core counts and boost speeds.