Former Shake Product Designer: Apple Doesn't Care About Pro Market

[MagnusVonMagnum]

If I didn't know any better, I'd think at least 1,000 of those 10,000 had nothing better to do than post on these forums ... Perhaps people are misusing the "pro" qualification.

... as confirmed by a -14 rating and post #158.

I don't have a be a 'pro' (at least with video editing) to know your comment stinks.

I also don't have to be a pro to know putting an SD card reader on a 15" MBP instead of far more useful Express Card slot (and not just to pros) stinks. I don't have to be a pro to know that glossy screens greet me with reflections of everything around me instead of showing me just the screen I want to see. I don't have to be a pro to know that a computer company that prides itself on having the very latest Intel processors yet waits YEARS to add USB3 or Express Card 2.0 (on their last 'pro' notebook) isn't thinking much about anything but the headline grabbing numbers, leaving those that know what makes a top-notch computer to sigh and look elsewhere.

It also makes one wonder what's the point in adding Thunderbolt (clearly designed to do the most with high-end equipment) while doing nothing about or even removing the other pro features from Apple products? It's almost like Steve got excited about Light Peak for some reason and so there it is while mundane tasks like updating the bus to newer/faster standards or updating USB to the latest incarnation get overlooked and rejected when Apple should be doing ALL those things at the same time to stay on top of the game.

 

[Blu Reel]

As an FCP user since version 1 and as a Mac user since the Mac SE, here's my assessment and opinion of how Apple does business through the good the times and the bad times (it wasn't so long ago that everyone thought they would go under).

The success of Apple is based on one thing only - INNOVATION. When they hit upon a successful innovative product, they hit it out of the park. When they decide to go in a particular direction, they change everything and go in that direction.

Ancient computer history:
The Mac was in no way backwards compatible with the Apple LISA which was in no way backwards compatible with the Apple IIe.

Even in the Mac development years, Apple changed their OS and their CPU without any thought of backwards compatibility. They went from the Motorola 68000 processors to the PowerPC processors, from Mac OS 7 to System 8, etc. All without backwards compatibility, little to no advance warning of end-of-life, and no refunds, even if you bought the computer the day before the release of the new one.

So yes, that angered all the "professional" business owners with their multiple workstations, with their amortized budgets for capital equipment expenditures, with their large capital investment in hardware and software.

Fast forward a few years and boot Steve Jobs out of Apple:
Apple was in danger of going under. They became a bloated company with too many products that needed "hand-holding" customer service that all of us businesses who bought their products expected. Apple even went so far as to allow "clone" manufacturers make Apple knock-offs so they would be perceived as becoming more "industry standard." What was missing during this time of trying to emulate the rest of corporate America at that time? Innovation. What did they get for trying? nothing except a lot of people forecasting their doom.

The return of Steve:
The first thing that Steve did when he came back to Apple was to do what? Anyone want to hazard a guess? He established his vision of what made Apple great in the first place - Innovation. Remember the G3 processor? Remember the announcement for OS X? Remember what happened to all the Apple products that were not a part of this vision? Yes, that's right. They ALL got cut. No more shipping. No more parts. No more support. Anyone still have an operating Apple Laserwriter? Did that anger end users again? You bet. But given the choice of catering to the existing end-user base to the end -of-life for Apple or angering that same existing end-user base and saving the company from extinction, Steve chose the latter.

What made the PC revolution work was innovation. Faster CPUs every 6 months to a year, meant getting more work done. New software development made our work easier and faster.

So, how many computer companies that were innovating are still around?

And, how many other computer companies who developed superb support for their end-user base can you count that are no longer around? Where's Compaq? Where's NEC?

In fact, how many computer company mergers can you count?

Bigger question. Do we care? What are we concerned about mainly? Other businesses? or our own business?

The support dream:
Believe me when I say, I absolutely love companies that treat their clients/end-users with kid gloves and roll out the welcome mat. I love customer support that speaks my native tongue. I love customer support that I don't have to wait "x" minutes for the next available agent. And I love customer support that knows what I'm talking about when I don't know what I'm talking about and walks me through my dilemma.

Support has never driven new sales in all the tech companies that I've worked for. Anybody remember a laser printer company called Newgen? Support did NOT generate enough income to keep that company going. LACK of viable product innovation to keep it at the cutting edge of the laser printer market produced little sales which meant they had to cut down on the support staff.

So for all of you businesses out there, how do you pay for your customer support staff and workflow? By charging your existing clients for it? or by selling "new" product/service? Or...by eating the cost?

For all the "Pro" editors out there who feel betrayed by Apple "lack" of care for customer loyalty, welcome to the party. You're NOT the first and most likely NOT the last.

Retrospect:
Despite all my EOL hardware and software that I've accumulated over the years of the PC revolution both Mac and Windows, I have the least amount of regrets for all my Mac purchases. Why? Because I bought what was innovative at the time and feel good about that. I remember my Mac Classic. My PowerPC 7600. My G3 tower. And my 17" MacBook Pro. On the other hand, all my EOL PC stuff, which I researched and custom built with the latest CPU, motherboard chipset, video card, RAM, hard drives and optical drives, just gets tossed out like a broken toaster oven.

My Dream:
Do I wish that Apple will take a page or two from their success with their new consumer products and service and bring it over to their Pro Apps? Absolutely YES!

Do I think it'll happen overnight? nope.
Do I think it'll ever happen? Just have to wait and see...

 

[AidenShaw]

L o l !

Excellent parody!

(post-quoted, nothing more but the quote)

Apple buys Chrysler and immediately kills their entire product line, only to replace it with the all new Apple Car Pro X

The new Apple Car Pro X has the following features:

1. iStart: No more having to lug around a bunch of keys. The iStart is a green technology that replaces the wasteful starter motor with a completely new paradyme

2. Sleek new back end style: We've created a great new design that saves space and weight, plus it improves airflow over the back end of the car in a much more efficient manner.

3. All new driver UI: The all new steering system eliminates the ungainly steering wheel, while at the same time allowing the driver unprecedented freedom of movement.

4. iGas Station: Now your Apple Car Pro X can fill up automatically using your iTunes account at any iGas station. Gas is $.99 per gallon, $1.29 for hi-test. Plus oil changes and regular maintenance are accomplished automatically.
----------------------
Three days after launch, we find the grim realities:
1. They've replaced the keys and starter with an arm-breaking crank.
2. There's no trunk, and no means to attach a trailer hitch or roof rack.
3. They've replaced the steering wheel with a tiller. The "unprecedented" freedom of motion really means that the driver has to move around a lot to make room for the tiller to swing about.
4. No other fuel but iGas will work in the car, and it stops working if you don't agree to the terms of service.
5. If you want more than one person to use the car, you have to de-authorize it using your Apple ID and re-authorize it using the new person's Apple ID. This will result in any previously loaded iGas in the car immediately being dumped onto the ground, because it wasn't purchased with the new user's account.
6. All car sales are final, even if the car is smashed beyond recognition while it is being delivered to your home.

Apple's response: This is a great new car. Some people, especially high end users, have noticed some small issues. These issues affect only about 1% of our users, and Apple has heard their voices.

1. A few users have found issues with the iStart. We advise them to hold the iStart differently and let go as soon as the engine catches.
2. Some people have asked us if we plan to restore the storage space formerly found in the trunk. You can still move large objects. If you need to move something that won't fit into the passenger compartment, third party transit services from FedEx and UPS may be used.

Steve Job's terse email responses to user' emails:
"The trunk's gone, nobody uses them anymore anyway, so get over it."
"Hold the iStart correctly and you won;t break your arm."

 

[the vj]

Do you know what happen with Final Cut Pro X?

Apple tried to do the same thing they do with hardware.

When ever they are going to come up with a new line in the near future, they release a last revision of the actual line with all the bells and whistles. Then they release the new "fancy" line with new processor but actually less features.

One example I remember well, the Powerbook Pismo, it had 2 firewire ports, 2 USB, VGA, S-Video, audio i/o, swapable battery, PCMCI and a bunch of other stuff.

Then the 15" Titanium Powerbook came up, everybody went nuts, still the Pismo lasted for at least 4 more years around while the TI needed 3 revisions to be equally valuable.

The same with the Power Mac 9600 with dual 300MHz and 6 PCI ports, replaced for the G3.

Software is not hardware.


Apple wanted to play the same

 

[sdp]

FCPX is targeted to "Hollywood". It is not targeted to some parts, but there are elements (like audition ) that probably will get used on projects that are end-to-end digital recording and don't outsource to editing chop shops for the editing process. Similarly, for quick editing in the field to see if takes fit together at all or not. So not necessarily literally the "final cut" but some cut.

It is the folks closer to the set that may drop in a Mac because they use it much more than the folks in the back office/trailer/offsite that are doing the final cuts and polish to the video. You don't see folks watching movies/video on tape in shows do you? The "pros" are using tape; according to some.




There is some very high end digital camera support missing, but that can be added over time. Apple isn't necessarily going to write all of that integration software either. It is also easier to do now that the product is official (less onerous NDAs to sign ).

you have no idea what you're talking about. you are describing a world that you thinks exists in the way that you assume it must be.

 

[atomoboy]

I'm amazed by the post earlier...

"I'm tired of the 10% nascent market of "Pro" whiners.... Apple has people who use their products, that can create a great video with the tools they have.. thats called innovation and creativity."

Pro whiners? My (unsolicited) advice is to limit rebuttal on subjects you know something about. We aren't just moaning, we are making hard business decisions that affect our livelihood. It goes beyond fanboy crap. Apple products are a big part of my business and looking at the very real likelihood of having to retool to either adopt their inane view of workflow or invest in other tools isn't "pro whining".

If you're in business long enough, you'll fire a client. I've fired clients who we were losing money on. I get it, Apple is firing the pro community in favor of iPhones, iPads, etc. If I were them, I'd probably do the same thing but I hope I'd have the guts to do it in a more dignified manner.

As a high-end professional editor, effects designer and business owner, my complaint is that Apple doesn't have the balls to come out and say they are no longer interested in professional products. They don't. Instead they capture center stage at NAB with a product that they have to know is crap and tell the pro community that the new version of FCP is going to be amazing. The other theory is that they have drank the company koolaid so long that they believed their own marketing hype and really thought their product would blow away professionals.

Look, if you're not a editor who relies on Apple tools, sit quietly in the corner and stop criticizing the users affected by this titanic of a product launch.

 

[ChrisNM]

Apple doesn't care about pro users, yet their computers (and every other product) is overpriced....At least spec-wise

I have to respectfully disagree. You can't call something overpriced simply from a specification perspective - you have to look at the entire package.

I recently bought a Lenovo T520 that had the same specifications as a 15" MacBook Pro but was about $1,200 cheaper. When I got it, I was very disappointed. I never expected the quality to be as high as an Apple, but I didn't expect the quality to be so poor. There were dead pixels on the screen, the keyboard felt cheap, the removable battery was loose - just terrible.

So I returned it even though it meant paying a 15% restocking fee. I bought a 15" Macbook Pro and it is amazing. The screen is clear and sharp with no dead pixels, the keyboard is very comfortable to use, and the unibody construction is solid. And the operating system is fantastic. I even loaded Windows using boot camp to run Microsoft OneNote, Visio and Project. That was amazing too - Windows actually runs better on my MacBook Pro than any PC I have owned.

You can find cars cheaper than a BMW that have the same horsepower, acceleration, etc. - but they are still not a BMW. So for me, Apple products are not overpriced - they are simply the BMW of computers and worth every penny.

 

[slrandall]

I don't have a be a 'pro' (at least with video editing) to know your comment stinks.

I also don't have to be a pro to know putting an SD card reader on a 15" MBP instead of far more useful Express Card slot (and not just to pros) stinks. I don't have to be a pro to know that glossy screens greet me with reflections of everything around me instead of showing me just the screen I want to see. I don't have to be a pro to know that a computer company that prides itself on having the very latest Intel processors yet waits YEARS to add USB3 or Express Card 2.0 (on their last 'pro' notebook) isn't thinking much about anything but the headline grabbing numbers, leaving those that know what makes a top-notch computer to sigh and look elsewhere.

It also makes one wonder what's the point in adding Thunderbolt (clearly designed to do the most with high-end equipment) while doing nothing about or even removing the other pro features from Apple products? It's almost like Steve got excited about Light Peak for some reason and so there it is while mundane tasks like updating the bus to newer/faster standards or updating USB to the latest incarnation get overlooked and rejected when Apple should be doing ALL those things at the same time to stay on top of the game.

Haha, yes, I clearly upset some people. All I was saying was: "I think a few too many people are calling themselves 'pros' to give credence to their arguments."

But I do agree that Apple consistently and brutally pushes and advocates what they want, leaving old standards behind. In some cases this works, in others in hurts them. But overall, they've done pretty well. I REALLY hope that this isn't signaling an end to their high-end product lines [and I don't think it is], because that would just be sad.

 

[ChrisNM]

With the release of many variations of dslr and lenses, and high quality flash memory based videocams, not to mention future mobile devices, "film" making moved to the masses. Let Avid and Adobe pick up the legacy and custom editing market.

FCX is going to be ubiquitous, except possibly with broadcast, advertising and feature film markets. It will sell lots of hardware for Apple.

For the pro's commenting, I have a difficult time understanding what is to be gained by arguing your case on a generic mac forum. Sure, it's an available venue, but in reality, I can't see it moving your case forward. More to the point, most of us "amateurs" aren't choosing sides, and I personally find Apple's stance pragmatic.

But isn't that true for any comment - whatever your opinion may be on any particular topic, Apple is not going to change its strategy. This is a forum for people to share their thoughts and opinions and that is what they are doing.

 

[FPCPRO]

Give FCP X another shot.

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I found this article very interesting as I just now explored the new Final Cut. Decided against buying it because it seems like a souped up iMovie and not something that works well with other software for some intense editing.

Very interesting commentary by the man.

You obviously missed a lot in your trial. I've been using the FPC-X for about a week now, and although I miss a few of FCP 7's capabilities, I really like what apple as done with FPC-X.

Looking at the new FPC XML standard and APIs for FPC it is clear to me that Apple clearly put a lot of effort into creating a world class frame work for Final Cut Pro, something that was missing in past Final Cut APIs.
Based on the API I believe Apple has big things planed for Final Cut, the thing is, some of these "big plans" will come from Apple and Others from partnering with developers to create add ons that fill the gaps that Apple believes can be better addressed as a developer opportunity. This as always been the case with Final Cut, and in my view what makes Final Cut pro great. I think we'll more of this strategy in other pro products like Logic, OSX Server and Aperture.

I use to work for Avid, and I can tell you first hand, Avid's biggest drawback is that they try to develop everything in house; from the internal meridian boards and IO break-out boxes software features that are best left to a 3rd party developer.

 

[0098386]

Brilliant point:
If Apple are no longer in the Pro market, why do they have the Mac Pro (wouldn't Power Mac be a better name?) and Macbook Pro (PowerBook?).

Personally I think Apple are confused at where to go. They've got a successful lifestyle line, and a crumbling pro line and they're trying to keep both alive at the same time. They've had a killer hit with iOS and their consumer products, having that success after being dependent even to the point of highlighting successful media "Made on a Mac" they're just stuck in some transitional phase.

Successful companies adapt. Apple is adapting. But they're, personally, drifting from what attracted me in the first place. I'm happy switching to whatever OS is best for my needs (currently running Win7 and OSX).

 

[unknownart]

It was a very interesting read. But unless you are planning to be a professional editor, I don't think you'll run up against the limitations of FCP X.

arn

I've done a lot of extras work on film, tv and even film festival stuff. They ALL used FCP. You can't get more professional than multi-million dollar movies.
And all film students use FCP... rather, they *USED* FCP.

 

[Nostromo]

Brilliant point:
If Apple are no longer in the Pro market, why do they have the Mac Pro (wouldn't Power Mac be a better name?) and Macbook Pro (PowerBook?).

Personally I think Apple are confused at where to go. They've got a successful lifestyle line, and a crumbling pro line and they're trying to keep both alive at the same time. They've had a killer hit with iOS and their consumer products, having that success after being dependent even to the point of highlighting successful media "Made on a Mac" they're just stuck in some transitional phase.

Successful companies adapt. Apple is adapting. But they're, personally, drifting from what attracted me in the first place. I'm happy switching to whatever OS is best for my needs (currently running Win7 and OSX).

I don't think they are confused.

It's the typical way of technology to have high end usage for specialists only and then become - as a technology - mainstream. The "pro" part would then be providing quality content - not handling the technology.

It'll be much easier in the future to produce high end video. What will separate the cream from the crop will be the content, the story, the movie.

I think Apple has the best nose for these coming trends right now.

 

[bonehead]

You obviously missed a lot in your trial. I've been using the FPC-X for about a week now, and although I miss a few of FCP 7's capabilities, I really like what apple as done with FPC-X.

Looking at the new FPC XML standard and APIs for FPC it is clear to me that Apple clearly put a lot of effort into creating a world class frame work for Final Cut Pro, something that was missing in past Final Cut APIs.
Based on the API I believe Apple has big things planed for Final Cut, the thing is, some of these "big plans" will come from Apple and Others from partnering with developers to create add ons that fill the gaps that Apple believes can be better addressed as a developer opportunity. This as always been the case with Final Cut, and in my view what makes Final Cut pro great. I think we'll more of this strategy in other pro products like Logic, OSX Server and Aperture

I use to work for Avid, and I can tell you first hand, Avid's biggest drawback is that they try to develop everything in house; from the internal meridian boards and IO break-out boxes software features that are best left to a 3rd party developer.

This is an exact match of a reply you gave in another thread. Do you have these on hand?

 

[budgynana]

And all film students use FCP... rather, they *USED* FCP.

I have to respectfully disagree, at least in our institution. We've been historically an Avid institution and we were going to implement FCP as an additional app for our editing specialists but no way am I going to allow this now, at least in it's current beta state.

 

[ender21]

Give the whining Adobe bots their day in the sun. What will be really fun is to come back here in 1 year when FCPX has been through the same cycle we all know so well.

Like Shake, Color, DVD Studio Pro, XServe, Final Cut Server? Here's a good read, but be warned, it's from the whiners.

Different people with different experiences see different sides of the same coin. Doesn't mean everyone whose opinion differs from yours is a "whiner" necessitating some 3rd grade can't-wait-to-say-i-told-you-so.

And by the way, if many of the changes Pros are requesting DO come to pass? I'm sure it'll be due in no small part to the fact that they complained in the first place. If criticism never existed, there would never be any reason to improve.

 

[SteveW928]

That's what made Final Cut Pro what it is today. It was the program for the rest of us who couldn't afford a megabuck Avid system.

I was just on the periphery of that transition (did some work in 3D animation). My view of it was more that Avid was the mega-expensive old clunker, and Shake was the new innovative kid on the block where stuff was really happening... and both were Pro. While price was an issue, it seemed to be more the folks who could wrap their minds around not doing things the old way. But again, I was just kinda listening in on the conversations.

 

[SteveW928]

Blunder? by what metric. The number of Mac OS X Server sales are up since they transitioned away from XServe. They will be up further once it is just a 'add on' app to Lion.

Let me put this another way. I used to work in IT for a Fortune 100. If it weren't for the xServe hardware, it is very unlikely we would have had a cabinet and a half of xServes in our server room... or ANY OSX Server in there. The xServe was an impressive enough machine when it first came out, especially given the compact size (and our dept. was space limited), that it got a shot in an place it would not typically have. This, in turn, spurred taking Apple more seriously in general, which resulted in more Macs on users desktops and even the use of Apple laptops for nearly all the company execs (though mostly running Windows).

Respect doesn't pay the bills. The "I have a list of 25 preconditions before I will consider your product" IT folks weren't buy them.

I'm sure various IT folk wanted various features... that is par for the course. The biggest complaint I heard was that Apple didn't have a good way setup for them to be serviced. Luckily, I could literally carry our broken ones the block and a half to the Apple Store (and they didn't break often).

 

[slackpacker]

Just sounds like a bitter former Apple Employee. Ya shake was powerful but it was made for very top tier users. I'm sure sales were low and thats the reason it was canned. I would say to this guy.... blame your niche software company for allowing itself to be bought...

 

[Rodimus Prime]

Just sounds like a bitter former Apple Employee. Ya shake was powerful but it was made for very top tier users. I'm sure sales were low and thats the reason it was canned. I would say to this guy.... blame your niche software company for allowing itself to be bought...

You know your own post helps his case. The pro market is a nitch market and high end software is not going to have a large number of sales. Apple choose to dumb down the software and leave the pro market. They do not care about it any more.
They should either spin off the the pro software part of the company or sell off final cut to someone who does care about the pro market.

 

[2IS]

Ya shake was powerful but it was made for very top tier users. I'm sure sales were low and thats the reason it was canned. I would say to this guy.... blame your niche software company for allowing itself to be bought...

Very astute observation there... That's what this whole topic is about guy.

 

[ktappe]

I'm tired of the 10% nascent market of "Pro" whiners..

I love how many in this thread are putting down those "Pro" users, when it was pro designers who kept Apple alive throughout the 90's. Niche saved Apple, and now Apple is screwing niche. To top it off, Apple won't even allow 3rd parties to support niche; they bought Shake and then killed it. That's just a Richard move; why not live and let live? Make your money off of consumers and let 3rd parties support niche. But noooo....

 

[PeterQVenkman]

What will separate the cream from the crop will be the content, the story, the movie.

That's always been the case, no matter the tools.

I think Apple has the best nose for these coming trends right now.

I don't think Apple thinks that the future of filmmaking is the average computer user. I believe they think there are more average computer users (vs pros) to sell to.

Simple dollars. Sell more by going after the bigger market.

 

[Bubba Satori]

Apple buys Chrysler and immediately kills their entire product line, only to replace it with the all new Apple Car Pro X

The new Apple Car Pro X has the following features:

1. iStart: No more having to lug around a bunch of keys. The iStart is a green technology that replaces the wasteful starter motor with a completely new paradyme

2. Sleek new back end style: We've created a great new design that saves space and weight, plus it improves airflow over the back end of the car in a much more efficient manner.

3. All new driver UI: The all new steering system eliminates the ungainly steering wheel, while at the same time allowing the driver unprecedented freedom of movement.

4. iGas Station: Now your Apple Car Pro X can fill up automatically using your iTunes account at any iGas station. Gas is $.99 per gallon, $1.29 for hi-test. Plus oil changes and regular maintenance are accomplished automatically.
----------------------
Three days after launch, we find the grim realities:
1. They've replaced the keys and starter with an arm-breaking crank.
2. There's no trunk, and no means to attach a trailer hitch or roof rack.
3. They've replaced the steering wheel with a tiller. The "unprecedented" freedom of motion really means that the driver has to move around a lot to make room for the tiller to swing about.
4. No other fuel but iGas will work in the car, and it stops working if you don't agree to the terms of service.
5. If you want more than one person to use the car, you have to de-authorize it using your Apple ID and re-authorize it using the new person's Apple ID. This will result in any previously loaded iGas in the car immediately being dumped onto the ground, because it wasn't purchased with the new user's account.
6. All car sales are final, even if the car is smashed beyond recognition while it is being delivered to your home.

Apple's response: This is a great new car. Some people, especially high end users, have noticed some small issues. These issues affect only about 1% of our users, and Apple has heard their voices.

1. A few users have found issues with the iStart. We advise them to hold the iStart differently and let go as soon as the engine catches.
2. Some people have asked us if we plan to restore the storage space formerly found in the trunk. You can still move large objects. If you need to move something that won't fit into the passenger compartment, third party transit services from FedEx and UPS may be used.

Steve Job's terse email responses to user' emails:
"The trunk's gone, nobody uses them anymore anyway, so get over it."
"Hold the iStart correctly and you won;t break your arm."

Brilliant. I hope there's a Nobel prize for satire. This will win it.

 

[kultschar]

Why do I get the feeling that the next version of Logic is going to be basically Garageband?? Horrible and very scary thought.

Apple seem to be slimming down their teams, cutting out light versions of their products (& pro) and launching them as a single product in a iLife kinda way.

Make sense financially if your a business with limited funds however with Apples kinda money you would think their attitude towards Pro apps would be to make them stronger, this is clearly not the case